Did God Consider Neandertals Human?

[David Sklansky]

Just curious.

[FortunaMaximus]

Depends on what you define humanity as. Better-evolved apes or the only credible evidence of self-awareness we have on Terra.

[51cards]

zOMG!11!!!11 Evoltion is invented by the devil! Why can't you all see that!

I mean really how does a bannana turn into a monkey?!

[Lestat]

Were Neanderthals capable of sin? Answer that, and you have your answer.

[51cards]

[ QUOTE ]
Were Neanderthals capable of sin? Answer that, and you have your answer.

[/ QUOTE ]

Define sin clearly and objectively and the game is on.

[Lestat]

What's wrong with a simple transgression of divine law?

[BluffTHIS!]

Sentience doesn't imply the necessity for having a soul, though of course the converse does.

[51cards]

[ QUOTE ]
Sentience doesn't imply the necessity for having a soul, though of course the converse does.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is actually true.

Do you see why?

[David Sklansky]

Does that mean no? If so why?

[BluffTHIS!]

Because it might be the case that the only beings God regards as "human", in the sense of having an immortal soul, are Adam and Eve and their descendants. That would exclude members of other species (which Neanderthals are regarded now unlike formerly when they were thought to be a subspecies of our own), and as far as we know possible members of our own species who lived around the time of Adam and Eve. Thus there could have been beings who were intelligent but they just lived and died and that was it. This would in fact be similar to the beliefs of some but not all of the Jewish Sadduccee sect who believed that none of us has a soul that survives death.

All of this is speculation, but Catholic theology teaches that it is possible that such was the case for some, and that that possibility cannot be denied as an article of faith (cf. Fundamentals of Catholic Dogma by Dr. Ludwig Ott). And the same could be said for possible intelligent life on other planets. That is, they were created by God either directly or indirectly through evolution, but God chose not to give them souls.

While religious believers might contend that having a soul not only implies intelligence, but also the reverse, the fact that other animals have at least the intelligence of a very young human child as in the case of dolphins, which have no place in the eternal life according to scripture, would likely imply otherwise.

[malorum]

Read "the Inheritors" by Willian Golding. It's a bit dark but you'd like it, and it will help you ask the right philosphical (not theological) questions.

[malorum]

Does Catholic dogma define species???
I thought it was a scientific definition relating to the ability to inter-breed.

You suggest our understanding of Neanderthals has shifted from seeing them as a subspecies to seeing them as a seperated species.
So before the scientific shift they had souls? and afterward they didn't, or does the veracity and applicability of Dogma simply rely on somewhat arbitrary scientific speciel distinctions (because in this case we have no way of fully verifying the seperate species hypothesis according to traditional definitions)

The contemporary importance of the issue is this: If you recall not so long ago zooloogy textbooks (I still have some) tought that Aborgianl Austtalians represented a distinct species. (without a soul??)

[FortunaMaximus]

Funny you mention them. Causcasian racial profiling was flawed and retarded, to put it simply.

I think their personal philosophy on the Universe is probably better than 99% of current science. The Dreamtime.

[Mickey Brausch]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Does that mean no? If so why?


[/ QUOTE ] Because it might be the case that the only beings God regards as "human", in the sense of having an immortal soul, are Adam and Eve and their descendants. That would exclude members of other species (which Neanderthals are regarded now unlike formerly when they were thought to be a subspecies of our own), and as far as we know possible members of our own species who lived around the time of Adam and Eve. Thus there could have been beings who were intelligent but they just lived and died and that was it.

[/ QUOTE ]Actually, because we are practically identical in DNA to chimps (which means even more so to the Neandertal), the only argument you can have here is that God produced various creatures, some of which He made in His image (this would include the Neandertals) but chose to give intelligence (or Grace, whatever) only to Homo Sapiens.

Your post makes out God as being akin to a spectator ("...the only beings God regards as 'human'..."), which He clealy cannot be. He is the instigator of everything.

Mickey Brausch

[IronUnkind]

I don't know.

[David Sklansky]

Widening your lead over BluffThis.

[jogsxyz]

A good neandertal should go to heaven. Is it fair, that he is an neandertal in heaven for all of eternity?

[Dan BRIGHT]

[ QUOTE ]
A good neandertal should go to heaven. Is it fair, that he is an neandertal in heaven for all of eternity?

[/ QUOTE ]

As opposed to "part" of eternity?

[BluffTHIS!]

Some of you are focusing too much on my post where I talked about the species neanderthal is or is not. They died out before h.omo sapiens anyway and were long before biblical times even if they did inter-breed with humans to a small degree. And H. Floresiensis, the "midget humanoids", who were recently discoved and co-existed with our species until not too long ago would be more relevant to discuss anyway.

The main point is that to be considered human in the sense of having a soul, you have to be descended from Adam and Eve, and that all of their co-members of the species as well as other intelligent species didn't have to have souls as a result.

And the more interesting question than all of this neanderthal stuff is whether a future human clone would have a soul or not.

[Stu Pidasso]

[ QUOTE ]
And the more interesting question than all of this neanderthal stuff is whether a future human clone would have a soul or not.

[/ QUOTE ]

When I was a kid the first test tube baby was concieved and born. I remember the question being posed as to wether or not she had a soul.

Stu

[FortunaMaximus]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
A good neandertal should go to heaven. Is it fair, that he is an neandertal in heaven for all of eternity?

[/ QUOTE ]

As opposed to "part" of eternity?

[/ QUOTE ]

Well, part of eternity is still... eternity. I'll raise you half an infinity. /images/graemlins/tongue.gif

[madnak]

Isn't a finity part of infinity?

[FortunaMaximus]

[ QUOTE ]
Isn't a finity part of infinity?

[/ QUOTE ]

It's a subset. But, yeah.

[Shadowrun]

[ QUOTE ]
Just curious.

[/ QUOTE ]

Jews would say no, the first people considered 'humans'= adam and eve

as far as their status, it would be the same as any other animal that isnt considered human

[vhawk01]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
And the more interesting question than all of this neanderthal stuff is whether a future human clone would have a soul or not.

[/ QUOTE ]

When I was a kid the first test tube baby was concieved and born. I remember the question being posed as to wether or not she had a soul.

Stu

[/ QUOTE ]

Actually, its a really interesting discussion, because basically before the morula stage, when the embryo is like 8 cells, we could basically take each of those cells and grow an identical twin, and we could even then take the 8 cells from each of those and make 8 new identical twins, ad nauseum. So, if the embryo is a baby at fertilization...how many souls does it have? Do the souls get recreated each time we seperate these cells? Where does the soul live, in the nucleus with the germline DNA?

I suppose the quick and easy answer is the 8-cell embryo has as many souls as its gonna need because God already knows how many twins we are gonna decide to make from it. Not very satisfying, personally, but I guess omniscience ruins the fun yet again.

[Stu Pidasso]

[ QUOTE ]
I suppose the quick and easy answer is the 8-cell embryo has as many souls as its gonna need because God already knows how many twins we are gonna decide to make from it. Not very satisfying, personally, but I guess omniscience ruins the fun yet again.

[/ QUOTE ]

A simpler answer is that a single soul can be divided as long as a single embryo is divisable.

Stu

[Bill Haywood]

This was addressed on the PBS Evolution series that I was just watching with my kids.

The filmakers visited Wheaton evangelical college which was going through a controversy over evolution. Although evangelical, Wheaton is open to discussing evolution, and many of the students were suffering because their learning pushed them towards evolution, but they were worried it would threaten their faith.

So they had this guest speaker who was a hardcore evangelical Christian, but also a scientist who believed in evolution. A student asked him about one of the stumpers that evangelicals face when they entertain evolution. Since only man, not animals, has a soul, when/how did hominids receive a soul, seeing as they evolved from unsouled lesser animals.

The speaker answered like a scientist. He did not know, since he lacked evidence, but one possibility he suggested was that evolution progressed for a long time before any critter received a soul. Eventually, rather recently in evolutionary terms, God chose a hominid to enter a special relationship with him and receive souls. So extrapolating this theory to the Neandertal question, we just don't know precisely when hominids received souls, so Neandertal may or may not have had one.

So if you believe in evolution, the answer is no one knows if Neandertal was saved.

But if you are a creationist, it isn't an issue because Neandertals died out tens of thousands of years before the Earth was created, so they never really existed, hence it is a trick question asked by smart asses in sunday school, kind of like the question about whether God is powerful enough to create a rock so huge that even he couldn't move it. And we'll be talking to David's mother about inappropriate behavior in Sunday school class.

[cpk]

[ QUOTE ]
Just curious.

[/ QUOTE ]

What does "human" mean?

[JCCARL]

Rephrase question please. Many neanderthals walk the world today. Not sure they became extinct, they just went on to work for governrment.