to gamble on a flush draw or to save chips?

[Vinetou]

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, $0.02 BB (7 handed) Hand History Converter Tool (http://poker-tools.flopturnriver.com/Hand-Converter.php) from FlopTurnRiver.com (http://www.flopturnriver.com) (Format: FlopTurnRiver)

UTG ($3.09)
Hero ($5.10)
MP2 ($2.77)
CO ($3.10)
Button ($6.54)
SB ($1.16)
BB ($3.06)

Preflop: Hero is MP1 with Ahttp://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/images/smiles/club.gif, Jhttp://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/images/smiles/club.gif.
UTG calls $0.02, [color=#CC3333]Hero raises to $0.08</font>, [color=#666666]2 folds</font>, Button calls $0.08, [color=#666666]2 folds</font>, UTG calls $0.06.

Flop: ($0.27) 5http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/images/smiles/club.gif, 8http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/images/smiles/spade.gif, 4http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/images/smiles/club.gif [color=#0000FF](3 players)</font>
UTG checks, [color=#CC3333]Hero bets $0.16</font>, [color=#CC3333]Button raises to $6.46</font>, UTG folds, Hero calls $4.86 (All-In).



Final Pot: $11.75

This is a standard begginner's problem I am facing from time to time. Is call on the flop right here or not? Preflop play might be a little too aggressive, what do you think? I am more interested on play on the flop. Was this the right call? I am looking at the ddds which are great.

[pokerchap]

just fold. you haven't committed much money to the pot and your overcards are probably no good. you are most likely only drawing to a flush

[kurto]

[ QUOTE ]
This is a standard begginner's problem I am facing from time to time. Is call on the flop right here or not? Preflop play might be a little too aggressive, what do you think? I am more interested on play on the flop. Was this the right call? I am looking at the ddds which are great.


[/ QUOTE ]

PF is not too aggressive. I'm not sure why you think so.

I'm also not sure why you think your odds are great. If your opponent has nothing but a pair... then your odds are great. If he has a straight or a set, you're only going to make it about 36% of the time. In which case its a horrible call.

[kabouter]

This is a obvious fold.

[Panthro]

pushing all in with a draw = goot (assuming you have FE)
calling an all in with a draw = not so goot

[Vinetou]

You are getting 1 to 2 pot odds on a draw which are the odds for a flush draw. What about this?

[ChipStorm]

[ QUOTE ]
You are getting 1 to 2 pot odds on a draw which are the odds for a flush draw. What about this?

[/ QUOTE ]
Do your math more carefully. You're not getting close to 2:1 to call, and while you are ~2:1 to hit your flush, villain's possible set could still beat you if he fills.

When I was first learning the game and getting the math down, I used to make calls like this. To cure this tendency I used to say to myself, "You want to be in his shoes and get a call here. If you call here, YOU are the donkey."

[Jigsaws]

Easy fold.

[Shaddux]

[ QUOTE ]
Easy fold.

[/ QUOTE ]

[Vinetou]

So you never call all in on a flush draw? Or are there some exceptions?

[kabouter]

If it's worth it to call, then yeah you call a allin. Suppose you have a chance on ace high flush. There is 50$ in the pot, and $5 more will put you all in

[Vinetou]

But what odds are required for that?

[Rochus]

*grunch*

Make the preflop raise the 2+2 standard (4x bb + 1bb for each limper). The bet on the flop is fine, you're trying to control the potsize which is what you want when you got a good drawing hand. After the reraise just fold, there's no point in calling with the nut flushdraw. If my math is correct you're getting about 1.5 to 1 odds here so this should be an easy fold since you're should be getting about a coinflip for your money

And as awnsers to your questions:

- The call on the flop is wrong, just wait for a better spot to get your money in or for better odds.
- Preflop play isn't that agressive, I think you should even raise more!

If you're thinking you're getting great odds here, you're wrong. You're in a coinflip situation and if you don't improve you'll lose your stack. The question is do you want to gamboooooooool for stacks?

edit: lol my math was off =D

[kurto]

If you go all in on the flop you're going to win about 1 time in 3.

So if there's $20 in the pot and you have to call $10.. you can call.

Now if its the turn, and you have the same bet... you should not since your odds are approx 1/2 of that (1/6).

[br.bm]

If vilian has top pair only you have 15outs (9 for flush, 3 J's, 3 A's) with 2% per card and two cards to come you have:
2% x 15 x 2 = 60%

you get nearly 1:1 so the call is right

if he has two pair or trips you have only the nine flush outs

2% x 9 x 2 = 36%

so the call is wrong
I don't think vilian does this with an 8 only.

The flop bet on the other hand was fine. I like semi-bluffing with flush draws. But you should have made it pot sized though. The aim is, that vilian folds. If not you may hit your draw and play a big pot.
If you get called and dont hit, you can check behind
If you sit in front of him you can make a blockbet (for not getting raised off the hand if you check) make this 1/2 to 2/3 pot size. Fold to a big reraise.
If you dont hit on the river, you could try pure bluff (1/2 to full potsize) But I mostly get called on this.

[the_muppeteer]

[ QUOTE ]
So you never call all in on a flush draw? Or are there some exceptions?

[/ QUOTE ]

If your odds for improving your hand, is better than the amount you have to call compared to the pot, the pot odds are in your favor. This way, you will win money in the long run if you run the hand x times.
(Bad explanation, i know.. /images/graemlins/crazy.gif)

If this is all new to you, I would recommend you read some poker books, or find some teori about it online.

[Vinetou]

I understand pot odds principle and that stuff. I am not a complete begginner. I have trouble calculating it in that spots when you are faced with all in and you have nut flush draw. It is that specific example. How do you calculate odds for my example? If he has a set, I have 8 outs to my flush (1 is dead) plus I don't wanna see 7 other cards. nonouts:outs. How do you calculate then?