Any Statistics Majors out there? Need help w/ a student I have.

[Toddy]

Last weds night when I ws done tutoring a 12 year old the father pulled me aside to ask me a question. He showed me all his kids grades. It consisted of homework, assignments, and quizzes/tests. He was upset his daughters grade went from a 83 to a 78 due to the last test where she got a 12/25 (48%). He asked me if I could put together something for the daughter to present to the teacher saying 1 grade shouldn't mean that much. I guess the whole class flunked it. He was talking about standard deviation and the bell curve. Any ideas, or is she just screwed?

[TomCollins]

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Last weds night when I ws done tutoring a 12 year old the father pulled me aside to ask me a question. He showed me all his kids grades. It consisted of homework, assignments, and quizzes/tests. He was upset his daughters grade went from a 83 to a 78 due to the last test where she got a 12/25 (48%). He asked me if I could put together something for the daughter to present to the teacher saying 1 grade shouldn't mean that much. I guess the whole class flunked it. He was talking about standard deviation and the bell curve. Any ideas, or is she just screwed?

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Show the teacher your thread in OOT about trying to bang his wife, and that she has a horrible tutor and thats why shes failing.

[Toddy]

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Last weds night when I ws done tutoring a 12 year old the father pulled me aside to ask me a question. He showed me all his kids grades. It consisted of homework, assignments, and quizzes/tests. He was upset his daughters grade went from a 83 to a 78 due to the last test where she got a 12/25 (48%). He asked me if I could put together something for the daughter to present to the teacher saying 1 grade shouldn't mean that much. I guess the whole class flunked it. He was talking about standard deviation and the bell curve. Any ideas, or is she just screwed?

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Show the teacher your thread in OOT about trying to bang his wife, and that she has a horrible tutor and thats why shes failing.

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Different kid. Also i got banned from OOT i think for starring out the word [censored]. Also I think you are not allowed to make posts about pitbulls or something

[Toddy]

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Last weds night when I ws done tutoring a 12 year old the father pulled me aside to ask me a question. He showed me all his kids grades. It consisted of homework, assignments, and quizzes/tests. He was upset his daughters grade went from a 83 to a 78 due to the last test where she got a 12/25 (48%). He asked me if I could put together something for the daughter to present to the teacher saying 1 grade shouldn't mean that much. I guess the whole class flunked it. He was talking about standard deviation and the bell curve. Any ideas, or is she just screwed?

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Show the teacher your thread in OOT about trying to bang his wife, and that she has a horrible tutor and thats why shes failing.

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If some1 wnts to answer seriously thats fine, if not thats ok too. I was just asking a serious question.

[madnak]

This is more a matter of persuasion than of statistics. Go into the situation, be friendly with the teacher, watch what happens and try to get a bead on him. Then construct arguments based on what you see. Pay particular attention to his teaching goals, the goals of his institution, his perspective on educational theory, his views about "second chances," etc.

[Toddy]

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This is more a matter of persuasion than of statistics. Go into the situation, be friendly with the teacher, watch what happens and try to get a bead on him. Then construct arguments based on what you see. Pay particular attention to his teaching goals, the goals of his institution, his perspective on educational theory, his views about "second chances," etc.

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Ya im going to make something up for the girl to say, but I dind't know if there was any mathematical terms the girl could use when she talks to the teacher. Kind of a tough situation i guess. I mean her grade is her grade

[madnak]

Oh, you can't talk to him on her behalf? That's a problem. I recommend against it. She's likely to botch the application of the terms, and it's possible he'll feel threatened if she starts getting too technical. It's a nice idea in theory, of course - apply knowledge of statistics in your argument that you deserve a better statistics grade - but in practice I doubt it would come off so well.

I'd advise her to ask for make-up work or extra credit. Make it clear to him that she's determined and is willing to work hard to understand the material. And tell her to take accountability for her grade - most teachers love that. She definitely shouldn't whine or complain or argue with the teacher.

[Toddy]

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Oh, you can't talk to him on her behalf? That's a problem. I recommend against it. She's likely to botch the application of the terms, and it's possible he'll feel threatened if she starts getting too technical. It's a nice idea in theory, of course - apply knowledge of statistics in your argument that you deserve a better statistics grade - but in practice I doubt it would come off so well.

I'd advise her to ask for make-up work or extra credit. Make it clear to him that she's determined and is willing to work hard to understand the material. And tell her to take accountability for her grade - most teachers love that. She definitely shouldn't whine or complain or argue with the teacher.

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I guess the main problem is there s no extra credit and no retake of the test

[FortunaMaximus]

It depends on how many tests go into the scoring at the end of the year.

But I think an argument could be made above the teacher's head that above-average results as a whole across the whole scores is grounds enough to toss one sub-par score.

Again, it depends on which year in school the student is in. This argument has an stronger foundation if it's closer to junior or senior year of high school, for instance.

[Toddy]

7th grade. Here are the scores.

Homework 4/4
Quiz 1 19/25
Homework 4/4
Homework 4/4
Test 40/50
Homework 3/5
Quiz 22/25
Homework 6/6
Test 12/25

Sorry thought if i posted this ppl would understand more. Thx for looking so far guys

Also 7th grade

[alphatmw]

wait, are you supposed to argue that there should be a curve or that the test should be worth lesS?

[FortunaMaximus]

That one low and one high score should be tossed out at the end of the year should be the correct approach.

As it's the 7th grade, I wouldn't worry about it too much. You're going to run into unimaginative and frustrating teachers in some school systems that do what they do because they've done it the same way for the past 30 years.

Yet another flaw in the education system.

Aside: I hope you don't get in hot water with the mother, btw. Really could ruin a tutoring career that way.

[arahant]

Saw that thread and had a brief glimmer of excitement that my degree might actually have a use. Alas, i roughly agree with madnak.

But on the persuasion front, i would throw this out there...
Rare is the person that isn't moved by effort. Yes, no extra credit is available, but it can't hurt to try. I would suggest that the student write an argument and present it to the teacher. This allows you to at least look it over and have some input, though it does have to be her work (she has to care about this, not just her dad). If the teacher is a good teacher, making the argument can only help. Even if he won't change the grade, it shows she is a conscientious student CONCERNED about the grade. Teacher may relate the story to other teachers, expectations may change, etc...There is just very little downside as long as the student understands that 'trying' doesn't always work /images/graemlins/smile.gif.

As far as what the argument may be, you didn't present enough info to determine the relative weighting of tests/quizzes/homework. If everyone really did flunk the latest test, i would see where the student falls on the total distribution, and maybe make an argument that way.

[Toddy]

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Saw that thread and had a brief glimmer of excitement that my degree might actually have a use. Alas, i roughly agree with madnak.

But on the persuasion front, i would throw this out there...
Rare is the person that isn't moved by effort. Yes, no extra credit is available, but it can't hurt to try. I would suggest that the student write an argument and present it to the teacher. This allows you to at least look it over and have some input, though it does have to be her work (she has to care about this, not just her dad). If the teacher is a good teacher, making the argument can only help. Even if he won't change the grade, it shows she is a conscientious student CONCERNED about the grade. Teacher may relate the story to other teachers, expectations may change, etc...There is just very little downside as long as the student understands that 'trying' doesn't always work /images/graemlins/smile.gif.

As far as what the argument may be, you didn't present enough info to determine the relative weighting of tests/quizzes/homework. If everyone really did flunk the latest test, i would see where the student falls on the total distribution, and maybe make an argument that way.

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Ok I'll think this thru. The father really thinks im going to have a plan ready for tomorrow. The only problem is the girl said she left almost everything blank on that last test and the teacher scaled it. So she actually got me likea 3/25 than a 12/25 so i think that might be a problem since the teacher was helping them out. I do feel strongly though about having a high and low grade thrown out. 1 test shouldn't destroy u. im freaking petrified making any posts now because the toher day i posted about my pitbull and they banned me. I have no idea what is allowed and ive been posting for 2 yrs

[Jasper109]

This all seems pretty strange to me.

I've been tutoring for 20+ years, and I've never once had a parent ask me to contact a teacher and discuss anything related to the student.

Your job is to help the kid as much as you can, and it's the parents responsibility to contact the teacher if they have any issues with how the course is being taught or evaluated.

I think you might be crossing some line if you become involved in that time of situation in any significant way.

[thylacine]

[ QUOTE ]
Last weds night when I ws done tutoring a 12 year old the father pulled me aside to ask me a question. He showed me all his kids grades. It consisted of homework, assignments, and quizzes/tests. He was upset his daughters grade went from a 83 to a 78 due to the last test where she got a 12/25 (48%). He asked me if I could put together something for the daughter to present to the teacher saying 1 grade shouldn't mean that much. I guess the whole class flunked it. He was talking about standard deviation and the bell curve. Any ideas, or is she just screwed?

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It is totally inappropriate to attempt to coerce the teacher in any way whatsoever. You should give the teacher credit for already having thought of and having taken into consideration everything that you could possibly come up with. I am absolutely serious about this.



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Ok I'll think this thru. The father really thinks im going to have a plan ready for tomorrow. The only problem is the girl said she left almost everything blank on that last test and the teacher scaled it. So she actually got me like a 3/25 than a 12/25 so i think that might be a problem since the teacher was helping them out. I do feel strongly though about having a high and low grade thrown out. 1 test shouldn't destroy u.

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How could you not have known this right from the beginning. Why wasn't this in your original post. Did the kid lie to you? This whole situation reeks.

[Toddy]

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[ QUOTE ]
Last weds night when I ws done tutoring a 12 year old the father pulled me aside to ask me a question. He showed me all his kids grades. It consisted of homework, assignments, and quizzes/tests. He was upset his daughters grade went from a 83 to a 78 due to the last test where she got a 12/25 (48%). He asked me if I could put together something for the daughter to present to the teacher saying 1 grade shouldn't mean that much. I guess the whole class flunked it. He was talking about standard deviation and the bell curve. Any ideas, or is she just screwed?

[/ QUOTE ]

It is totally inappropriate to attempt to coerce the teacher in any way whatsoever. You should give the teacher credit for already having thought of and having taken into consideration everything that you could possibly come up with. I am absolutely serious about this.



[ QUOTE ]
Ok I'll think this thru. The father really thinks im going to have a plan ready for tomorrow. The only problem is the girl said she left almost everything blank on that last test and the teacher scaled it. So she actually got me like a 3/25 than a 12/25 so i think that might be a problem since the teacher was helping them out. I do feel strongly though about having a high and low grade thrown out. 1 test shouldn't destroy u.

[/ QUOTE ]

How could you not have known this right from the beginning. Why wasn't this in your original post. Did the kid lie to you? This whole situation reeks.

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No my bad I was just looing at the sheet w/ teh grades and it is written on there. Also, I'm not talking to the teacher. The father wanted me to come up w/ a gameplan for the girl, Kelsey to talk tot he teacher in a Mathematical way so she can get her grade up. She can't do a makeup, she can't do extra credit. Ugh.. There's not much of a gameplan I can give her.

[thylacine]

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Last weds night when I ws done tutoring a 12 year old the father pulled me aside to ask me a question. He showed me all his kids grades. It consisted of homework, assignments, and quizzes/tests. He was upset his daughters grade went from a 83 to a 78 due to the last test where she got a 12/25 (48%). He asked me if I could put together something for the daughter to present to the teacher saying 1 grade shouldn't mean that much. I guess the whole class flunked it. He was talking about standard deviation and the bell curve. Any ideas, or is she just screwed?

[/ QUOTE ]

It is totally inappropriate to attempt to coerce the teacher in any way whatsoever. You should give the teacher credit for already having thought of and having taken into consideration everything that you could possibly come up with. I am absolutely serious about this.



[ QUOTE ]
Ok I'll think this thru. The father really thinks im going to have a plan ready for tomorrow. The only problem is the girl said she left almost everything blank on that last test and the teacher scaled it. So she actually got me like a 3/25 than a 12/25 so i think that might be a problem since the teacher was helping them out. I do feel strongly though about having a high and low grade thrown out. 1 test shouldn't destroy u.

[/ QUOTE ]

How could you not have known this right from the beginning. Why wasn't this in your original post. Did the kid lie to you? This whole situation reeks.

[/ QUOTE ]

No my bad I was just looing at the sheet w/ teh grades and it is written on there. Also, I'm not talking to the teacher. The father wanted me to come up w/ a gameplan for the girl, Kelsey to talk tot he teacher in a Mathematical way so she can get her grade up. She can't do a makeup, she can't do extra credit. Ugh.. There's not much of a gameplan I can give her.

[/ QUOTE ]

Hey, I'm curious to hear how this goes. Let us know. I predict the teacher will see through it instantly, and any any attempt by the daughter to make a mathematical argument will make her look foolish as well as disingenuous.

BTW what does the father do for a living. He sounds like a complete *-hole to me. He may be obsessed with his daughter's grade but he couldn't give a flying fk about her education. He is a bad parent.

[Lestat]

Well even if you could put together something, the teacher has an iron clad out by stating that his tests are sometimes weighted. You're better off proving that this test was no more important than the others she took. THEN... The father can make his case.

[Toddy]

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Well even if you could put together something, the teacher has an iron clad out by stating that his tests are sometimes weighted. You're better off proving that this test was no more important than the others she took. THEN... The father can make his case.

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Okay i have to be there at 5pm hopefully I can get something together for her.

[FortunaMaximus]

Ever consider going into private tutoring, getting your wife in on the gig if she'll commit to the English, and liberal arts portions? Seems to me you've found a niche where you could supplement homeschooling high-falootin' families.

Just a thought.

[Toddy]

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Ever consider going into private tutoring, getting your wife in on the gig if she'll commit to the English, and liberal arts portions? Seems to me you've found a niche where you could supplement homeschooling high-falootin' families.

Just a thought.

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Ill run it by her

[FortunaMaximus]

Cool. GL.

[CityFan]

I don't know the US education system, so I don't know if year 7 is somehow a significant year and the results important.

For most years though, does it matter? I mean surely the whole point of grades is to inform the parents, anyway?

[FortunaMaximus]

Final two years of Amnerican high schools are pretty much a qualifying standard for universities.

The UK filters the streams earlier, right? I know here in Ontario, they start three streams in Grade 9 (13-14 y/o) and while the implementation has been rocky, it's fairly recent and should make our economy more efficient.

[Toddy]

Also, if the tutoring company gives me $28/hr how much do you think the parents have to pay the company?

[CityFan]

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7th grade. Here are the scores.

Homework 4/4
Quiz 1 19/25
Homework 4/4
Homework 4/4
Test 40/50
Homework 3/5
Quiz 22/25
Homework 6/6
Test 12/25

Sorry thought if i posted this ppl would understand more. Thx for looking so far guys

Also 7th grade

[/ QUOTE ]

Mmm... if I were the teacher, I'd be very reluctant to drop the final test score. First I ignore all homework scores...

Quiz 1 19/25
Test 40/50
Quiz 22/25
Test 12/25

You can't trust homework socres, you see. Parents can help.

Then, yes, the final test score is below average. But that's the whole idea of an average, isn't it? If the student were that good, she wouldn't have got the low score.

Plus, is it not suspicious that she gets full marks so many of the homeworks, but not on the tests?

I think the father should chill out.

[FortunaMaximus]

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Also, if the tutoring company gives me $28/hr how much do you think the parents have to pay the company?

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Depends on how many tutors they keep in their stable, but I'd guess $12/hr. Clients likey flatrates.

[CityFan]

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Final two years of Amnerican high schools are pretty much a qualifying standard for universities.

The UK filters the streams earlier, right? I know here in Ontario, they start three streams in Grade 9 (13-14 y/o) and while the implementation has been rocky, it's fairly recent and should make our economy more efficient.

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We have public exams which are qualifiers for university. Homework grades are for internal use.

[FortunaMaximus]

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Final two years of Amnerican high schools are pretty much a qualifying standard for universities.

The UK filters the streams earlier, right? I know here in Ontario, they start three streams in Grade 9 (13-14 y/o) and while the implementation has been rocky, it's fairly recent and should make our economy more efficient.

[/ QUOTE ]

We have public exams which are qualifiers for university. Homework grades are for internal use.

[/ QUOTE ]

Shame I didn't grow up there then. Ah, well. Probably took a more interesting road.

[CityFan]

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Final two years of Amnerican high schools are pretty much a qualifying standard for universities.

The UK filters the streams earlier, right? I know here in Ontario, they start three streams in Grade 9 (13-14 y/o) and while the implementation has been rocky, it's fairly recent and should make our economy more efficient.

[/ QUOTE ]

We have public exams which are qualifiers for university. Homework grades are for internal use.

[/ QUOTE ]

Shame I didn't grow up there then. Ah, well. Probably took a more interesting road.

[/ QUOTE ]

lol, yeah it's great. Piss around for two years then get judged on a few three hour exams (plus coursework obv) /images/graemlins/laugh.gif

[Toddy]

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Also, if the tutoring company gives me $28/hr how much do you think the parents have to pay the company?

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Depends on how many tutors they keep in their stable, but I'd guess $12/hr. Clients likey flatrates.

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What do you mean $12/hr? I get paid $28 being the tutor. The parents pay the company and the company pays me. Do you think the parents pay upwards of $50?

[FortunaMaximus]

No, their margin should probably be $12/hour if they're running multiple tutors. So they'd pay $40/hr minimum. If they do, in fact, set it higher, then you've got a niche where you can undercut established agencies.

[HajiShirazu]

Standard deviation and the bell curve in 7th grade? Ouch.

[Toddy]

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No, their margin should probably be $12/hour if they're running multiple tutors. So they'd pay $40/hr minimum. If they do, in fact, set it higher, then you've got a niche where you can undercut established agencies.

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Im alredy in good w/ the parents . I was already tihnking of this for next year. Have them call me direct.

[FortunaMaximus]

Undercut it, bump your scale to $35, and you've given yourself an increase and with the family dynamics you mentioned in OOT, it's a given they have good networking.

[Toddy]

So i guess ill just tell the father tonight that there is nothing she can really do if the test was already scaled.