$50 NL do you call with 55 or 88 preflop here?

[HBomb]

http://www.pokerhand.org/?583204

Ok, so I won the hand... but that's not the point. My question is regarding whether you call preflop with the hands that these guys lost with. I think they should've been able to realize that at best they are looking at a 50/50 situation... and if not, 80-20. Given that they did call, how would you feel with 88 after 2 guys are probably going to be all in as soon as you go all in.

[pokerchap]

what a hand. should be in BBV. i usually don't call 8 big blinds when i am playing for set value.

[uminchu]

with all those people in i may call there

[sputum]

I'd fold the 55 to that raise but defo call with the 88. You're both pretty deep and he's closing the action.
Flop plays itself without reads.

[kurto]

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My question is regarding whether you call preflop with the hands that these guys lost with. I think they should've been able to realize that at best they are looking at a 50/50 situation... and if not, 80-20.

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Your stats about the odds are only relevent if this is a tourney and its all going in preflop. Since everyone involved is deep enough, the 5-10 rule applies.

FYI- 55 is no different then 88... they are calling to hit a set. Everyone played this hand correctly. You got really lucky to have the perfect flop. I imagine the odds of this are probably like 10,000 to 1.

[ActionStan]

I think you're often playing 55 there as well. Any small pair really looking to make a set. Everyone was deep enough to warrant playing. With the raise to $4 it's pretty clear you're up against a big hand and only continueing with a set.

Perfect flop for KK. Couldn't ask for anything better.

[jonyy6788]

Sick flop and these are definitely playable preflop if I think you will stack off with QQ-AA.

[orange]

BBV

[sputum]

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I think you're often playing 55 there as well.

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I'm not. 7bb to call in a multiway pot with only 100BB and a guy behind us who'll probably call. The family pot may well scare the big pair away from stacking off postflop and although set over set is rare you get trashed when it happens.
88 has 170BB and KK covers. That's more like it.

[ymu]

It's definitely close for the 55 hand (8% of his stack), but with a caller in front of him (albeit a shortstack) and a possible caller behind that covers him he does have the odds to play this for set value. It's an easy call for 88 - it's less than 5% of his stack and the PFR covers, with two other callers who may stack off if he hits.

[kurto]

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It's definitely close for the 55 hand (8% of his stack), but with a caller in front of him (albeit a shortstack) and a possible caller behind that covers him he does have the odds to play this for set value. It's an easy call for 88 - it's less than 5% of his stack and the PFR covers, with two other callers who may stack off if he hits.

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I don't see why you're making a distintion between 55 and 88. You are playing them both for set value. Their worth is relatively equal.

[Jigsaws]

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I don't see why you're making a distintion between 55 and 88. You are playing them both for set value. Their worth is relatively equal.

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Stack sizes.

Anyhow, I wouldn't be in this situation, because I'd raise 55/88 preflop, and then I'd fold to your reraise.

[Shaddux]

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http://www.pokerhand.org/?583204

Ok, so I won the hand... but that's not the point. My question is regarding whether you call preflop with the hands that these guys lost with. I think they should've been able to realize that at best they are looking at a 50/50 situation... and if not, 80-20. Given that they did call, how would you feel with 88 after 2 guys are probably going to be all in as soon as you go all in.

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I don't have my pt stats on this computer, but if I recall correctly, you are an ultra nit, so I'm folding everything except QQ+.

On a serious note, I dont care how I'm favored when I play med-low pairs because I am playing for set value. If I have 88, flop a set, and two others are AI, I feel great.

[kurto]

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I don't see why you're making a distintion between 55 and 88. You are playing them both for set value. Their worth is relatively equal.

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Stack sizes.



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Not sure I understand you answer... "stacksizes"... the stacksizes make no difference... that is, if your stacksize justifies calling with 88 then it also justifies calling with 55.

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Anyhow, I wouldn't be in this situation, because I'd raise 55/88 preflop, and then I'd fold to your reraise.

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If you're first in... and 6 max. Raising 55 in EP (6 max or full ring) to then fold to any reraise seems silly. (I play full ring)... I like limping with them precisely because I can almost always be priced in to call ONE raise with small PPs... where if I raise them and I get reraised, if the reraise is a decent size, I get priced out of calling. (I play full ring so this may be totally different then 6 max strategy.)

[kaz2107]

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I don't see why you're making a distintion between 55 and 88. You are playing them both for set value. Their worth is relatively equal.

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Stack sizes.

Anyhow, I wouldn't be in this situation, because I'd raise 55/88 preflop, and then I'd fold to your reraise.

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qft
the stack sizes are crucial here. u make more based on ur relative stack when u hit ur set thus calling when relative stacks are 200bbs instead of 100 is HUGE!!!!

[Jigsaws]

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Stack sizes.

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Not sure I understand you answer... "stacksizes"... the stacksizes make no difference... that is, if your stacksize justifies calling with 88 then it also justifies calling with 55.

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He's talking about the stack sizes in this particular hand, where 55 has 100BBs, 88 175BBs, and KK covers. That's what I meant. So 88 is an easier call than 55 here.

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If you're first in... and 6 max. Raising 55 in EP (6 max or full ring) to then fold to any reraise seems silly. (I play full ring)... I like limping with them precisely because I can almost always be priced in to call ONE raise with small PPs... where if I raise them and I get reraised, if the reraise is a decent size, I get priced out of calling. (I play full ring so this may be totally different then 6 max strategy.)

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Right, I don't know about FR. But in 6-max raising 55 UTG and folding to a pot-sized reraise is fine, since I'm not getting implied odds for set value.

[the_muppeteer]

I would call with 88 if I was JEDIMASTER. Simply because you were both big stacked.
If you do the math, both you and your opp. need 10x the raise for it to be profitable calling if you think your up against a better PP. (Can't show any proofs on this, read it in some forum :|)

So with 80 behind, up against someone who covered me, I would easily call a $4 raise.

NH btw /images/graemlins/wink.gif

[kurto]

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He's talking about the stack sizes in this particular hand, where 55 has 100BBs, 88 175BBs, and KK covers. That's what I meant. So 88 is an easier call than 55 here.


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I thought they meant in general.

Though even with this hand, if the guy with 55 thinks he can get his whole stack in if he hits, I think he's good. By the time it comes around to him again, he's got to call $3.5 into a pot of $9.25. And its going to be a multi-way pot. Though he probably wishes he folded, I think 55 has to call.

[sputum]

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if the guy with 55 thinks he can get his whole stack in if he hits, I think he's good.

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He has to get his stack in a lot of the time when he hits.
He misses 87ish % of the time (around 7 in 8) for a loss of $24. The time he hits he has to average this plus rake and profit. Any set over sets are pretty much -$50ish a time, a lot of pots you hit best will be <80% (monotone flops, straight flops etc)
HU against a big pair itching to stack himself it's an easy call. 4-handed someone will often either have you toasted as here or have enough equity in the pot to hurt your implied odds sufficiently to render this an EV- call IMO. Close though, and these are only quick estimates.

[ChipStorm]

I call with both. The 88 is an easy call as we close the action and are deep. (That said, I would probably raise with both when the action gets to me; I would almost certainly raise the 55 OTB.)

Whether to call the raise with 55 is closer. Our stack makes it a closer call to play for the set, and very importantly we're not closing the action. But we have no reason to believe SB will LRR, so not closing isn't that much of a concern. And we will have position for the rest of the hand on the preflop raiser. 5/10 rule makes this one a judgement call. While it's not clear-cut, I'd call and play for it.

[sputum]

HA HA you would've lost your stack /images/graemlins/tongue.gif
I don't think you'll be losing much if anything longterm calling here. I just look for better places to get in, and they are plentiful (and marginal ones like this take attention away from my other tables /images/graemlins/grin.gif)
If flopping a set meant winning the hand I'd be in there. The rare(ish) occurences it doesnt cost more than a lot of people think (well, you know what I mean)
I'd like to see some numbers/estimates of how much you think you'll make here (given no more flop action and the other two players a couple of rundown hands like 77 and JTs)
How +EV a call is this?