Neteller Update...

[Sniper]

This morning Neteller released their 3rd Qtr financial information (http://investors.neteller.com/neteller/upload/PressreleaseQ3tradingupdate31oct06FINAL.pdf) , their press release contained the following statement from Ron Martin, President & CEO (emphasis mine)...

“NETELLER has performed well during the third quarter of 2006, continuing to grow its business both geographically and extend its reach to new customers and merchants. However, the impact of the recently passed Unlawful Internet Gambling Enforcement Act in the US is likely to change the future direction and nature of our business fundamentally. While we have continued to see strong sign ups and fees during October, NETELLER is constantly re-examining its position with regard to the US market and its provision of services to that market is currently under review. As previously stated, NETELLER, a company registered outside the US, will comply with the Act and its related regulations as if it were subject to the Act’s jurisdiction. We will keep our shareholders, merchants, customers and employees informed of any developments during this challenging period.”

This is not really new news to those closely following other statements, but it does further reinforce that Neteller is likely to pull out of the US market in the not too distant future.

[MagCFO]

yeah, I'm not sure why people think Neteller is going to be around. 2 problems, 1) it would be very easy for the US Government to demand banks not do business with neteller, and 2) THEY HAVE SAID THEY WILL COMPLY WITH THE LAW.

[4_2_it]

I guess I should use my points to enter those drawings soon.

[PoorLawyer]

[ QUOTE ]
NETELLER is constantly re-examining its position with regard to the US market and its provision of services to that market is currently under review.[/b]

it does further reinforce that Neteller is likely to pull out of the US market in the not too distant future.

[/ QUOTE ]


under review sounds to me like they are keeping their options open and not necessarily pulling out soon.

[Beavis68]

I woudnt be surprised if they dump Barclays and find a bank in Antigua or some such place and relocate.

[I_C_ALL]

Too optimistic. If they are disclosing this to investors, its basically a heads up. I'm not in the "sky is falling" camp... Just in the prudent, make other arrangements in case of worst case scenario camp.

My opinion, they would not post negative "possible" news to investors after what happened to poker stocks' shares after pulling out of the U.S. unless it was a serious consideration. Probably not a done deal, but I'm leaning closer to pulling out than not. ;-) Have a backup.

[scscoach]

Suggestions for a backup?

[MiltonFriedman]

You over-estimate the abilities and capacities of the Banks in Antigua.

A more likely scenario is a spin-off of the US facing business, operated through a Banking facility in the Mediterranean ..... Ironic how this "anti-terrorism" Act is driving cashflows closer to a Middle Eastern sphere of influence.

[Jerry D]

Will they let me use Neteller for the gaming sites that are ALLOWED under the legislation? For instance why wouldn't Neteller (or Firepay which left the US) let me use them to fund Horse Racing, Lotteries or Fantasy Sports? I can legally bet on these in the US so why won't Neteller (or Firepay) let me use them to fund these gaming sites that are allowed under the legislation?

[I_C_ALL]

Foreign bank. Search my previous posts. There was a thread on this I referred to. Someone with a foreign bank account responded to me. I remember there being some "problem" using a canadian bank, but can't remember where I read that. I could be wrong, but the islands are closer to me anyway. As long as you disclose to the treasury and report taxes, there shouldn't be a problem.

Of course, the USA could come after you if they deem you are gambling and decide to prosecute, but I believe someone else stated your tax return could not be used against you due to self incrimination and there has not been any attempts at the government prosecuting "Joe Gambler". I could be wrong with everything, so do your own research...

/images/graemlins/wink.gif

[jrz1972]

Sure, one alternative is to go through the hassle of opening a foreign bank account so you can keep using Neteller.

Another alternative is to just go with another ewallet. That seems seems a lot simpler to me.

[Beavis68]

[ QUOTE ]
You over-estimate the abilities and capacities of the Banks in Antigua.

A more likely scenario is a spin-off of the US facing business, operated through a Banking facility in the Mediterranean ..... Ironic how this "anti-terrorism" Act is driving cashflows closer to a Middle Eastern sphere of influence.

[/ QUOTE ]

Well, I wouldnt be surprised if I were wrong either, but since Pokerstars seems to be able to function in spite of this law without pressure from whomever is holding it's money to comply with US regulations, it seems that Neteller may be able to find a similar situation.

We would still have to be able to get our money from our bank TO neteller but if I can transfer from site to site, and I will still be fairly happy.

[I_C_ALL]

1. Its not a hassle
2. Why would I still use Neteller through a foreign bank?
3. Good excuse to go to the islands /images/graemlins/tongue.gif

[dragonystic]

[ QUOTE ]
Of course, the USA could come after you if they deem you are gambling and decide to prosecute...

[/ QUOTE ]

Why do people keep posting things like this? The new legislation doesn't change the legality of online poker.

[I_C_ALL]

Dude, don't take my [censored] out of context. Read the rest of the paragraph. It was obviously meant for "chicken littles" and morons like you to respond to. I was simply stating it was a POSSIBILITY as remote as its likely hood of happening may be. Every government official's response has indicated they believe online poker is already illegal so prosecution, though to my knowledge has not happened before and a very small chance of happening, is a possibility. If you read my response, I was indicating it was NOT a concern of mine. I can only imagine what your other 6 posts were about. /images/graemlins/tongue.gif

[greg nice]

[ QUOTE ]
I guess I should use my points to enter those drawings soon.

[/ QUOTE ]

just used all 5m of mine last week and for month of oct

[4_2_it]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I guess I should use my points to enter those drawings soon.

[/ QUOTE ]

just used all 5m of mine last week and for month of oct

[/ QUOTE ]

Guess I'll wait until November /images/graemlins/grin.gif

[adios]

Simple fact, Neteller doesn't know what it has to do to comply with the law. The situation will remain unclear as long as the new regulations are on the drawing board. Until that time, there's not really much they can or will do IMO. It's a standard boiler plate warning.

I would guess that Neteller is anticipating some sort of regulation that U.S. banks can't do any direct transactions with any entities that do direct transactions with entities that run "gambling" sites. Seems complicated doesn't it? In other words, I'm guessing that Neteller is anticipating the regulations to state that if an e-wallet has direct transactions with a "gambling" site, U.S. banks will not be able to do direct transactions with that e-wallet.

As I've stated several times, I'm fairly certain that the U.S. government will try to make U.S. banks quasi regulators. How far will U.S. banks have to go to make sure that the money leaving the bank is not going to a "gambling" site? I'm sure the U.S. government would like to put as much responsibility as they possibly can on U.S. banks for making sure it's not going to a "gambling" site. I'm also fairly certain U.S. banks will try and have that responsibility limited as much as possible. BluffThis's workaround I think is probably going to be viable more or less. It's just a question of how many people want to jump through the hoops so to speak IMO.

[vinyard]

[ QUOTE ]
\As I've stated several times, I'm fairly certain that the U.S. government will try to make U.S. banks quasi regulators. How far will U.S. banks have to go to make sure that the money leaving the bank is not going to a "gambling" site? I'm sure the U.S. government would like to put as much responsibility as they possibly can on U.S. banks for making sure it's not going to a "gambling" site. I'm also fairly certain U.S. banks will try and have that responsibility limited as much as possible. BluffThis's workaround I think is probably going to be viable more or less. It's just a question of how many people want to jump through the hoops so to speak IMO.

[/ QUOTE ]
My emphasis in bold: This ignores at least the last four decades of federal regulation of the banking sector. The Federal govt. even under Carter has shied away from increasing expenses and regulation for banks. The banking lobby in this country is mammoth; its niave to expect that they will deliberately increase their own expenses at the cost of their bottom line.

PS If somebody could link me to Bluffthis! workaround I would appreciate it.

[5thStreetHog]

Its kind of obvious neteller will eventually fold.I,im sure like others,have used neteller exclusively since i started playing poker online.I was thinking about firing up a new ewallet service.I know this is all speculation,but in your mind`s what service would you think would have the best odds of staying the course through all this nonsence?Click2Pay?EPassPorte? other?Like i said,i realize this is all guesswork,just would like to hear some thoughts on the options currently available.Obviously,companies could appear to fill this "neteller" void as well.But as the landscape exists now,who looks like the frontrunner to stay in this fight?

[adios]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
\As I've stated several times, I'm fairly certain that the U.S. government will try to make U.S. banks quasi regulators. How far will U.S. banks have to go to make sure that the money leaving the bank is not going to a "gambling" site? I'm sure the U.S. government would like to put as much responsibility as they possibly can on U.S. banks for making sure it's not going to a "gambling" site. I'm also fairly certain U.S. banks will try and have that responsibility limited as much as possible. BluffThis's workaround I think is probably going to be viable more or less. It's just a question of how many people want to jump through the hoops so to speak IMO.

[/ QUOTE ]
My emphasis in bold: This ignores at least the last four decades of federal regulation of the banking sector. The Federal govt. even under Carter has shied away from increasing expenses and regulation for banks. The banking lobby in this country is mammoth; its niave to expect that they will deliberately increase their own expenses at the cost of their bottom line.

PS If somebody could link me to Bluffthis! workaround I would appreciate it.

[/ QUOTE ]

I agree with you totally about the banking industry and the lobby. In fact Sniper posted a link to some statements by Bernanke about not being careful to not have the banks incur too many costs. It wasn't about the UIGE law specifically but to me it's clear that Bernanke, the guy who heads up the key organization in developing the new regulations, that he doesn't want to impose a great deal more overhead on the banks. However, I'm fairly certain (could be convinced otherwise) that the current DOJ would like to do exactly that. I'm fairly optimistic that the new regulations for the banks won't really change things all that much. From my understanding U.S. banks refuse transactions with "gambling" sites now. Obviously the new law seeks to put more responsibility on U.S. banks to make sure that money leaving the bank doesn't go to internet gambling.

[Sniper]

adios, I think we are basically in agreement over what is likely to occur, and on understanding that we really won't know until the Regs at least start being discussed.

That said, I want to comment on this section of your post...

[ QUOTE ]
I would guess that Neteller is anticipating some sort of regulation that U.S. banks can't do any direct transactions with any entities that do direct transactions with entities that run "gambling" sites. Seems complicated doesn't it? In other words, I'm guessing that Neteller is anticipating the regulations to state that if an e-wallet has direct transactions with a "gambling" site, U.S. banks will not be able to do direct transactions with that e-wallet.

[/ QUOTE ]

It's my opinion, that the Regs won't have to prohibit transactions with e-wallets for us to see Neteller remove itself from I-Gaming transactions. At this time, I fully expect that Neteller will act as if it is a bank subject to the Regs... and if the Regs say no business with I-Gaming sites, then Neteller will pull out of those transactions.

[BluffTHIS!]

Sniper,

I have said before in my "Phone card in and Neteller out thread" which is in the sticky, that even if Neteller chooses becauseof the regs not to facilitate deposits to poker sites, nothing in the new legislation and thus the regs can prevent them from facilitating cashouts from what I have read re the interpretations of same.

So maybe they won't even want to see if this is an option. But if they do, then should could still continue to have a big part in the business. Most players might not like longer depositing times that will result if all e-wallets get out, but what they like least is long cashout times. Neteller could still fill that role. And I think it is certain that even if the Fed puts the max burden on banks in scanning all outgoing funds, they aren't going to and don't even have a basis to, do so with incoming transactions.

[StellarWind]

[ QUOTE ]
It's my opinion, that the Regs won't have to prohibit transactions with e-wallets for us to see Neteller remove itself from I-Gaming transactions. At this time, I fully expect that Neteller will act as if it is a bank subject to the Regs... and if the Regs say no business with I-Gaming sites, then Neteller will pull out of those transactions.

[/ QUOTE ]
Exactly. Neteller is clearly stating their intention to comply with the upcoming banking regulations as if they were a U.S. financial institution.

You are not going to see UIGEA regs requiring banks to block deposits to e-wallets. People speculating about the banking lobby blocking such regs are overlooking the obvious--they already did it. They got their protections put into the law itself. The UIGEA only provides for blocking illegal gambling sites and their captive financial institutions. Regulations that cause legitimate transactions to be blocked are specifically disallowed. Any UIGEA regulation blocking transfers to independent financial institutions such as typical e-wallets violates the plain language of the law that created it and is unlikely to last long in court.

[Sniper]

Bluff,

First, the majority of people are moving money in and not moving money out /images/graemlins/wink.gif

Second, the problem for successful players is that they use e-wallets to move money from one site to another... which would not be possible in your scenario.

Of course, there may be some players that simply make large deposits into the poker sites and then only have to worry about how to get profits out... but I think this is a minority.... and the value of reload bonuses will go down significantly.

[BluffTHIS!]

You are right that the e-wallets greatly facilitate moving money between sites and allowing a shared bankroll instead of having to keep enough on any individual site to be properly rolled for a given stakes.

The big question is whether ACH transactions end up getting filtered or not. If not, then our bank accounts will just have to function as an e-wallet formerly did. The only advantage neteller has now over an e-check is quick transaction time instead of waiting for a transaction to clear.

As I have said in the past, the sports books are the ones with the biggest incentives to come up with creative ways to keep moving the money around. All they need to do is find one honest private bank in a juridiction that won't extradite for this stuff (i.e. Costa Rica, Antigua, etc.), to make a new e-wallet site or provide services just for themselves.

[Hock_]

[ QUOTE ]
and if the Regs say no business with I-Gaming sites

[/ QUOTE ]

You don't get it. The regs aren't going to say "no business with I-gaming sites." If that were the obligation then Congress would've put it in the statute and left it at that. That's why they need regs -- more detailed rules about exactly what financial institutions must do to screen and block transactions. The whole point is that it's extremely complicated and, according to the industry, maybe impossible. All Neteller is doing is saying that it will be a good little corporate citizen, so as not to piss off the government for no reason, and then it can decide what exactly it will do once the regs are promulgated.

If I had to bet, my wager would be that Neteller is not going to roll over and right now believes that the regs will not require it to exit the market.

Everyone who says that Neteller's statements are tantamount to saying that it's going to disappear are just plain wrong.

[Hock_]

[ QUOTE ]
THEY HAVE SAID THEY WILL COMPLY WITH THE LAW.

[/ QUOTE ]

Nobody knows what THE LAW is going to be or what it's going to require.

So much misinformation . . .

[5thStreetHog]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
and if the Regs say no business with I-Gaming sites

[/ QUOTE ]If I had to bet, my wager would be that Neteller is not going to roll over and right now believes that the regs will not require it to exit the market.

[/ QUOTE ]If i had to bet,id bet they are going to roll over and that they believe the exact opposite,but i hope your right.

[BluffTHIS!]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
THEY HAVE SAID THEY WILL COMPLY WITH THE LAW.

[/ QUOTE ]

Nobody knows what THE LAW is going to be or what it's going to require.

So much misinformation . . .

[/ QUOTE ]


Hock,

Here's the thing to me although this is a non-lawyer's opinion. Either RIGHT NOW THIS VERY MINUTE the law makes Neteller facilitating transactions to the sites remaining in the US market illegal or it does not. It isn't the regs that define what is legal, but how the law can be enforced. So whether or not the regs are effective in carrying out the legal intent of the law or not doesn't matter as far as just the question of legality. Even if Neteller were to exit the US market later, they would still have broken the law right now. Just like a bank robber who stopped robbing banks and later says since he stopped he shouldn't be considered a robber right now. And ditto for the sites still in the US market who might withdraw later.

Neteller has a good reputation for honesty and security, and if they don't want to have their business gutted or undergo the risk of the DoJ having a contrary legal interpreation than them pre or post regs, then they should be seeking to change their coporate domicile to a friendlier place, and probably as well to take themselves private again. Otherwise some other concern will rise up to fill the void and take that business.

[Sniper]

[ QUOTE ]
Everyone who says that Neteller's statements are tantamount to saying that it's going to disappear are just plain wrong.

[/ QUOTE ]

I think you are misunderstanding what Neteller is saying, and the comments posted here.

No one is saying Neteller is going to "disappear"... however, Neteller is saying that its business is likely to be significantly changed by the Regs.

If you have an i-gaming backroll, it is important to stay on top of these statements...

[whangarei]

[ QUOTE ]

No one is saying Neteller is going to "disappear"... however, Neteller is saying that its business is likely to be significantly changed by the Regs.

If you have an i-gaming backroll, it is important to stay on top of these statements...

[/ QUOTE ]

Ever the optimist, "likely to be significantly changed" could be something like a spin-off of their US facing business into a private company. Of course the simplist interpretation though is that they will bail like Firepay.

[MagCFO]

I'm in this business, so trust me I hope neteller stays around. But, from what they are saying and what I am hearing, they won't be.

The arguments about the actual wording of the law, and how e-wallets are exempt, etc is just wishful thinking.

Here's the thing.

Neteller has warned shareholders that there business my be significantly changed. Also, they have said they will comply with the laws, which unlike someone tried to post, HAVE been written.

The law is, financial instituation can not do business with gaming sites. Neteller says they will comply as if they were located in the US.

So do you think if Neteller was located in the US, they would be legal? Uh, no.

I'm done with the subject, but you guys feel free to continue trying to figure out who neteller will still be around, although they've already said they won't be.

[adios]

[ QUOTE ]
adios, I think we are basically in agreement over what is likely to occur, and on understanding that we really won't know until the Regs at least start being discussed.

That said, I want to comment on this section of your post...

[ QUOTE ]
I would guess that Neteller is anticipating some sort of regulation that U.S. banks can't do any direct transactions with any entities that do direct transactions with entities that run "gambling" sites. Seems complicated doesn't it? In other words, I'm guessing that Neteller is anticipating the regulations to state that if an e-wallet has direct transactions with a "gambling" site, U.S. banks will not be able to do direct transactions with that e-wallet.

[/ QUOTE ]

It's my opinion, that the Regs won't have to prohibit transactions with e-wallets for us to see Neteller remove itself from I-Gaming transactions. At this time, I fully expect that Neteller will act as if it is a bank subject to the Regs... and if the Regs say no business with I-Gaming sites, then Neteller will pull out of those transactions.

[/ QUOTE ]

Maybe but aren't the banks restricted from doing business with Internet sites now? Don't know for sure.

[Hock_]

[ QUOTE ]
Here's the thing to me although this is a non-lawyer's opinion. Either RIGHT NOW THIS VERY MINUTE the law makes Neteller facilitating transactions to the sites remaining in the US market illegal or it does not. It isn't the regs that define what is legal, but how the law can be enforced. So whether or not the regs are effective in carrying out the legal intent of the law or not doesn't matter as far as just the question of legality. Even if Neteller were to exit the US market later, they would still have broken the law right now. Just like a bank robber who stopped robbing banks and later says since he stopped he shouldn't be considered a robber right now. And ditto for the sites still in the US market who might withdraw later.

Neteller has a good reputation for honesty and security, and if they don't want to have their business gutted or undergo the risk of the DoJ having a contrary legal interpreation than them pre or post regs, then they should be seeking to change their coporate domicile to a friendlier place, and probably as well to take themselves private again. Otherwise some other concern will rise up to fill the void and take that business.

[/ QUOTE ]

That's not how this statute works, actually. The part about sites accepting unlawful internet wagers was effective immediately upon the signing of the legislation. That's why Party and the others pulled out right away. But the part about screening and blocking transactions is not -- all the statute says is that the Fed must draft regulations directing financial institutions about what they must do. Again, nothing in the statute requiring financial institutions to do anything, only directing the Fed to draft regs, which will then define the financial institutions' obligations. The statute also says that financial institutions can't be held liable as long as they follow those regs and provides the Fed with an out to exempt categories of transactions that the Fed deems to be "impractical" to screen or block. So right now financial institutions not only have no obligation to screen and block, they can actually be held liable if they do screen and block (a non-unlawful internet gambling transaction by mistake).

[adios]

[ QUOTE ]
Neteller has warned shareholders that there business my be significantly changed. Also, they have said they will comply with the laws, which unlike someone tried to post, HAVE been written.

[/ QUOTE ]

Which post states that the laws haven't been written?

[Sniper]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
adios, I think we are basically in agreement over what is likely to occur, and on understanding that we really won't know until the Regs at least start being discussed.

That said, I want to comment on this section of your post...

[ QUOTE ]
I would guess that Neteller is anticipating some sort of regulation that U.S. banks can't do any direct transactions with any entities that do direct transactions with entities that run "gambling" sites. Seems complicated doesn't it? In other words, I'm guessing that Neteller is anticipating the regulations to state that if an e-wallet has direct transactions with a "gambling" site, U.S. banks will not be able to do direct transactions with that e-wallet.

[/ QUOTE ]

It's my opinion, that the Regs won't have to prohibit transactions with e-wallets for us to see Neteller remove itself from I-Gaming transactions. At this time, I fully expect that Neteller will act as if it is a bank subject to the Regs... and if the Regs say no business with I-Gaming sites, then Neteller will pull out of those transactions.

[/ QUOTE ]

Maybe but aren't the banks restricted from doing business with Internet sites now? Don't know for sure.

[/ QUOTE ]

This part of Hock's response basically answeres this question...

[ QUOTE ]
The part about sites accepting unlawful internet wagers was effective immediately upon the signing of the legislation. That's why Party and the others pulled out right away. But the part about screening and blocking transactions is not -- all the statute says is that the Fed must draft regulations directing financial institutions about what they must do. Again, nothing in the statute requiring financial institutions to do anything, only directing the Fed to draft regs, which will then define the financial institutions' obligations.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is why the public poker sites had to pull out of the US immediately, but Neteller can wait for the Regs before taking action.

[Hock_]

[ QUOTE ]
Which post states that the laws haven't been written?

[/ QUOTE ]

There is no law directing financial institutions to screen and block i-gaming transactions. Period. That's what the regs WILL do . . . in some way, shape, or form. See my response to BluffThis elsewhere in this thread.

[metsandfinsfan]

isnt neteller used on the horse racing sites? So wouldnt banks still allow trans to neteller

[sublime]

for those that understand the market better than i.

neteller should be looking for a buyer in a 'e-gambling welcome' country right now, right?

[Sniper]

[ QUOTE ]
for those that understand the market better than i.

neteller should be looking for a buyer in a 'e-gambling welcome' country right now, right?

[/ QUOTE ]

Why?

I expect you will find that the large Neteller shareholders would all tell you that they would rather have Neteller profit from its non-US business operting legally, than have to deal with the litigation costs and reputation blow of operating illegally; even though that means lower revenue/profits.

This is in fact, basically what the primary Party shareholders said.

I would not expect Neteller to handle this transition in any way that might tarnish their reputation. There is alot of money moving around the world, look to Neteller to diversify their business.

[whangarei]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
for those that understand the market better than i.

neteller should be looking for a buyer in a 'e-gambling welcome' country right now, right?

[/ QUOTE ]

Why?

I expect you will find that the large Neteller shareholders would all tell you that they would rather have Neteller profit from its non-US business operting legally, than have to deal with the litigation costs and reputation blow of operating illegally; even though that means lower revenue/profits.

This is in fact, basically what the primary Party shareholders said.

I would not expect Neteller to handle this transition in any way that might tarnish their reputation. There is alot of money moving around the world, look to Neteller to diversify their business.

[/ QUOTE ]

If a group of investors willing to operate out of Antigua, for example, offers to buy Neteller at a premium on their current stock price, Neteller shareholders will be happy. This conceivably shouldn't be too far-fetched considering how fall Neteller's stock has fallen since UIGEA.

[Sniper]

[ QUOTE ]
If a group of investors willing to operate out of Antigua, for example, offers to buy Neteller at a premium on their current stock price, Neteller shareholders will be happy. This conceivably shouldn't be too far-fetched considering how fall Neteller's stock has fallen since UIGEA.

[/ QUOTE ]

I do not believe you will find a group of investors willing to pay an appropriate price AND take on the risk, at this time.

There are going to be some interesting things that will happen over the next year... I do not believe that this is one of them.

[sublime]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
for those that understand the market better than i.

neteller should be looking for a buyer in a 'e-gambling welcome' country right now, right?

[/ QUOTE ]

Why?

I expect you will find that the large Neteller shareholders would all tell you that they would rather have Neteller profit from its non-US business operting legally, than have to deal with the litigation costs and reputation blow of operating illegally; even though that means lower revenue/profits.

This is in fact, basically what the primary Party shareholders said.

I would not expect Neteller to handle this transition in any way that might tarnish their reputation. There is alot of money moving around the world, look to Neteller to diversify their business.

[/ QUOTE ]

party poopa! /images/graemlins/frown.gif

[Sniper]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
for those that understand the market better than i.

neteller should be looking for a buyer in a 'e-gambling welcome' country right now, right?

[/ QUOTE ]

Why?

I expect you will find that the large Neteller shareholders would all tell you that they would rather have Neteller profit from its non-US business operting legally, than have to deal with the litigation costs and reputation blow of operating illegally; even though that means lower revenue/profits.

This is in fact, basically what the primary Party shareholders said.

I would not expect Neteller to handle this transition in any way that might tarnish their reputation. There is alot of money moving around the world, look to Neteller to diversify their business.

[/ QUOTE ]

party poopa! /images/graemlins/frown.gif

[/ QUOTE ]

Sublime,

As a poker player, I think like you, that I would like nothing better than for Neteller to operate outside the law.

However, from a business/market perspective, I just don't see them going that way... and they are making it pretty clear that is not their intent.

It will all come down to exactly what the Regs say must be done.

In an interesting twist, if the regs for example, say that financial instititutions only need worry about Direct transfers, the primary institution with responsibility to take action may be Neteller /images/graemlins/wink.gif

[OnePatheticLoser]

I havent signed into my neteller account for a while but i decided to today and noticed they had a new privacy policy. This was probably already talked about and i apologize if it has (tried to search for it), but I was wondering if this information is new to neteller's privacy policy and what exactly it means: "NETELLER will not sell or rent any of your personal information to third parties.
NETELLER will not share any of your personal information with third parties except in the limited circumstances described below, or as required or permitted by applicable law, or with your express permission. These third parties, where possible, are limited by law or by contract from using personally identifiable information for secondary purposes beyond the purposes for which the information is shared....
....We disclose personal information to government agencies, court or law enforcement personnel in response to applicable legislation or regulations, or to any subpoena, warrant, court order, levy, attachment, order of a court-appointed receiver or other comparable legal process, including subpoenas from private parties in a civil action. We reserve the right to cooperate with legal authorities having actual or potential jurisdiction over us." -new neteller privacy policy
So my question regarding this policy is does this mean that all of our transactions will be monitored by the U.S. Government? Or does it just mean Neteller won't stop them if they want any of our transaction information? I mean this has to be our right to privacy right or is it public information to the Government if they want it?

[whangarei]

Uber-late response but this thread just got bumped so ...

[ QUOTE ]
I do not believe you will find a group of investors willing to pay an appropriate price AND take on the risk, at this time.

[/ QUOTE ]

I couldn't imagine paying an appropriate price would be an issue. Didn't Neteller share price drop some 2/3 because of UIGEA? So, say it started at 100, and now is at 40. If US business was 75% of Neteller's profits, then prior to UIGEA this was valued at 75. So current price of 40, value of 75, there is a lot of room in the middle to make both new buyer and current investors happy.

[ QUOTE ]
There are going to be some interesting things that will happen over the next year... I do not believe that this is one of them.

[/ QUOTE ]

Do you have any thoughts on what some of these interesting things might be?

[Sniper]

[ QUOTE ]
So my question regarding this policy is does this mean that all of our transactions will be monitored by the U.S. Government? Or does it just mean Neteller won't stop them if they want any of our transaction information? I mean this has to be our right to privacy right or is it public information to the Government if they want it?

[/ QUOTE ]

It means that if Neteller is asked to provide information... it WILL be provided.

[scraggs]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
for those that understand the market better than i.

neteller should be looking for a buyer in a 'e-gambling welcome' country right now, right?

[/ QUOTE ]

Why?

I expect you will find that the large Neteller shareholders would all tell you that they would rather have Neteller profit from its non-US business operting legally, than have to deal with the litigation costs and reputation blow of operating illegally; even though that means lower revenue/profits.

This is in fact, basically what the primary Party shareholders said.

I would not expect Neteller to handle this transition in any way that might tarnish their reputation. There is alot of money moving around the world, look to Neteller to diversify their business.

[/ QUOTE ]

party poopa! /images/graemlins/frown.gif

[/ QUOTE ]

[permafrost]

[ QUOTE ]
all the statute says is that the Fed must draft regulations

[/ QUOTE ]

Actually, the Treasury Dept. Secretary, the Federal reserve, and the Attorney General will prescribe regulations.

Those regulations would not apply to Neteller (or a US bank's dealings with Neteller) unless Neteller volunteers to follow them, which they say will happen (worried about aiding and abetting?). I don't think the regulations of 5364 can be written to prevent anything more than a 'restricted' transaction.

[Suigin406]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I guess I should use my points to enter those drawings soon.

[/ QUOTE ]

just used all 5m of mine last week and for month of oct

[/ QUOTE ]

Guess I'll wait until November /images/graemlins/grin.gif

[/ QUOTE ]

thx for the heads up...i will too now...

[Sniper]

[ QUOTE ]
I don't think the regulations of 5364 can be written to prevent anything more than a 'restricted' transaction.

[/ QUOTE ]

The Regs will likely outline the procedures that the banks will be required to follow... I haven't seen anything from the Fed yet acknowledging any kind of work in progress on this.

[j2zooted]

are there sites where we can track what is being done with the regulations? if so what are they?

[Megenoita]

Do you think that this is going to cause a major change in online poker? Is this going to make all the tables really tight?

[Sniper]

[ QUOTE ]
are there sites where we can track what is being done with the regulations? if so what are they?

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm watching for something to appear on the Federal Reserve website...

[rando]

[ QUOTE ]
Do you think that this is going to cause a major change in online poker? Is this going to make all the tables really tight?

[/ QUOTE ]

Seems like there has been some tightening up already, along with certain games losing traffic at > micro limits (i.e. sharks feeding on chum instead of tuna).

[Sniper]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Do you think that this is going to cause a major change in online poker? Is this going to make all the tables really tight?

[/ QUOTE ]

Seems like there has been some tightening up already, along with certain games losing traffic at > micro limits (i.e. sharks feeding on chum instead of tuna).

[/ QUOTE ]

If Neteller leaves the US market, it will likely have a significant impact on the number of US online players... at least in the short term.

[Sniper]

Link to Dermot Desmond thread (http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/showflat.php?Cat=0&Number=8081102) ... large Neteller shareholder, rumored to be considering acquiring Neteller.

[ender]

If they are really making 3.9% on all deposits, they would be crazy to get out of this business. That kind of margin is worth risking jail.

[Sniper]

Neteller is conducting an online survey... link to discussion in the Zoo (http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/showflat.php?Cat=0&Number=8121923)

There was initial concern as the original email looked like a phishing attempt... however, the email has been verified as being conducted by a well known survey firm on behalf of Neteller.

[wall_st]

The survery looks like its results will be used in defense of the idea that neteller is used ONLY for gambling. MOstly looks like they are tying to prove that people use neteller for purchases from foreign places as well as gambling.

[Sniper]

Possible issue with Neteller Wire Transfers... link to thread in the Zoo (http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/showflat.php?Cat=0&Number=8121190)

[Sniper]

UB issue with Neteller Wire Transfers (http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/showthreaded.php?Cat=0&Number=8248621)

Looks like the impact of the changes made to USD Wire Transfer handling, is starting to have a wider effect...

UB also excluded Neteller use for their redeposit bonus this weekend... not a good sign.

[joeker]

Wire transfers and EFTs are 2 different things. This really only effect Neteller merchants. If you're a Neteller merchant you have to use wire transfer to get your money out of Neteller

[Sniper]

Yeah, but if UB can't wire transfer $$$ to Neteller to handle Neteller withdrawals from UB, that is a problem /images/graemlins/frown.gif

[SlapPappy]

Damn that sucks. What does wiring have to do with Electronic Funds Transfer though?

[joeker]

[ QUOTE ]
Yeah, but if UB can't wire transfer $$$ to Neteller to handle Neteller withdrawals from UB, that is a problem /images/graemlins/frown.gif

[/ QUOTE ]

That's not how it works, UB uses EFT to transfer to players' Neteller accounts. They need wire transfer to withdraw to their OWN bank accounts, assuming they keep large amounts on Neteller, otherwise it doesn't matter.

This really only effects Neteller merchants who do business with U.S. Banks, I doubt UB has a US bank account

[demon102]

I need to get a new deposit and withdraw company or whatever they are called like netteller since firepay shut down to me as a U.S. person. Is netteller still around for me and how long will they be around? If not whats a good method that works with both full tilt and stars as well as firepay did? I looked at epassport but it seems that they charge to much to deal with them.

[BLdSWtTRs]

If you need to get a good $50,000 plus to a site whats going to be the best way to do it if Neteller and the banks aren't depositing?

[john kane]

[ QUOTE ]
If you need to get a good $50,000 plus to a site whats going to be the best way to do it if Neteller and the banks aren't depositing?

[/ QUOTE ]

as im from the uk, transfer it to my personal bank account and then id transfer it to you on your stars account, with a tiny bit i keep /images/graemlins/smile.gif

[nickalips]

this probably has aleady been asked but after reading this post im wondering if hypothetically i make 50k on stars, cash it out and then "lose it in vegas" will i be able to write the loss off to match the win and be at zero dollars in "prize" money on my tax return?

Thats if i get it through netteller into my U.S. bank account?

[Sniper]

[ QUOTE ]
this probably has aleady been asked but after reading this post im wondering if hypothetically i make 50k on stars, cash it out and then "lose it in vegas" will i be able to write the loss off to match the win and be at zero dollars in "prize" money on my tax return?

Thats if i get it through netteller into my U.S. bank account?

[/ QUOTE ]

No you will report $X as income and take $X as an itemized deduction (unless you file as a pro)... review the tax threads...

[Leader]

[ QUOTE ]
this probably has aleady been asked but after reading this post im wondering if hypothetically i make 50k on stars, cash it out and then "lose it in vegas" will i be able to write the loss off to match the win and be at zero dollars in "prize" money on my tax return?

Thats if i get it through netteller into my U.S. bank account?

[/ QUOTE ]

You have to be able to prove your deductions if the IRS comes knocking. In other words you have to prove you lost 50K. They don't have to prove you didn't.

[Sniper]

2+2 Neteller Arrests thread (http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/showflat.php?Cat=0&Number=8783099)

Official Press Release (http://ww7.investorrelations.co.uk/neteller/feeds/regnews_item.jsp?ric=NLR.L&ref=13140)

STATEMENT REGARDING FORMER DIRECTORS

NETELLER Plc, the leading independent online money transfer business, today
issued the following statement regarding the speculation surrounding two of its
former directors and founder shareholders, Mr Stephen Lawrence and Mr John
Lefebvre.

While travelling separately in the US, Mr Lawrence and Mr Lefebvre, both former
directors of the Company, were detained by US authorities on Monday, 15 January
2007.

Other than as shareholders, neither Mr Lawrence nor Mr Lefebvre has any current
position with or connection to NETELLER.

The Group has not received any communication or correspondence from any US
authority regarding this or any related matter.

Pending clarification of the situation the Board has sought immediate temporary
suspension of NETELLER's shares.

Further information will be issued in due course.

----------------------------------

At the request of Neteller, trading on AIM for their shares has been temporarily suspended from 01/16/2007 7:30 am pending an announcement.

----------------------------------

Neteller also already had their quarterly conference call scheduled for Thursday, here's the info for anyone interested...

Notice of Trading Update and Conference Call

NETELLER Plc (LSE: NLR), the leading independent online money transfer business,
will release its next scheduled trading update on Thursday 18th January 2007.

This will be followed by a conference call for analysts and investors later that
day at 3.00 pm GMT (10.00am EST, 8.00am MST). Participants are advised to dial
in 5 to 10 minutes prior to the scheduled start time.


The details of the call are as follows:


Dial in number: UK / Europe + 44 (0) 20 7138 0835
North America + 1 718 354 1172


Replay number: UK / Europe + 44 (0) 20 7806 1970
US replay number: North America + 1 718 354 1112
Replay passcode: 5384726 #


The replay will be available for one week. In addition, a transcript of the call
will be made available on the Company's website within 48 hours of the
conference call.

[Leader]

[ QUOTE ]
Pending clarification of the situation the Board has sought immediate temporary suspension of NETELLER's shares.

[/ QUOTE ]

I take it that means they're not allowing buy and selling of the stock. Is this standard or a bad sign?

[Uglyowl]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Pending clarification of the situation the Board has sought immediate temporary suspension of NETELLER's shares.

[/ QUOTE ]

I take it that means they're not allowing buy and selling of the stock. Is this standard or a bad sign?

[/ QUOTE ]

Pretty much not a surprise. They suspend so that people getting "quicker" information (good or bad) on this event do not have an advantage.

[JPFisher55]

I would say that "fight's on." But this indictment does not seem to be based on the UIGEA, but on the Wire Act for assisting in funding sports betting sites. Still the WTO case will be one argument for the defense and if it wins goodbye UIGEA. I am ashamed that I was a life long Republican until this November.
I wonder if the DOJ intends to take on a poker website; probably not.

[Sniper]

[ QUOTE ]
I would say that "fight's on." But this indictment does not seem to be based on the UIGEA, but on the Wire Act for assisting in funding sports betting sites. Still the WTO case will be one argument for the defense and if it wins goodbye UIGEA. I am ashamed that I was a life long Republican until this November.
I wonder if the DOJ intends to take on a poker website; probably not.

[/ QUOTE ]

The most significant piece of information is going to be, how will Neteller respond...

[JayA]

How about not being able to use instacash anymore? Do you think this is a sign of things to come? Or Neteller just being precautious?

[firstyearclay]

At this point, we are all speculating.

I was under the impression that Neteller was always complying with the U.S. to prevent current situations like this from happening. (ie. they will open their books in IRS cases)

What I am surprised about is that they have taken this long to make a stance on being in or out of the U.S. market.

I hope this "situation" doesnt push them over the edge to pull out.

Neteller is so easy to use. This whole thing just [censored] sucks.

[JayA]

You're right. I was under that same impression. I really don't want to have to search for another ewallet because I don't think any will compare to the ease of use of Neteller. I hope it doesn't come down to that. I just emailed support to see if they can give me any kind of update about what the future of Neteller is in the U.S. I'll post it up if no one has anything similar.

[xx44]

I think most agree NT will not be doing business with the US any longer. Basically NT has already seen their stock fall from 16->3 on fears of the loss of the US market. NT will cut the fat, streamline the company, concentrate on the other markets, and still be imensely profitable due to the fantastic margins of this business.

If they dont comply with the gov't there will still be a black cloud of possible future litigation. Investors would then be unable to properly evaluate the company. Unlike pokerstars (which is private) their only concern is share price.

The gov't is making an example of these 2 guys. Basically saying to any of the control people of these companies "dont ever come to the us".

No need to wait to see how theyre going to enforce this bill. The regulators figured out that they can apply the Rico laws. Though inteded to be used for organized crime, it has been a weapon of the gov't used to make a statement (specifically white collar crime).

The only onus on the US banks will be to make a reasonable effort to stop transactions with gaming sites and 3rd parties. Every one sees this bill for what it is (conservative, bible chit) and no way the banking industry is going to layout big money and risk possible litigation in enforcding this.

I feel bad for those 2, but come on , why would they risk treveling to the us?

[xx44]

And I wouldnt be surprised when neteller resumes trading it dips on the news, then gradually increases in price to over 5 in 6 months (dont quote me on that).

Wow! I thought there 40 million shares, there are 120 mil, this is a 2 dollar stock.

[Instyle007]

From the other posts I've seen I don't think NETeller has stopped anything so far. Any problems seem to be isolated incidents unrelated to today's arrests.

On a related note, I beleive good alternatives to NETEller are Click2Pay & Citadel echeck. Both companies seem to be commited to not pulling out of online gambling. This is my impression from what I've read thus far.

I don't think there's any need to paniac. NETeller flip flopped from it's original "we're not going" stance and said it would revisit the policy before the grace period was over. These arrests may just speed up the decision they were going to make anyways.

FYI, there is a better thread for this latest turn of events here (http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/showflat.php?Cat=0&Number=8783099&an=0&page=0#Post 8783099).

[Capitola]

[ QUOTE ]
I hope this "situation" doesnt push them over the edge to pull out.

[/ QUOTE ]
I would be shocked if we DON'T get an announcement from Neteller within the next 2 weeks about their imminent departure from the U.S. market. We knew they'd be leaving eventually, but now I think they'll be leaving very soon. They said publicly that they intend to comply with American law, and they've just been told in no uncertain terms that they are (supposedly) in violation of the law.

That doesn't mean anyone should panic about getting their money out. Just because they'll be leaving the US doesn't mean they're going to take the money and run.

[Lansky]

As I have mentioned in the past, I think an LBO makes the most sense. I am currently long and wrong, but I think an LBO, management or not, is pretty likely; this will expedite it.

[Sniper]

Apparently, the US is declaring that Neteller was an illegal business from day 1... surely, the London stock exchange where they are listed will have to weigh in on this.

This is significant, and I would expect that Neteller will have a detailed statement on how they intend to react to all of this, on Thursday's Conf Call...

Interestingly, this could mean that even those sites that pulled out of the US, could be facing prosecution.

[ChexNFX]

[ QUOTE ]
Apparently, the US is declaring that Neteller was an illegal business from day 1... surely, the London stock exchange where they are listed will have to weigh in on this.

This is significant, and I would expect that Neteller will have a detailed statement on how they intend to react to all of this, on Thursday's Conf Call...

Interestingly, this could mean that even those sites that pulled out of the US, could be facing prosecution.

[/ QUOTE ]

I can only expect good things from this country in the future...

[Sniper]

Link to DOJ Official Press Release (http://www.usdoj.gov/usao/nys/pressreleases/January07/Neteller%20Arrests%20PR.pdf)

[Sniper]

CHRISTOPHER P. CONNIFF
TIMOTHY J. TREANOR
Assistant United States Attorneys
Before: HONORABLE DEBRA C. FREEMAN
United States Magistrate Judge
Southern District of New York

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

UNITED STATES OF AMERICA -v- STEPHEN ERIC LAWRENCE, Defendant.

Sealed Complaint
Violation of 18 U.S.C. § 1956

COUNTY OF OFFENSE:
NEW YORK/WESTCHESTER

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - x

SOUTHERN DISTRICT OF NEW YORK, ss.:

Maryann Goldman, being duly sworn, deposes and says that she is a Special Agent with the Federal Bureau of Investigation and charges as follows:

COUNT ONE

1. From in or about June 1999, up to and including in or about January 2007, in the Southern District of New York and elsewhere, STEPHEN ERIC LAWRENCE, the defendant, and others known and unknown, unlawfully, wilfully and knowingly did combine, conspire, confederate, and agree together and with each other to violate Section 1956(a)(2)(A) of Title 18, United States Code. 2. It was a part and an object of the conspiracy that STEPHEN ERIC LAWRENCE, the defendant, and others known and unknown, would and did transport, transmit, and transfer monetary instruments and funds from a place in the United States to and through a place outside the United States and to a place in the United States from and through a place outside the United States with the intent to promote the carrying on of specified unlawful activity, to wit, the operation of illegal gambling businesses in violation of Title 18, United States Code, Section 1955, the illegal transmission of wagers and gambling information, in violation of Title 18, United States Code, Section 1084, and the commission of gambling offenses in violation of both New York State Penal Law, Article 225, and anti-gambling statutes in other states.

OVERT ACTS

3. In furtherance of said conspiracy and to effect the illegal object thereof, STEPHEN ERIC LAWRENCE, the defendant, and others known and unknown, committed the following overt acts, among others, in the Southern District of New York and elsewhere:

a. In or about 1999, LAWRENCE and a co-conspirator ("CC#1") founded a group of businesses (the "Neteller Group") to provide online payment services to internet gambling businesses. b. Beginning in or about July 2000, and continuing up to in or about December 2003, LAWRENCE, CC#1, and others affiliated with the Neteller Group offered online payment services through Neteller Inc., a Canadian corporation, to various internet gambling businesses so that these businesses could illegally access customers in the United States, including customers in and around New York City.

c. Beginning in or about January 2004, and continuing up to in or about January 2007, LAWRENCE, CC#1, and others affiliated with the Neteller Group offered online payment services through Neteller PLC, a corporation based in the Isle of Man, to various internet gambling businesses so that these businesses could illegally access customers in the United States, including in and around New York City.

d. On or about April 14, 2004, LAWRENCE, CC#1, and others affiliated with the Neteller Group raised approximately $70 million through an initial public offering of shares in Neteller PLC on the Alternative Investment Market ("AIM") of the London Stock Exchange ("LSE") in order to, among other things, expand their online payment business. (Title 18, United States Code, Sections 1956(h).) The bases for deponent's knowledge and for the foregoing charge are, in part, as follows:

4. Since in or about June 2006, the Federal Bureau of Investigation ("FBI") has been conducting an investigation of Neteller PLC, a company that is based in Isle of Man and is publicly-traded in the United Kingdom. The investigation has revealed that Neteller PLC conducts and facilitates illegal financial transactions between gambling customers in the United States and numerous offshore online gambling businesses.

5. I have been personally involved in the investigation of this matter. This complaint is based upon my involvement in the investigation, my conversations with other law enforcement officials and witnesses, and my examination of reports, records, and tapes. Because this complaint is being submitted for the limited purpose of establishing probable cause, it does not include all the facts that I have learned during the course of this investigation. Where the contents of documents and the actions, statements, and conversations of others are reported herein, they are reported in substance and in part, except where otherwise indicated.

6. I have reviewed various business records of Neteller PLC. These records describe, among other things, the history and development of the Neteller Group and the services that it provides. For example, in the prospectus from Neteller PLC's initial public offering on the AIM (the "Neteller IPO Prospectus"), the Board of Directors of Neteller PLC, including STEPHEN ERIC LAWRENCE, the defendant, collectively states that Neteller Inc., a Canadian corporation, was founded in 1999 by LAWRENCE and CC#1; that on January 1, 2004, the Neteller Group began doing business as Neteller PLC, a corporation based in Isle of Man; that Neteller PLC specializes in providing online payment processing services to online merchants and customers; that Neteller PLC, and previously Neteller Inc., offers services through Neteller.com; that the primary service provided by Neteller PLC, and previously by Neteller Inc., is a "virtual wallet" account that enables customers to deposit, withdraw, or transfer funds with any merchant that supports the Neteller online payments system; that Neteller PLC generates its revenues on a fee-for-service basis for any transfer of money between any combination of members or merchants; and that Neteller Inc. began processing transactions in July 2000.

7. I have reviewed various business records of Neteller PLC that provide information regarding the scope of the online payment services provided by Neteller PLC, including the following:

a. In the Neteller IPO Prospectus, the Board of Directors of Neteller PLC, including STEPHEN ERIC LAWRENCE, the defendant, collectively states that more than 95 percent of the revenues generated by the Neteller Group, is derived from processing money transfers pertaining to the online gambling market; and that on or about March 1, 2004, Neteller PLC had 685,945 member accounts, of which approximately 88 percent belonged to North American residents.

b. Neteller PLC's 2004 annual report states that, in 2004, Neteller PLC processed $3.4 billion in financial transactions; and Neteller PLC provides gambling customers with access to more than 80 percent of the online gaming merchants in the world.

c. Neteller PLC's 2005 annual report states that, in 2005, Neteller PLC processed over $7.3 billion in financial transactions; Neteller PLC provides gambling customers with access to more than 80 percent of worldwide gaming merchants; and in 2005, Neteller PLC had $172.1 million in revenues and $91.5 million in net profit.

d. In Neteller PLC's half yearly report for the six-month period ending June 30, 2006, dated September 11, 2006, the President and Chief Executive Officer of Neteller PLC described the "online gaming market" as Neteller PLC's "main market," and stated that, in the first half of 2006, Neteller PLC processed $5.1 billion in financial transactions, and that approximately 85 percent of Neteller PLC's revenue during that period derived from individuals in North America.

e. The transcript of a public conference call that occurred on or about September 11, 2006, between officers of Neteller PLC and financial analysts, reflects that the Chief Financial Officer of Neteller PLC stated during the conference call that approximately 75 percent of the revenue of Neteller PLC originated from customers in the United States.

8. As part of the investigation, law enforcement officers and a cooperating witness posed as gambling customers and conducted online monetary transactions with numerous online gambling businesses using online payment processing services provided by Neteller PLC. The following are examples of some of the transactions that I have either participated in or learned about:

a. On or about August 12, 2006, a cooperating witness (the "CW"), who at the time was located in Miami, Florida, used a computer to open an account on Neteller.com (the "Neteller Account"), and the CW electronically transferred $400 from a bank account in Miami, Florida, into the Neteller Account. On or about August 22, 2006, the CW, who at the time was located in Miami, Florida, used a computer to open a wagering account with an online gambling business based in Antigua ("Online Gambling Business #1), by electronically transferring $400 from the Neteller Account to Online Gambling Business #1. On or about August 24, 2006, the CW, who at the time was located in Miami, Florida, used a computer to access Online Gambling Business #1's website, and the CW then wagered $250 on a National Football League ("NFL") football game and won approximately $200. On or about September 7, 2006, the CW, who at the time was located in Miami, Florida, used a computer to access Online Gambling Business #1's website, and the CW then wagered $250 on an NFL football game and lost $250.

b. On or about September 26, 2006, I was present with the CW at a public library located in Westchester County, New York. At that time, I observed the CW access the internet using a public computer at the library. The CW then used the computer to access Online Gambling Business #1's website, and the CW then withdrew $200 from his wagering account with Online Gambling Business #1 and transferred it electronically to the Neteller Account. Thereafter, the CW then placed a $50 wager on an NFL football game on Online Gambling Business #1's website using money that had previously been deposited with Online Gambling Business #1 using the Neteller Account.

c. On or about December 29, 2006, in Westchester County, New York, I used a computer to access the Neteller Account by logging on to Neteller.com. At that time, the balance in the account was $100. I then transferred $25 from the Neteller Account to a wagering account with an online gambling business based in Costa Rica ("Online Gambling Business #2"). I then transferred $25 from the Neteller account to a wagering account with another online gambling business based in Costa Rica ("Online Gambling Business #3"). Then, I logged on to Online Gambling Business #1's website and used a link to Neteller.com to transfer $25 from the Neteller Account to the wagering account with Online Gambling Business #1 that previously had been opened by the CW.

9. I have reviewed various business records obtained from financial institutions that provide information regarding international monetary transactions conducted by, or on behalf of, Neteller PLC, including the following:

a. Records of automated clearinghouse ("ACH") transactions obtained pursuant to subpoena from an automated clearinghouse located in the United States demonstrate that Neteller processes a significant amount of customer transactions through the automated clearinghouse system, including transactions from customers in Manhattan. The ACH system permits Neteller to handle internet-based customer transactions. These records further demonstrate that Neteller uses a payment service company (the "Payment Company") to conduct its customers' ACH transactions in the name of the Payment Company. By doing so, Neteller PLC conceals the nature of these financial transactions. The Payment Company receives funds in the United States on behalf of Neteller PLC, and then transfers the funds out of the United States to accounts controlled by Neteller PLC in Canada.

b. Records of wire transfers obtained pursuant to subpoena from a bank in the United States (the "US Bank") demonstrate that, from in or about January 2006 up to and including in or about March 2006, a total of approximately $98 million was transferred by wire from an account in the name of the Payment Company at the US Bank in the United States to an account in the name of JSL Systems Inc. at National Bank of Canada in Calgary, Alberta, Canada. Neteller PLC's 2004 annual report states that JSL Systems Inc. is a related company that is owned by a director of Neteller PLC that processes transactions for Neteller PLC and is paid a nominal fee for its services. In the Neteller IPO Prospectus, the Board of Directors of Neteller PLC, including STEPHEN ERIC LAWRENCE, the defendant, collectively states that LAWRENCE and CC#1 are partners in and/or directors of JSL Systems Inc.

c. Records of wire transfers obtained pursuant to subpoena from the US Bank demonstrate that, from in or about March 2006 up to and including in or about April 2006, a total of approximately $50 million was transferred from an account in the name of the Payment Company at the US Bank in the United States to an account in the name of Cardload Inc. at National Bank of Canada in Calgary, Alberta, Canada. Neteller PLC's 2004 annual report states that Cardload Inc. is a wholly-owned subsidiary of Neteller PLC.

10. I have reviewed various business records of Neteller PLC that provide information regarding the involvement of STEPHEN ERIC LAWRENCE, the defendant, in the business affairs of Neteller Inc. and Neteller PLC, including the following:

a. In the Neteller IPO Prospectus, the Board of Directors of Neteller PLC, including LAWRENCE, collectively states the following: LAWRENCE founded the Neteller Group in June 1999; LAWRENCE participated in developing the online payment services of the Neteller Group and participated in raising capital for the Neteller Group; LAWRENCE served as Chief Executive Officer of Neteller Inc. until December 2002 and drew a salary and other compensation from Neteller Inc.; LAWRENCE served as executive director of Neteller Inc. from 2001 to August 31, 2003; LAWRENCE was Chairman of the Board of Directors of Neteller PLC and would continue to serve as Chairman upon admission of Neteller PLC to AIM; LAWRENCE owned approximately 42 percent of Neteller PLC prior to the IPO, and LAWRENCE would own approximately 36 percent of Neteller PLC after the IPO; and LAWRENCE advanced to Neteller PLC approximately $3 million in an interest-free loan.

b. Neteller PLC's 2004 annual report states that Neteller PLC is the creation of LAWRENCE who is a major shareholder of Neteller PLC; LAWRENCE served as Chief Executive Officer of Neteller Inc. until December 2002; throughout 2004, LAWRENCE was the Chairman of the Board of Directors of Neteller PLC; on or about December 31, 2004, LAWRENCE was the largest shareholder of Neteller PLC, owning 21.94% percent of the outstanding shares of Neteller PLC; and during 2004, the Board of Directors of Neteller PLC granted LAWRENCE options to purchase additional shares of Neteller PLC.

c. Neteller PLC's 2005 annual report states that LAWRENCE served as Chairman of the Board of Directors of Neteller PLC during 2005, but that LAWRENCE would step down from his position as Chairman at Neteller PLC's annual general meeting in 2006; during 2005, the Board of Directors of Neteller PLC granted LAWRENCE options to purchase additional shares of Neteller PLC; and during 2005, Neteller PLC paid LAWRENCE compensation for serving as a director.

11. I have reviewed various business records of Neteller PLC that demonstrate that STEPHEN ERIC LAWRENCE, the defendant, had knowledge that he was participating in criminal activity in the United States. For example, in the Neteller IPO Prospectus, the Board of Directors of Neteller PLC, including LAWRENCE, collectively states that criminal laws exist in the United States that prohibit persons from promoting certain forms of gambling; criminal laws exist in the United States that prohibit the transmission of funds that are known to have been derived from criminal activity or are intended to promote criminal activity; that to date most of the criminal prosecutions related to online gambling in the United States have been limited to cases where assets or relevant individuals are located in the United States; that the Neteller Group does not maintain offices or assets in the United States; and that there can be no assurance that the government of the United States will not try to prosecute the Neteller Group under existing or future federal laws. WHEREFORE, deponent prays that a warrant be issued for the arrest of the above-named individual and that he be arrested and imprisoned or bailed as the case may be.
________________________________

MARYANN GOLDMAN
SPECIAL AGENT
FEDERAL BUREAU OF INVESTIGATION
Sworn to before me this day of January 16, 2007

________________________________
UNITED STATES MAGISTRATE JUDGE
SOUTHERN DISTRICT OF NEW YORK

[ChexNFX]

What [censored].

[Sniper]

This snippet from the Neteller IPO doc (risk section) may explain why these 2 guys (it also raises other issues)...

http://img460.imageshack.us/img460/9094/netelleripo1hr0.jpg

[MiltonFriedman]

Neteller's founders were expressly indicted for developing InstaCash .... Read the complaint about $$$ Millions flowing from a payment company and US Bank to Neteller wholly owned subsidiaries.

This case IS a shot across the bow of anyone who wants to fill Neteller's InstantCash shoes and offer an ACH product for "illegal" purposes.

It seems likely that ACH itself is a target of this action.

[MiltonFriedman]

"At this point, we are all speculating'

No, some of us are looking at the facts.

"I was under the impression that Neteller was always complying with the U.S."

How ? By transferring money from US players to sports-betting operations ?

[MiltonFriedman]

"I really don't want to have to search for another ewallet ...I hope it doesn't come down to that."


WHERE have you been since about mid-September ?

[tangled]

[ QUOTE ]
Apparently, the US is declaring that Neteller was an illegal business from day 1... surely, the London stock exchange where they are listed will have to weigh in on this.

This is significant, and I would expect that Neteller will have a detailed statement on how they intend to react to all of this, on Thursday's Conf Call...

Interestingly, this could mean that even those sites that pulled out of the US, could be facing prosecution.

[/ QUOTE ]


Right. It seems to me that the recent arrests will make it more likely that NT will stay ,not leave the US. What do they have to lose? They all are already going to be prosecuted if they come to the US. Pulling out of the US market any time soon will not change this. Might as well make some money.

I know I must be wrong but how?

[blunty31]

I think this might actually be a good thing. The people arrested have the money to hire good lawyers, and if the beat the case the US govt. will lose its teeth.

[PropPlayer]

I'll give even money they will go to jail.

[Sniper]

[ QUOTE ]
I think this might actually be a good thing. The people arrested have the money to hire good lawyers, and if the beat the case the US govt. will lose its teeth.

[/ QUOTE ]

Unfortunately, the Teeth will bite, way before this case reaches any conclusion...

[Mendacious]

I think the WTO WILL carry the day in this case. At the end of the day, I do not think it is reasonable to send business to jail for operating a business that is legal and registered and listed in friendly nations-- where even though the US has laws in this area prohibiting the action that Neteller is servicing, these laws have been declared in violation of international treaty. This case has ZERO jury appeal unless they can show a genuine link between neteller, organized crime or terrorism. These guys walk.

I think that it is interesting that UIGEA is not mentioned--despite the fact that the triggering events took place in Dec. 2006 (the agent's neteller transactions) AND obviously these events took place well after it became clear that the WTO has found US gambling restrictions to violate the treaty.

[Dennisa]

[ QUOTE ]
I'll give even money they will go to jail.

[/ QUOTE ]

I think these guys have earned a vacation at the Club Fed. Its still going to be prison.

[ekdikeo]

The U.S. tends not to be a signatory to any treaties that would limit it's abilities to do whatever the hell it wants. /images/graemlins/frown.gif

From the DOJ Press Release (or by "PR" do they mean "Public Relations"? that's what it reads more like):

"this .. is part of the .. effort to combat unlawful internet gambling through the implementation of federal anti money laundering statutes."

Money laundering is the practice of engaging in financial transactions in order to conceal the identity, source and destination of the money in question. In the past, the term "money laundering" was applied only to financial transactions related to otherwise criminal activity. Today its definition is often expanded by government regulators, such as the SEC, to encompass any financial transaction which is not transparent based on law.

Looks like an eventual intent to potentially eliminate all transactions outside of the country, IMO.

[Sniper]

Link to nation's Neteller speculation/consequences thread (http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/showflat.php?Cat=0&Number=8796673)

[Sniper]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I think this might actually be a good thing. The people arrested have the money to hire good lawyers, and if the beat the case the US govt. will lose its teeth.

[/ QUOTE ]

Unfortunately, the Teeth will bite, way before this case reaches any conclusion...

[/ QUOTE ]

The sites are removing Neteller InstaCash as a deposit option for US customers...

[Leader]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I think this might actually be a good thing. The people arrested have the money to hire good lawyers, and if the beat the case the US govt. will lose its teeth.

[/ QUOTE ]

Unfortunately, the Teeth will bite, way before this case reaches any conclusion...

[/ QUOTE ]

The sites are removing Neteller InstaCash as a deposit option for US customers...

[/ QUOTE ]

which was going to be gone anyway in all likelihood. InstaCash was a huge racket. NT was making a killing on it. There are replacements out there and there will be more in the near future. Hopefully those who run the next one will be able to resist vacationing in the US.

[JayA]

[ QUOTE ]
"I really don't want to have to search for another ewallet ...I hope it doesn't come down to that."


WHERE have you been since about mid-September ?

[/ QUOTE ]

Umm..keeping up with this? How does this prove that I've been under a rock? /images/graemlins/confused.gif I'm just stating that I hope Neteller doesn't pull out of the U.S. market completely because I don't want to have to search for a new ewallet already since I'm in the process of setting up my own Neteller.

[Sniper]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
"I really don't want to have to search for another ewallet ...I hope it doesn't come down to that."


WHERE have you been since about mid-September ?

[/ QUOTE ]

Umm..keeping up with this? How does this prove that I've been under a rock? /images/graemlins/confused.gif I'm just stating that I hope Neteller doesn't pull out of the U.S. market completely because I don't want to have to search for a new ewallet already since I'm in the process of setting up my own Neteller.

[/ QUOTE ]

Rumors are circulating that a complete Neteller pullout is imminent...

[Beastmaster]

start looking for other deposit options..Stars has echeck..and most other sites have a couple options for US players. I still think the fish will deposit, if they trust the poker site ..they'll trust the banking link provided. (centralcoin / click2pay / etc.)

[TANKSTER]

Why do I feel like the U.S. is turning into a Communist state? This country is great at some things, but sucks at most.

Hey US Govt, it's called PROTECT OUR FREEDOMS, NOT TAKE THEM AWAY!!

[Sniper]

Former Neteller director John Lefebvre has been granted bail after an appearance in court in Los Angeles. According to Rebekah Carmichael, press spokesperson from the US Department of Justice, 'he will be released after satisfying the bail conditions of $5m fully secured by cash or property; pre-trial supervision; surrender of all travel documents; and travel restricted to the Central District of California, except for trips to Southern District, New York for Court.'

The other former director Stephen Lawrence is currently in court in St Thomas in the US Virgin islands, attending an, "advice of rights" hearing.

Both defendants are being directed to appear in this district on January 26, 2007, though this is subject to change.

Source: eGaming Review

[maxtower]

He should run to Mexico if he wants to avoid prison.

[Sniper]

NETELLER Member FAQs
From time to time, NETELLER revises the policies of our products and services. At the end of 2006, NETELLER began reviewing the instaCASH payment option, which resulted in the decision to retire this product from the US, effective January 16, 2007. As such, instaCASH is no longer available to US members.

1. Why can’t I access my instaCASH funds in my NETELLER account?

NETELLER has made a policy and technical change that has disabled instaCASH for US members.

2. Will I be able to use instaCASH again?

We are currently in the process of re-evaluating this payment option and no decisions have been made regarding the future availability of this product.

3. Is this related to the US legislation or the recent detentions?

We initiated some policy changes around instaCASH before the end of 2006 and this is the next step.

4. I'm a Canadian NETELLER member. Can I still use instaCASH?

Yes, these changes do not affect a Canadian member's ability to use instaCASH.

[Sniper]

The message from Neteller:

1. Don't panic based on rumors

2. There has been no decision made on pulling out of the US

3. The decision will be made "soon" and will be communicated

4. If there was a pullout, there would be a grace period for withdrawals

[addictontilt]

/images/graemlins/heart.gif sniper

[Sniper]

In other NETeller news, the largest online gambling "e-wallet" indefinitely suspended its popular "Instacash" option to U.S. players.

The Instacash option allowed online gamblers the ability to access electronic funds transfers (EFT) without having them first clear their financial institution.

Instacash was popular with online gamblers because players could use the deposited money instantly for a service charge. Traditional deposit methods force players to wait as many as 3-5 business days for the EFT to clear.

NETeller has also suspended the player's ability to fund their accounts instantly via credit card transactions. According to NETeller's Web site, players can still deposit money using traditional methods.

All withdrawal methods will continue to function normally, NETeller announced.

Source: Casino City Times

[Sniper]

Thursday Conf Call info again...

Notice of Trading Update and Conference Call

NETELLER Plc (LSE: NLR), the leading independent online money transfer business,
will release its next scheduled trading update on Thursday 18th January 2007.

This will be followed by a conference call for analysts and investors later that
day at 3.00 pm GMT (10.00am EST, 8.00am MST). Participants are advised to dial
in 5 to 10 minutes prior to the scheduled start time.


The details of the call are as follows:


Dial in number: UK / Europe + 44 (0) 20 7138 0835
North America + 1 718 354 1172


Replay number: UK / Europe + 44 (0) 20 7806 1970
US replay number: North America + 1 718 354 1112
Replay passcode: 5384726 #


The replay will be available for one week. In addition, a transcript of the call
will be made available on the Company's website within 48 hours of the
conference call.

[MasterLJ]

Short-selling Neteller is +EV.

[Sniper]

[ QUOTE ]
Short-selling Neteller is +EV.

[/ QUOTE ]

Neteller stock has not reopened for trading, since trading was suspended in the stock Tuesday morning...

[MasterLJ]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Short-selling Neteller is +EV.

[/ QUOTE ]

Neteller stock has not reopened for trading, since trading was suspended in the stock Tuesday morning...

[/ QUOTE ]

I shoulda shorted them weeks ago when we knew this was imminent =(. Same with Party around the time the legislation came out. It's literally printing money!

*kicks self*

Not sure who'd take the other end of it though

[Sniper]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Short-selling Neteller is +EV.

[/ QUOTE ]

Neteller stock has not reopened for trading, since trading was suspended in the stock Tuesday morning...

[/ QUOTE ]

I shoulda shorted them weeks ago when we knew this was imminent =(. Same with Party around the time the legislation came out. It's literally printing money!

*kicks self*

Not sure who'd take the other end of it though

[/ QUOTE ]

http://img170.imageshack.us/img170/4602/stocknlrrn8.jpg

[smartalecc5]

I still don't get why playing playing poker and funding our account is illegal.

[Sniper]

[ QUOTE ]
I still don't get why playing playing poker and funding our account is illegal.

[/ QUOTE ]

It's not illegal for us... It "may" be illegal for a site to take your money though... and its apparently illegal for a transaction provider to facilitate the transfer /images/graemlins/wink.gif

[Doc.X]

From Neteller FAQ page:
US member update
Effective Immediately

Due to recent US legislative changes and events, effective immediately, US members are no longer able to transfer funds to or from any online gambling sites.

All US members will continue to be able to use their NETELLER e-wallet account to safely transfer funds to and from non-gambling merchants and are not required to close their account or withdraw their funds.

Please note that we are experiencing higher than normal support volumes and recommend that you read the FAQs for more information.

[godofgamblers]

...DOH! I just wanted to transfer out of UB.

[ekdikeo]

I don't see that on the FAQ page?

[Doc.X]

Sorry, I originally accessed it through live chat Member FAQ. Now there is a service update clickable on the front page.

[EvanJC]

i saw this literally seconds after i made a withrawl from FT. any idea what i can expect to happen?

[Sniper]

The rest of the new FAQ...

Why is NETELLER no longer allowing US members to make fund transfers with online gambling sites?

The US government has recently introduced new legislation in the form of the Unlawful Internet Gambling Enforcement Act. To best protect the interests of NETELLER members, employees, shareholders and business partners, NETELLER will no longer provide service to US members to transfer funds to and from online gambling merchants.


How do I know if I am a US member?

If your registered address with NETELLER is a US address, you are considered a US member and all of the changes indicated here and in your notification email apply to you.


Why can’t I access my instaCASH funds in my NETELLER account?

NETELLER has made a policy and technical change that has disabled instaCASH for US members.


Will I be able to use instaCASH again?

No decisions have been made regarding the future availability of this product.


Can I still use my NETELLER account?

Yes. All US members and non-US members will continue to be able to use their NETELLER e-wallet account for safe online transfers to and from non-gambling merchants, secure peer-to-peer transfers and NETELLER Card withdrawals at ATMs around the world.


Does this change affect withdrawals with NETELLER?

US members who currently have funds in their e-wallet account may keep their funds safe in their account or are free to make withdrawals at any time they choose. US members are not required to withdraw their funds from their NETELLER account.

At this time, you may use a NETELLER Card to withdraw funds from your NETELLER e-wallet account.


What’s the quickest and most convenient way to withdraw funds from my NETELLER account?

The NETELLER Card is the quickest and most convenient withdrawal option. When you transfer funds from your NETELLER e-wallet account to your NETELLER Card, you can withdraw those funds from any ATM cash machine on the Cirrus/Maestro network and Pulse Star network, depending on your country of residence. You will have to pay a nominal fee for NETELLER Card withdrawals, but your funds will be available from 15 minutes to an hour after they are transferred to your card. Learn more.


Is my money safe in my NETELLER account?

Yes, your money is safe with NETELLER. All members can hold their funds safely in their NETELLER accounts until such time as they decide to move the funds. The changes in gambling merchant transfers do not affect the ability of US member to maintain funds in their NETELER e-wallet accounts.

NETELLER protects all members’ funds (all deposited, in-transit and un-cleared funds) by holding the value in independent trust accounts. As the largest independent online money transfer business in the world, we maintain our head office in Europe and are a publicly quoted company on the AIM market of the London Stock Exchange. NETELLER UK Ltd is authorised and regulated by the Financial Services Authority.


Am I required to withdraw my money from NETELLER?

No, there is no requirement for US members to withdraw their funds from their e-wallet accounts. US members will still be able to use their NETELLER e-wallet accounts for safe online transactions to non-gambling merchants, secure peer-to-peer transfers and instant payouts with the NETELLER Card.


Does this change affect non-US members?

No, NETELLER customers with registered addresses outside of the US will not be affected by these changes. The company will continue to operate its non-US business as normal, maintaining all existing products, services, customer and merchant support across all the other countries it currently serves.


How can US members find out about changes to their NETELLER services?

NETELLER will continue to notify you of any pertinent changes to your service. All members will continue to have access to this FAQ site for answers to the most commonly asked questions, but members can also register to receive all NETELLER press releases, by signing up for our e-news alert service.


I am a US resident. Can I still become a NETELLER member?

No. We have temporarily suspended the ability for US residents to create a NETELLER e-wallet account.


Why were the founders of your company arrested?

Although we can confirm that Steve Lawrence and John Lefebvre were detained separately while in the United States, we do not know the details surrounding the detention and cannot provide more clarification. We can confirm that both individuals are no longer employees or board members of NETELLER and have not been involved in the day-to-day running of the company for a number of years.


Why was NETELLER stock suspended from trading?

As a precautionary measure, we asked the London AIM Stock Market to temporarily suspend trading in our shares, effective January 16, 2007. We requested this action to help protect all shareholders from any negative impact the recent detentions might have until more facts are known. Once we understand the situation in greater detail, we will ask the AIM to allow our shares to trade again.


Who can I contact for assistance?

If your question has not been answered by this FAQ, or if you require further assistance, please contact NETELLER Customer Service at usmembers@neteller.com or by calling 1-888-258-5859, 24 hours a day, 7 days a week. Please note that at we are experiencing higher than normal support volumes.

[LeapFrog]

Thanks for the updates Sniper.

Lol at this:

[ QUOTE ]

The US government has recently introduced new legislation in the form of the Unlawful Internet Gambling Enforcement Act. To best protect the interests of NETELLER members, employees, shareholders and business partners, NETELLER will no longer provide service to US members to transfer funds to and from online gambling merchants.


[/ QUOTE ]

[Sniper]

There is apparently a Press Release about this, which I will post as soon as I can access it...

[Jeffage]

Does anyone know if banks will give you a problem if u make a neteller withdrawl like right now? Anyone worried about a run on the bank if they leave the money in their account? I've actually been playing online much less of late, but I'd still rather not have my money frozen or get crap from my bank.

Jeff

[MasterLJ]

[ QUOTE ]
Does anyone know if banks will give you a problem if u make a neteller withdrawl like right now? Anyone worried about a run on the bank if they leave the money in their account? I've actually been playing online much less of late, but I'd still rather not have my money frozen or get crap from my bank.

Jeff

[/ QUOTE ]

It is very highly unlikely that the banks will give you grief since the recommendations from the Fed have not been released. Banks are not chomping at the bit to oblige to the UIGEA and will not act until the recommendations are released.

[EvanJC]

i just voided it :\

[masca]

Post deleted by Performify

[EscapePlan9]

lol spammers

[Sniper]

[ QUOTE ]
lol spammers

[/ QUOTE ]

Even worse, spamming for PP in a thread being read primarily by US customers, and clearly being actively posted in by a mod /images/graemlins/wink.gif

May have been my fastest spam ban... unfortunately, I can't delete his post... sigh (I expect a Leg mod will clean it up shortly)

[bayma]

I just tried to put more money in my Neteller account and it wouldn't go through four times. The decline came VERY quickly so the word is out; they must have been shut down.

[Mhoram]

So to clairify, if you try to transfer from Stars or Fulltilt, etc, it will not go through to Neteller?

If so we have to be looking at what alternative our respective poker sites give for getting our money.

Is this correct?

[Jooka]

I made a transfer last week which should have cleared yesterday but due to MLK day it wouldnt be available till today.(so said a CS rep this morning) waited till the end of the day to check back on my transfer, still not there. Talk with CS again he tells me he has no estimation as to when the money will be cleared.

[JayA]

http://content.neteller.com/content/en/member_businessupdate.htm

U.S. members are not being allowed to create new accounts at this time.

[Sniper]

[ QUOTE ]
So to clairify, if you try to transfer from Stars or Fulltilt, etc, it will not go through to Neteller?

If so we have to be looking at what alternative our respective poker sites give for getting our money.

Is this correct?

[/ QUOTE ]

Correct!!!

[ispiked]

[ QUOTE ]
U.S. members are not being allowed to create new accounts at this time.

[/ QUOTE ]
That's slightly incorrect. What it says is that US members cannot make transfers with online gambling sites. For what it's worth, I created an account this evening, and this is how I stumbled across this news.

[JayA]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
U.S. members are not being allowed to create new accounts at this time.

[/ QUOTE ]
That's slightly incorrect. What it says is that US members cannot make transfers with online gambling sites. For what it's worth, I created an account this evening, and this is how I stumbled across this news.

[/ QUOTE ]

[ QUOTE ]
I am a US resident. Can I still become a NETELLER member?

No. We have temporarily suspended the ability for US residents to create a NETELLER e-wallet account.

[/ QUOTE ]

[Sniper]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
U.S. members are not being allowed to create new accounts at this time.

[/ QUOTE ]
That's slightly incorrect. What it says is that US members cannot make transfers with online gambling sites. For what it's worth, I created an account this evening, and this is how I stumbled across this news.

[/ QUOTE ]

Looks like you slipped in ahead of the ban, From the FAQ...

[ QUOTE ]
I am a US resident. Can I still become a NETELLER member?

No. We have temporarily suspended the ability for US residents to create a NETELLER e-wallet account.

[/ QUOTE ]

[Homer]

Sniper, since you are really on top of this stuff, can you comment on the rumors that EFTs from Neteller to banks are not being processed? I have emailed NT VIP, but have yet to receive a response. Thanks.

[IlliniRyRy]

"As a result of the recent US legislative changes and related events, NETELLER announced that effective immediately, its US members will no longer be able to make fund transfers to or from any online gambling sites. We would like to assure you that we value your business and will continue to service your customers in all of our other currently supported countries."

So what's the deal now, how do I withdraw from UB? I'm clueless!

[JayA]

Good question. I guess we'll have to email support at our respected sites.

[Fat Nicky]

[ QUOTE ]
"As a result of the recent US legislative changes and related events, NETELLER announced that effective immediately, its US members will no longer be able to make fund transfers to or from any online gambling sites. We would like to assure you that we value your business and will continue to service your customers in all of our other currently supported countries."

So what's the deal now, how do I withdraw from UB? I'm clueless!

[/ QUOTE ]

Either paper check, or set up a new e-wallet account (epassporte, etc), make a small deposit, then epassporte will be available as a withdrawal method.

[Mhoram]

I just started a thread on the Full Tilt forum asking them to post all our alternatives either in the forum or on the site.

http://pokerforums.fulltiltpoker.com/viewtopic.php?t=23734

[DoGMaTiCMD]

[ QUOTE ]
I just started a thread on the Full Tilt forum asking them to post all our alternatives either in the forum or on the site.

[/ QUOTE ]

Edit this with a link, perhaps?

[Sniper]

[ QUOTE ]
Sniper, since you are really on top of this stuff, can you comment on the rumors that EFTs from Neteller to banks are not being processed? I have emailed NT VIP, but have yet to receive a response. Thanks.

[/ QUOTE ]

Homer, as I understand it, there is a volume/processing issue that is causing some problems.

fwiw, I am not moving ANY $$$ today... so while I hesitate to make a recommendation, I am sitting on my hands.

There is a possibility that Neteller may need to create a new intermediary processor... but since I don't know anything concrete on that, I don't really want to speculate on that.

[Homer]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Sniper, since you are really on top of this stuff, can you comment on the rumors that EFTs from Neteller to banks are not being processed? I have emailed NT VIP, but have yet to receive a response. Thanks.

[/ QUOTE ]

Homer, as I understand it, there is a volume/processing issue that is causing some problems.

fwiw, I am not moving ANY $$$ today... so while I hesitate to make a recommendation, I am sitting on my hands.

There is a possibility that Neteller may need to create a new intermediary processor... but since I don't know anything concrete on that, I don't really want to speculate on that.

[/ QUOTE ]

Thanks, Sniper. I just found a convo that someone from therx had with NT live help that says the same thing...

Kriya: NETELLER continues to allow US members to transfer funds to non-gambling merchants. Additionally, NETELLER offers a peer-to-peer transfer service that allows members to instantly send money to friends and family around the world. US member NETELLER accounts will NOT be closed, your funds will continue to be held securely and you will always have full access to funds held by NETELLER. Currently we are experiencing unprecedented volumes through our withdrawals department. Due to this volume there maybe delays of up to 2 weeks for an EFT withdrawal and 6-8 weeks for cheque withdrawal. If you have any further questions, please visit

[GuyOnTilt]

[ QUOTE ]
Sniper, since you are really on top of this stuff, can you comment on the rumors that EFTs from Neteller to banks are not being processed? I have emailed NT VIP, but have yet to receive a response. Thanks.

[/ QUOTE ]

FWIW, I started an EFT from Neteller to my bank over the weekend. My Neteller acct says it's been put thru, but it hasn't shown up in my bank acct balance, which has never happened before.

[Right5]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Sniper, since you are really on top of this stuff, can you comment on the rumors that EFTs from Neteller to banks are not being processed? I have emailed NT VIP, but have yet to receive a response. Thanks.

[/ QUOTE ]

Homer, as I understand it, there is a volume/processing issue that is causing some problems.

fwiw, I am not moving ANY $$$ today... so while I hesitate to make a recommendation, I am sitting on my hands.

There is a possibility that Neteller may need to create a new intermediary processor... but since I don't know anything concrete on that, I don't really want to speculate on that.

[/ QUOTE ]

Thanks, Sniper. I just found a convo that someone from therx had with NT live help that says the same thing...

Kriya: NETELLER continues to allow US members to transfer funds to non-gambling merchants. Additionally, NETELLER offers a peer-to-peer transfer service that allows members to instantly send money to friends and family around the world. US member NETELLER accounts will NOT be closed, your funds will continue to be held securely and you will always have full access to funds held by NETELLER. Currently we are experiencing unprecedented volumes through our withdrawals department. Due to this volume there maybe delays of up to 2 weeks for an EFT withdrawal and 6-8 weeks for cheque withdrawal. If you have any further questions, please visit

[/ QUOTE ]

LOL, oh great, I have an EFT that was "accepted" on Neteller yet still not in my bank account. I need it to pay some bills tomorrow, I'm not going to see it for a while am I? I'm really regretting not transfering all money to stars righ tnow

[Entity]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Sniper, since you are really on top of this stuff, can you comment on the rumors that EFTs from Neteller to banks are not being processed? I have emailed NT VIP, but have yet to receive a response. Thanks.

[/ QUOTE ]

FWIW, I started an EFT from Neteller to my bank over the weekend. My Neteller acct says it's been put thru, but it hasn't shown up in my bank acct balance, which has never happened before.

[/ QUOTE ]

Ugh. I've got $10k I withdrew yesterday as "Pending."

Really hope we don't have anything to worry about here and it's only a temporary delay. In the meantime I've got ~4k in Neteller that I don't know what to do with. Gonna let it sit for now.

Rob

[viciouspenguin]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Sniper, since you are really on top of this stuff, can you comment on the rumors that EFTs from Neteller to banks are not being processed? I have emailed NT VIP, but have yet to receive a response. Thanks.

[/ QUOTE ]

FWIW, I started an EFT from Neteller to my bank over the weekend. My Neteller acct says it's been put thru, but it hasn't shown up in my bank acct balance, which has never happened before.

[/ QUOTE ]

im in the same boat. strange. can anyone post or pm me if they have any updates on this? thanks

[viciouspenguin]

nevermind... just missed it. "Due to this volume there maybe delays of up to 2 weeks for an EFT withdrawal"

[celiboy]

[ QUOTE ]
nevermind... just missed it. "Due to this volume there maybe delays of up to 2 weeks for an EFT withdrawal"

[/ QUOTE ]

From therx.com....an inside source....

NETeller is not out of money. The reason that NETeller is delaying your payouts is because their own payment processors, (Some US companies) have stopped doing business with them.

Thus NETeller has no way of moving the money!

.....

Might be true as volume should have no impact on the timing of cashouts. What does it matter if they process 1000 cashouts versus 1000000 cashouts. It's not like they manually approve each one and the ACH system is designed to handle millions of transactions daily, so their excuse is sketchy.

[Right5]

From Neteller chat regarding EFT's:

Irma: we are having some problems with our third party proccesors, the funds will be return to your neteller account.

[celiboy]

[ QUOTE ]
From Neteller chat regarding EFT's:

Irma: we are having some problems with our third party proccesors, the funds will be return to your neteller account.

[/ QUOTE ]


In other words everyone is completely [censored] as banks are now refusing to handle their transactions...

[viciouspenguin]

can i buy stuff on ebay with neteller? maybe i'll just buy a car now.

[Sniper]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
From Neteller chat regarding EFT's:

Irma: we are having some problems with our third party proccesors, the funds will be return to your neteller account.

[/ QUOTE ]


In other words everyone is completely [censored] as banks are now refusing to handle their transactions...

[/ QUOTE ]

No... (not yet)

[DopamineRelease]

I have recently talked with a Neteller representative, I hope it can help anybody dealing with Full Tilt. See my post in this thread >>>>

http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/showfl...part=2&vc=1 (http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/showflat.php?Cat=0&Number=8800792&page=0&fpart=2&v c=1)

[SuperUberBob]

Eh, people will just switch over to Click2Pay or something like that to transfer their money over, no?

Not the end of the world. You guys act as if online poker will cease to exist.

[MasterLJ]

[ QUOTE ]
Eh, people will just switch over to Click2Pay or something like that to transfer their money over, no?

Not the end of the world. You guys act as if online poker will cease to exist.

[/ QUOTE ]

ePassPort etc etc

Neteller isn't the end all beat all.

[Kermit]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
From Neteller chat regarding EFT's:

Irma: we are having some problems with our third party proccesors, the funds will be return to your neteller account.

[/ QUOTE ]

No... (not yet)

[/ QUOTE ]



In other words everyone is completely [censored] as banks are now refusing to handle their transactions...

[/ QUOTE ]


Okay, I know this is a stupid question, but....

why is it that we can no longer deposit using neteller, but can still deposit directly onto these sites with eChecks/paper checks if the legislation was intended to stop banks from doing business with online gambling sites?

Kermit

[Leader]

[ QUOTE ]
Eh, people will just switch over to Click2Pay or something like that to transfer their money over, no?

Not the end of the world. You guys act as if online poker will cease to exist.

[/ QUOTE ]

Every time something bad happens a certain percent of people panic and turn off their brains. You see it in sports all the time. You see it in business too. Like if you had been standing in the NT offices today, you would have seen it.

[DopamineRelease]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Eh, people will just switch over to Click2Pay or something like that to transfer their money over, no?

Not the end of the world. You guys act as if online poker will cease to exist.

[/ QUOTE ]

ePassPort etc etc

Neteller isn't the end all beat all.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yes, this will probably happen ...

But won't most of these pay sites just continue to close to the US?

[Leader]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Eh, people will just switch over to Click2Pay or something like that to transfer their money over, no?

Not the end of the world. You guys act as if online poker will cease to exist.

[/ QUOTE ]

ePassPort etc etc

Neteller isn't the end all beat all.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yes, this will probably happen ...

But won't most of these pay sites just continue to close to the US?

[/ QUOTE ]

no because people that don't have money want money and people that do have money want to protect it. This is why NT left and other sites won't. This is why Party left and other sites didn't.

[Sniper]

[ QUOTE ]
Okay, I know this is a stupid question, but....

why is it that we can no longer deposit using neteller, but can still deposit directly onto these sites with eChecks/paper checks if the legislation was intended to stop banks from doing business with online gambling sites?

Kermit

[/ QUOTE ]

Because Neteller decided to stop processing US transactions with gambling sites...

[Sniper]

[ QUOTE ]
Eh, people will just switch over to Click2Pay or something like that to transfer their money over, no?

Not the end of the world. You guys act as if online poker will cease to exist.

[/ QUOTE ]

SUB,

I didn't see anyone say online poker will cease to exist, EXCEPT YOU! /images/graemlins/smile.gif

While it is not the end of the world, Neteller's actions are a SIGNIFICANT event...

[LetsGambool]

Hi all,

Just had a chat with Neteller, and wanted to share. Dont know if anyone is in my situation, so take it for what its worth.

My situation is I had deposited $5000 on Sunday, the money is no longer in my bank account but the EFT is still pending. No sweat, this usually takes a week, but wanted to check whether there would be a problem....last answer is not encouraging.

Marcella: Hello.
xxx: Hello Marcella
Marcella: We are experiencing some major delays right now.
xxx: OK, Im talking about the transaction I made on Sunday where the money has already left my bank account.
xxx: Will that $5,000 still appear in my Neteller account in a reasonable timeframe given the money has left my account? Understand that there are delays around withdrawals right now.
xxx: Are you still there?
Marcella: Sorry, I cannot say when the funds will reach your NETeller account. We are trying our best to get some answers.
xxx: Where is the money then? Because the funds have already left my bank account. Is there any way to reverse the transaction?
Marcella: Unfortunately we cannot reverse right now. We are wiating for updates.
xxxx: Wow. OK, so I just dont have my $5000 then, that's unfortunate.
xxxxx: Is the problem that third-party processors will not do business with Neteller right now or is there a liquidity issue?
Marcella: You can view any updates at http://updates.neteller.com.
xxxxx: Yeah, Ive read that, none of that helps answer my question. Frustrating, I know you guys are in a tough spot here, but frustrating on my end since the money is out of my account and is apparantly going to disapper into the ether.
Marcella: We don't know what is going to happen at this point. We are waiting for updates.
xxxxx: Can you assure me I will be paid in full?
Marcella: I cannot make any promises.

[JayA]

Whoa, kinda scary. =\

[Homer]

[ QUOTE ]
Hi all,

Just had a chat with Neteller, and wanted to share. Dont know if anyone is in my situation, so take it for what its worth.

My situation is I had deposited $5000 on Sunday, the money is no longer in my bank account but the EFT is still pending. No sweat, this usually takes a week, but wanted to check whether there would be a problem....last answer is not encouraging.

Marcella: Hello.
xxx: Hello Marcella
Marcella: We are experiencing some major delays right now.
xxx: OK, Im talking about the transaction I made on Sunday where the money has already left my bank account.
xxx: Will that $5,000 still appear in my Neteller account in a reasonable timeframe given the money has left my account? Understand that there are delays around withdrawals right now.
xxx: Are you still there?
Marcella: Sorry, I cannot say when the funds will reach your NETeller account. We are trying our best to get some answers.
xxx: Where is the money then? Because the funds have already left my bank account. Is there any way to reverse the transaction?
Marcella: Unfortunately we cannot reverse right now. We are wiating for updates.
xxxx: Wow. OK, so I just dont have my $5000 then, that's unfortunate.
xxxxx: Is the problem that third-party processors will not do business with Neteller right now or is there a liquidity issue?
Marcella: You can view any updates at http://updates.neteller.com.
xxxxx: Yeah, Ive read that, none of that helps answer my question. Frustrating, I know you guys are in a tough spot here, but frustrating on my end since the money is out of my account and is apparantly going to disapper into the ether.
Marcella: We don't know what is going to happen at this point. We are waiting for updates.
xxxxx: Can you assure me I will be paid in full?
Marcella: I cannot make any promises.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is pretty sick.

[Performify]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
lol spammers

[/ QUOTE ]

Even worse, spamming for PP in a thread being read primarily by US customers, and clearly being actively posted in by a mod /images/graemlins/wink.gif

May have been my fastest spam ban... unfortunately, I can't delete his post... sigh (I expect a Leg mod will clean it up shortly)

[/ QUOTE ]

Not as soon as I would have liked, but...

[ QUOTE ]
Post deleted. In a moment you will be automatically returned to the forum.

[/ QUOTE ]

[LetsGambool]

Yeah, Im hoping the legal team has clamped down and told them not to comment on anything, because on its face this doesnt sound good.

Wasnt really worried until the last comment....but that's not good.

[suzzer99]

I think Marcella was told not to make any promises, but obviously isn't using common sense in her wording here. I had a similar chat where neteller charged my account twice for the same deposit. I was told the charges couldn't be reversed and there was no timeline for when I would be credited back. I was credited later that day.

[Sniper]

[ QUOTE ]
Not as soon as I would have liked, but...

[/ QUOTE ]

Thanks Perf... much appreciated... its been a hectic day /images/graemlins/wink.gif

[suzzer99]

So who's the mostly likely target from Poker Stars for the feds to nab next? Are any of their execs in the country? Any former founders? Lee Jones isn't the most Costa Rican sounding name I ever heard. Maybe they'll just go after his family like the Mafia does. Raymer/Moneymaker/Hachem safe?

[LetsGambool]

OK, that makes me feel a little better, thanks.

Hopefully its just CYA orders, which makes some sense.

Not trying to cause panic, was just surprised not to get the "your funds are safe and secure in a segregated account" response and figured people could interpret as they see fit based on their experiences.

Crossing my fingers.....

[Sniper]

[ QUOTE ]
xxxxx: Can you assure me I will be paid in full?
Marcella: I cannot make any promises.

[/ QUOTE ]

Wow.. That's really bad... should have asked to speak to a supervisor at that point...

[JayA]

[ QUOTE ]
So who's the mostly likely target from Poker Stars for the feds to nab next? Are any of their execs in the country? Any former founders? Lee Jones isn't the most Costa Rican sounding name I ever heard. Maybe they'll just go after his family like the Mafia does. Raymer/Moneymaker/Hachem safe?

[/ QUOTE ]

Well if any of those people are not save from arrests, then that means there are pros from Full Tilt who would fall into the same category (i.e. Lederer, Ferguson, etc.).

Meh...Idk. /images/graemlins/confused.gif

[Leader]

[ QUOTE ]
So who's the mostly likely target from Poker Stars for the feds to nab next?

[/ QUOTE ]

We live in a poker world, but poker is not the center of the world. This is about sports betting and casinos 10x more then it's about poker. The whole case against these two NT guys is about a bet on an NFL game for example.

[ QUOTE ]
Are any of their execs in the country?

[/ QUOTE ]

Almost certainly they are not.

[ QUOTE ]
Raymer/Moneymaker/Hachem safe?

[/ QUOTE ]

I believe arresting them would be like arresting people in Eron commercials.

[Eric Stoner]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Eh, people will just switch over to Click2Pay or something like that to transfer their money over, no?

Not the end of the world. You guys act as if online poker will cease to exist.

[/ QUOTE ]

SUB,

I didn't see anyone say online poker will cease to exist, EXCEPT YOU! /images/graemlins/smile.gif

While it is not the end of the world, Neteller's actions are a SIGNIFICANT event...

[/ QUOTE ]

When that unfortunate act passed by congress back in the fall, I had a bad feeling that it would come to this and many focused on the funding methods used to put money into the poker economy.

I was told then by many here that I missed the point completely. I even got "Do you see why?" response.

If banks or other processors are refusing Neteller's transactions, I think the more direct methods funidng online poker rooms will be soon behind.

This is not a good day.

[Leader]

[ QUOTE ]
Well if any of those people are not save from arrests, then that means there are pros from Full Tilt who would fall into the same category (i.e. Lederer, Ferguson, etc.).

Meh...Idk. /images/graemlins/confused.gif

[/ QUOTE ]

These guys are in slightly deeper from what I've heard because they own the software for FT. They're probably ok, but they're def. more of a target then the Stars spokesmen.

[Sniper]

[ QUOTE ]
The whole case against these two NT guys is about a bet on an NFL game for example.

[/ QUOTE ]

Leader, I suggest you read the full complaint...

[JayA]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Well if any of those people are not save from arrests, then that means there are pros from Full Tilt who would fall into the same category (i.e. Lederer, Ferguson, etc.).

Meh...Idk. /images/graemlins/confused.gif

[/ QUOTE ]

These guys are in slightly deeper from what I've heard because they own the software for FT. They're probably ok, but they're def. more of a target then the Stars spokesmen.

[/ QUOTE ]

You're right. The original team Full Tilt may be in a bit deep because they all contribute to the creation and updates of Full Tilt. That will be interesting to see if the gov't goes after people like Lederer and Ferguson.

[*TT*]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Well if any of those people are not save from arrests, then that means there are pros from Full Tilt who would fall into the same category (i.e. Lederer, Ferguson, etc.).

Meh...Idk. /images/graemlins/confused.gif

[/ QUOTE ]

These guys are in slightly deeper from what I've heard because they own the software for FT. They're probably ok, but they're def. more of a target then the Stars spokesmen.

[/ QUOTE ]

Lederer no longer lives in the USA, Full Tilt has relocated to Ireland earlier this year.

TT /images/graemlins/club.gif

[Sniper]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Well if any of those people are not save from arrests, then that means there are pros from Full Tilt who would fall into the same category (i.e. Lederer, Ferguson, etc.).

Meh...Idk. /images/graemlins/confused.gif

[/ QUOTE ]

These guys are in slightly deeper from what I've heard because they own the software for FT. They're probably ok, but they're def. more of a target then the Stars spokesmen.

[/ QUOTE ]

Lederer no longer lives in the USA, Full Tilt has relocated to Ireland earlier this year.

TT /images/graemlins/club.gif

[/ QUOTE ]

... and he has no intention of playing tournaments in the US ever again??

[JayA]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Well if any of those people are not save from arrests, then that means there are pros from Full Tilt who would fall into the same category (i.e. Lederer, Ferguson, etc.).

Meh...Idk. /images/graemlins/confused.gif

[/ QUOTE ]

These guys are in slightly deeper from what I've heard because they own the software for FT. They're probably ok, but they're def. more of a target then the Stars spokesmen.

[/ QUOTE ]

Lederer no longer lives in the USA, Full Tilt has relocated to Ireland earlier this year.

TT /images/graemlins/club.gif

[/ QUOTE ]

You are right. Forgot he went to Ireland. But this guy brings up an interesting point...

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

Look kids: The United States does not have juridiction outside its borders. Pokersites are not set up on U.S. soil. Therefore they have no jurisdiction. It's that simple.



[/ QUOTE ]

Obviously, you're not a lawyer. A better answer is, if a person (even a foreign one) does business in our country, it's subject to our courts. Poker sites in general have gone to great lengths to establish their domicile in foreign countries, but the fact is many of them rely on American players for much of their revenue. Thus, they are subject to our laws and our legal system, notwithstanding their self-serving comments. Just because they strongly believe that's not the case doesn't make it so.

[/ QUOTE ]

It is true that the companies by doing business with u.s. citizens have established continuous and systematic contacts sufficient to give the U.S. courts jurisdiction over them. However, all extradition treaties require that the act be a crime in both countries. So while a U.S. court would have the jurisdiction to indict the head of a company, if they can't get the host country to extradite, how are they supposed to actually stop them?

[/ QUOTE ]

So do you think Party and Neteller are just being too precautious or overthinking this act?

[/ QUOTE ]

[/ QUOTE ]

http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/showfl...c=1#Post8807877 (http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/showflat.php?Cat=0&Number=8807877&page=0&vc=1#Post 8807877)

What effect do you think this point would have on sites such as Full Tilt and Stars?

[xx44]

2 months from now those supernova tournies are going to be VERY nice, wonder if PS will change the structure ?

[Mhoram]

Has anyone from a poker site been arrested? Being the guys that move the money (Neteller) isn't exactly the same as being the guys that accept the money.

I was under the impression that the poker sites and their owners/ceos weren't doing anything illegal.

[Sniper]

[ QUOTE ]
Has anyone from a poker site been arrested? Being the guys that move the money (Neteller) isn't exactly the same as being the guys that accept the money.

I was under the impression that the poker sites and their owners/ceos weren't doing anything illegal.

[/ QUOTE ]

Where did you get that impression from?...

[Mhoram]

I don't remember clearly enough to say that it was more than just an impression from all the 2+2 threads back in october.

Anyway, it's hard to believe that guys like Lederer (who has experience with this sort of thing i.e. New York) would put themselves in a position where they could be arrested if they enter the country. Could online poker have been so lucrative that they were willing to give up Las Vegas and never play another WSOP event?

Common sense says they must have given themselves some protection here.

[JayA]

[ QUOTE ]
I don't remember clearly enough to say that it was more than just an impression from all the 2+2 threads back in october.

Anyway, it's hard to believe that guys like Lederer (who has experience with this sort of thing i.e. New York) would put themselves in a position where they could be arrested if they enter the country. Could online poker have been so lucrative that they were willing to give up Las Vegas and never play another WSOP event?

Common sense says they must have given themselves some protection here.

[/ QUOTE ]

That's what I would hope too. I can let you know when I find out. But since he's part owner and founder of Full Tilt...Idk. I'm not sure on the exacts of if anything could happen to him.

[JayA]

Did I just kill the thread? /images/graemlins/frown.gif

[Dennisa]

[ QUOTE ]
So who's the mostly likely target from Poker Stars for the feds to nab next? Are any of their execs in the country? Any former founders? Lee Jones isn't the most Costa Rican sounding name I ever heard. Maybe they'll just go after his family like the Mafia does. Raymer/Moneymaker/Hachem safe?

[/ QUOTE ]

If the DOJ wants to make a big headline and hurt poker, then they will try to seize thrid party payments from online pokersites for the 2007 WSOP. I would guess Harrah's would comply.

[ QUOTE ]
Hi all,

Just had a chat with Neteller, and wanted to share. Dont know if anyone is in my situation, so take it for what its worth.

My situation is I had deposited $5000 on Sunday, the money is no longer in my bank account but the EFT is still pending. No sweat, this usually takes a week, but wanted to check whether there would be a problem....last answer is not encouraging.

Marcella: Hello.
xxx: Hello Marcella
Marcella: We are experiencing some major delays right now.
xxx: OK, Im talking about the transaction I made on Sunday where the money has already left my bank account.
xxx: Will that $5,000 still appear in my Neteller account in a reasonable timeframe given the money has left my account? Understand that there are delays around withdrawals right now.
xxx: Are you still there?
Marcella: Sorry, I cannot say when the funds will reach your NETeller account. We are trying our best to get some answers.
xxx: Where is the money then? Because the funds have already left my bank account. Is there any way to reverse the transaction?
Marcella: Unfortunately we cannot reverse right now. We are wiating for updates.
xxxx: Wow. OK, so I just dont have my $5000 then, that's unfortunate.
xxxxx: Is the problem that third-party processors will not do business with Neteller right now or is there a liquidity issue?
Marcella: You can view any updates at http://updates.neteller.com.
xxxxx: Yeah, Ive read that, none of that helps answer my question. Frustrating, I know you guys are in a tough spot here, but frustrating on my end since the money is out of my account and is apparantly going to disapper into the ether.
Marcella: We don't know what is going to happen at this point. We are waiting for updates.
xxxxx: Can you assure me I will be paid in full?
Marcella: I cannot make any promises.

[/ QUOTE ]
wtf..

[Leader]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
The whole case against these two NT guys is about a bet on an NFL game for example.

[/ QUOTE ]

Leader, I suggest you read the full complaint...

[/ QUOTE ]

"whole case" was incorrect phrasing. What I meant was that it was only peripherally about poker and that the specific transaction the government is citing as the basis of the case is a sports betting one, which exemplifies the point that the government sees this much more as a sports betting issue then a poker issue. So the next company they go after is likely to be a sports book or online casino and not Pokerstars.

[JayA]

[ QUOTE ]

"whole case" was incorrect phrasing. What I meant was that it was only peripherally about poker and that the specific transaction the government is citing as the basis of the case is a sports betting one, which exemplifies the point that the government sees this much more as a sports betting issue then a poker issue. So the next company they go after is likely to be a sports book or online casino and not Pokerstars.

[/ QUOTE ]

Makes sense. Seems like poker is just being thrown around in the middle of all of this. =\

[jtflush29]

Has anyone actual had confirmation that some Banks are not acceptingt EFT?

[Leader]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

"whole case" was incorrect phrasing. What I meant was that it was only peripherally about poker and that the specific transaction the government is citing as the basis of the case is a sports betting one, which exemplifies the point that the government sees this much more as a sports betting issue then a poker issue. So the next company they go after is likely to be a sports book or online casino and not Pokerstars.

[/ QUOTE ]

Makes sense. Seems like poker is just being thrown around in the middle of all of this. =\

[/ QUOTE ]

That's exactly what's happening. Unfortunately poker is going to be much more effected by this then sportsbooks because you have to play against other players. A sportsbook is going to be there regardless. If you want to bet, all you have to do is get the money there and that will always be possible if not easy. In poker, other people have to get their money there which means you have to rely on there will and intelligence. I tend to think the average fish has a bit more will then most people here, but there are, of course, limits.

[thetruest]

[ QUOTE ]
Why do I feel like the U.S. is turning into a Communist state? This country is great at some things, but sucks at most.

Hey US Govt, it's called PROTECT OUR FREEDOMS, NOT TAKE THEM AWAY!!

[/ QUOTE ]

exactly how is that a "communist" state. It's going to FASCIST [censored] EXACTLY because of the masses of politically ignorant people







edited to remove unnecessary personal attack -P

[Zele]

Fascists and Communists are similar in two ways:

1/ Both were responsible for the deaths of tens of millions of people.

2/ Neither have a place in this debate.

[Mhoram]

Let's keep the political commentary to more appropriate forums please.

[thetruest]

[ QUOTE ]
Eh, people will just switch over to Click2Pay or something like that to transfer their money over, no?

Not the end of the world. You guys act as if online poker will cease to exist.

[/ QUOTE ]

No, we act as if we're fed up of this country.

[thetruest]

[ QUOTE ]
Fascists and Communists are similar in two ways:

1/ Both were responsible for the deaths of tens of millions of people.

2/ Neither have a place in this debate.

[/ QUOTE ]

[ QUOTE ]
Let's keep the political commentary to more appropriate forums please.

[/ QUOTE ]

ouch! did somethin get under both of your skins? /images/graemlins/diamond.gif

[webmonarch]

[ QUOTE ]
Let's keep the political commentary to more appropriate forums please.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yeah, how did this thread go from Neteller to fascism? That's a pretty wild transition, even for us.

[Tiburon]

If I have funds in my Neteller account and I open a Click2Pay account, is it possible to transfer the funds to the new account directly? Would I have to just withdraw to my bank account and then deposit to click2pay?

[PropPlayer]

[ QUOTE ]
If I have funds in my Neteller account and I open a Click2Pay account, is it possible to transfer the funds to the new account directly? Would I have to just withdraw to my bank account and then deposit to click2pay?

[/ QUOTE ]

If you have a debit card and the amount is a few grand or less load to the debit card and take out $1K each day. This is much better idea then trying to EFT out of Neteller right now.

[Botchman]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Well if any of those people are not save from arrests, then that means there are pros from Full Tilt who would fall into the same category (i.e. Lederer, Ferguson, etc.).

Meh...Idk. /images/graemlins/confused.gif

[/ QUOTE ]

These guys are in slightly deeper from what I've heard because they own the software for FT. They're probably ok, but they're def. more of a target then the Stars spokesmen.

[/ QUOTE ]
And I would hope if they were to be charged that no jury in the states would be willing to convict them, I think they are going to have a hard time convicting the 2 NT founders as well.

[suzzer99]

The case will never even go to trial. The govt will agree to drop the charges and let the dudes out of jail if they agree to not sue or make a fuss in the media. That's how shakedowns work.

[kassdog]

Don't they have to go to trial becaue i heard they paid thier bond. One million i think, so don't they have to go to court to get it back.

[jrbick]

Wow. I go to sleep for 9 hours and [censored] hits the fan.

Ok I just double checked my EFTs that I placed well before this [censored] hit the news wire that arrests had even been made.

Neteller says "Accepted"

Bank account has not received them. Lots of thumb twiddling on my end.


EDIT: heh i prob shouldn't hit the panic button so quickly, just realized it's only 5am. If it doesn't hit by tomorrow though, i'll probably start beating the pavement.

[Billman]

[ QUOTE ]

Every time something bad happens a certain percent of people panic and turn off their brains. You see it in sports all the time. You see it in business too. Like if you had been standing in the NT offices today, you would have seen it.

[/ QUOTE ]

And every time something bad happens a certain percent of the people claim that it's an isolated incident that will not have any major impact. So far, if you look at the total overall online poker market size and growth rates (pre-UIGEA and post), it looks like the pessamists are winning.

[Sniper]

[ QUOTE ]
Has anyone actual had confirmation that some Banks are not acceptingt EFT?

[/ QUOTE ]

The issue is not the Banks (at the moment)... its the 3rd party processors that Neteller uses... likely those companies named as intermediaries in the action against the 2 NT Founders /images/graemlins/wink.gif

[Sniper]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Let's keep the political commentary to more appropriate forums please.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yeah, how did this thread go from Neteller to fascism? That's a pretty wild transition, even for us.

[/ QUOTE ]

OK, so I actually decide to get a little sleep, and this thread turns upside down.... time to get back on track...

[Sniper]

[ QUOTE ]
If I have funds in my Neteller account and I open a Click2Pay account, is it possible to transfer the funds to the new account directly? Would I have to just withdraw to my bank account and then deposit to click2pay?

[/ QUOTE ]

Last I heard, there was no direct way to transfer from Neteller to Click2Pay... Withdraw from one, redeposit to the other is the option.

[thetruest]

[ QUOTE ]
Yeah, how did this thread go from Neteller to fascism? That's a pretty wild transition, even for us.

[/ QUOTE ]

Ok, i posted this before (i'm kinda sure you saw it anyway), but i'll be a little nicer this time since it seems like you're a little disabled and need a little help. Someone mentioned 'communist' earlier-- goto the post that has you confused, and just look at what it was responding to. This will answer your question. Or, since you may not be able to comprehend this and need to do things the long way, if you hit the key that says "Page Up" on the righter side of your keyboard, you will see it somewhere here. Maybe.

[Sniper]

<font color="Blue"> TRADING UPDATE </font>


NETELLER Plc (LSE: NLR), the leading independent online money transfer business, today issued the following update regarding its position in the US market in the light of the Unlawful Internet Gaming Enforcement Act of 2006 (the "Act" or "UIGEA") and the Act's associated anticipated regulations.

<font color="blue"> US market withdrawal </font>

-Withdrawal of US Transfers to Gambling Merchants: The Board confirms that the Group will cease processing online transactions related to gambling for the US market with effect from today <font color="Red">in light of the passing of the UIGEA and the uncertainties and likely delays relating to the drafting and implementing of regulations.</font>

-Phased Compliance: This announcement reflects the culmination of a series of deliberations and steps the Group has taken since the passing of the UIGEA in October 2006. Previous steps have included the development of country blocking and instant funds transfer restriction enhancements to the Group's software platform.

-Timeline: As of today Thursday 18 January 2007, at 12:01AM GMT, US resident customers were no longer able to transfer funds using NETELLER's services to or from any online gambling site.

-Continued Safe Choice: Customer funds, including those of US residents, are held in segregated trust accounts and are fully secure and will be available for withdrawal by customers, on demand. US customers continue to be able to use their e-wallet accounts for non-gambling transactions.

-Group's Future Focus: These decisions will allow the Group to focus on opportunities available in the growing markets of Europe, Asia and the Americas outside of the United States.


<font color="blue"> Recent US developments </font>

-On 16 January 2007 shares in the Company were temporarily suspended pending clarification of the situation surrounding the detention, by US authorities, of Mr Stephen Lawrence and Mr John Lefebvre, two founder shareholders and former directors of the Company.

-On 16 January 2007 the US Attorney's office in the Southern District of New York charged Mssrs. Lawrence and Lefebvre <font color="Green">with conspiring to transfer funds with the intent to promote illegal gambling.</font> The charges are a matter of public record. As of this point, neither of Mssrs. Lawrence nor Lefebvre has responded to the charges. The federal authorities allege as one of the bases in the complaints against Mssrs. Lawrence and Lefebvre <font color="Green">that NETELLER's involvement in handling financial transactions between gambling customers in the United States and numerous offshore online gaming businesses constitutes illegal conduct. </font>

<font color="Red"> -As noted above, today's withdrawal from the US market by NETELLER is the culmination of months of careful planning. Along with this action, the Group is actively assessing what further steps it may take in light of the two arrests made earlier this week to clarify the Company's position in this matter.

-Pending further clarification of this the shares of the Company will remain suspended.</font>


<font color="Blue"> Trading highlights </font>

- Following the passage of the UIGEA and as preparations for a withdrawal of services to US residents were being completed, the Group experienced slowing fourth quarter growth in terms of customer receipts and new customer sign ups.

- Average daily receipts from customers in Q4 2006: US $5.75m; average daily new customer sign ups for Q4 2006: 3,493; total customers at 31 December 2006: 3,526,325.

- Active customers in Q4 2006: 640,701, with a growing percentage from outside of the United States.

- Revenue for the full year 2006 expected to be between US$ 255 million and US$ 260 million.

- Continued focus on geographic diversification through further product launches in response to customer and merchant demand, in particular in Europe and Asia.

- Realignment of Group's cost base commenced in Q4 2006.


<font color="Blue"> Voluntary withdrawal from US </font>

The Board today confirms that the Group has voluntarily ceased processing funds transfers between NETELLER e-wallets and online gambling merchants on behalf of US residents. This decision represents the culmination of a series of deliberations over recent months by the Board which, in light of impending regulations related to the Act, believed that NETELLER's position in the US market was no longer sustainable. Since the passing of the Act, the Company has been working diligently on a programme of operational and technical planning measures and procedures to allow implementation of any such decision at the earliest opportunity. NETELLER has committed to an orderly withdrawal for the benefit of its customers and will endeavour to maintain a high degree of service throughout the process.

With immediate effect, as of today Thursday 18 January 2007, at 12:01AM GMT, US resident customers were no longer able to transfer funds using their NETELLER e-wallets to or from any online gambling site.

In line with the Group's standard business practices for all customers, the funds of US resident customers are held in segregated trust accounts and are fully secure and will be available for withdrawal by customers, on demand. The ability to withdraw funds will exist regardless of the customer's location or ability to transfer to any site. All US resident customers will continue to be able to use their NETELLER e-wallet accounts to safely transfer funds to and from non-gambling merchants and are not required to close their accounts or withdraw their funds.

NETELLER customers not resident in the US are not affected at all by this withdrawal from the US market. The Group will continue to operate its non-US business as normal, maintaining existing customer and merchant support across all the markets it currently serves.

In order to be able to support this US withdrawal, NETELLER has dedicated the last few months to developing product enhancements to its software platform in order to be able to block automatically transfers to online gambling merchants from US residents. These features are now fully deployed and integrated into the Group's core platform.

Today's updated position with respect to the US market leaves the Group able to focus on its continuing business and the opportunities available in the growing markets of Europe, Asia and the Americas outside of the United States. NETELLER remains focused on developing its business in line with its stated strategic objectives, including geographical and product diversification for all markets. The Group will continue to launch localised services within the global market and a number of new product launches are scheduled for early this year.


<font color="Blue"> Operational Highlights </font>

Average daily receipts from customers was approximately US $5.75 million during Q4 2006 (Q4 2005: US $4.18 million) - representing an increase of 38 %. Q4 average daily receipts from customers were up by 8 % on the Q3 2006 average daily receipts of US $5.31 million. Average daily receipts from customers for the full year 2006 were US $5.11 million, up by 50% on average daily receipts for 2005 of US $3.44 million.

As at 31 December 2006, NETELLER had 3,526,325 signed-up customers, an increase of 1,205,656 or 52 % from 2,320,670 since 31 December 2005. Average daily sign-ups of new customers was 3,493 during Q4 2006 (Q3 2006: 3,197) - representing an increase of 9 %. North American sign ups were 74 % of total sign ups in the fourth quarter, with the Americas outside the United States accounting for 8 %. European sign ups represented 20 % of total Q4 2006 sign ups, while Asia / ROW represented 6 %. Average daily sign-ups were 3,303 for the year to 31 December 2006 compared to 2,930 for 2005 - representing an increase of 13%.

Total active customers in the quarter were 640,701, an increase of 29 % from Q4 2005 and an increase of 3 % from Q3 2006. Of these, 24 % of our active customers in Q4 2006 came from outside of the US, compared with 23 % in Q3 2006. 548,870 were from North America, including 59,335 from the Americas outside the United States (9 % of the total), 11 % (71,421) were from Europe, and 3 % (20,410) were from Asia / ROW.


<font color="Blue"> Financial Highlights </font>

Performance during the fourth quarter of 2006 is slightly lower than seasonal trends as a result of the passing of the Act on 13 October 2006. As a result, the Company expects that revenue for the full year is likely to be between US $255 million and US $260 million. Fee income will likely represent between US $237 million and US $242 million of this total, with interest income making up the balance. This 2006 revenue estimate is unaudited and is subject to change in conjunction with the Company's final close procedures and external audit.

Since 13 October 2006, a programme to realign the Group's cost base was commenced which identified staff reductions and other initiatives to realise cost savings on an annualised basis. These will continue in line with expected reductions in volumes of transfers and customer enquiries through the Group's contact centres since the Company has ceased processing funds transfers for US residents related to online gambling.

The total cash costs associated with staff restructuring are expected to be in the region of US$ 1.1 million in 2006 and a further US$ 3.7 million in 2007. <font color="Red">Bad debt is expected to temporarily spike by approximately US$10 million to US$ 12 million in 2007 due to unavoidable events associated with withdrawing its e-wallet services to the US online gambling market.</font> Other 2007 non-cash write downs associated with US withdrawal are expected to total between approximately US$ 18 million and US$ 20 million, related to impairment of assets including website development, leasehold improvements, redundant servers and unamortized portion of licenses and trademarks.

The Company took an impairment charge in the fourth quarter of 2006 related to the carrying amount of its goodwill and intangible assets. Based upon the impairment analysis, a charge of $11.7 million (approximately 9.7 pence per share) was recorded for the impairment of goodwill and intangible assets, measured as the amount that the carrying value exceeded the estimated fair value.


<font color="Blue"> Other highlights </font>

NETELLER has continued to make progress diversifying its products for customers and merchants in the fourth quarter, with launches of its localised language services in Sweden, Denmark, Turkey and Poland. This has helped contribute to an increasing number of active customers from European countries. The "Refer-a-Friend" referral program is continuing to drive non-US customer sign ups.

The Company has also recently rolled out a service on its platform which allows merchants to maintain country black-lists to block any money transfers from customers in those countries. A number of online gambling merchants are already using this feature to block transfers from US residents in the light of the Act.

Despite the challenges to the business after the passing of the Act, NETELLER and its employees remain focused on the opportunities ahead. The Group has recently received several awards - the Contact Centre Employer of Choice (R) award from the CCEOC Institute recognising our Calgary-based contact centre as one of the best operations to work for in North America; and the JD Power &amp; Associates Call Center Certification designation, acknowledging the quality and experience of the Group's contact centre and its staff.

The Company has recently launched a new version of its corporate website at www.netellergroup.com (http://www.netellergroup.com) to provide further information on the Group and its activities, while distinguishing from the customer facing website
www.neteller.com. (http://www.neteller.com.)


<font color="Blue"> Further communication </font>

<font color="Red">[b]In the light of recent events, the Company has cancelled the conference call previously scheduled for 3pm GMT later today. The Company currently intends to release its preliminary announcement of results for the 12 months ended 31 December 2006 towards the end of February 2007. The Company will provide further updates in due course.[b]</font>

[thetruest]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Let's keep the political commentary to more appropriate forums please.

[/ QUOTE ]


OK, so I actually decide to get a little sleep, and this thread turns upside down.... time to get back on track...

[/ QUOTE ]

yes, 2 posts have flipped over a 100+ post thread... Danger, Will Robinson

[Sniper]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Let's keep the political commentary to more appropriate forums please.

[/ QUOTE ]


OK, so I actually decide to get a little sleep, and this thread turns upside down.... time to get back on track...

[/ QUOTE ]

yes, 2 posts have flipped over a 100+ post thread... Danger, Will Robinson

[/ QUOTE ]

Take your trolling somewhere else please...

[poker_n00b]

Are europeans affected by this?

[Billman]

[ QUOTE ]
Are europeans affected by this?

[/ QUOTE ]

Not in any significant way other than the sites they like to play against Americans on will likely have fewer Americans to play with.

[poker_n00b]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Are europeans affected by this?

[/ QUOTE ]

Not in any significant way other than the sites they like to play against Americans on will likely have fewer Americans to play with.

[/ QUOTE ]

thanks. good news.

[DWarrior]

[ QUOTE ]
Hi all,

Just had a chat with Neteller, and wanted to share. Dont know if anyone is in my situation, so take it for what its worth.

My situation is I had deposited $5000 on Sunday, the money is no longer in my bank account but the EFT is still pending. No sweat, this usually takes a week, but wanted to check whether there would be a problem....last answer is not encouraging.

Marcella: Hello.
xxx: Hello Marcella
Marcella: We are experiencing some major delays right now.
xxx: OK, Im talking about the transaction I made on Sunday where the money has already left my bank account.
xxx: Will that $5,000 still appear in my Neteller account in a reasonable timeframe given the money has left my account? Understand that there are delays around withdrawals right now.
xxx: Are you still there?
Marcella: Sorry, I cannot say when the funds will reach your NETeller account. We are trying our best to get some answers.
xxx: Where is the money then? Because the funds have already left my bank account. Is there any way to reverse the transaction?
Marcella: Unfortunately we cannot reverse right now. We are wiating for updates.
xxxx: Wow. OK, so I just dont have my $5000 then, that's unfortunate.
xxxxx: Is the problem that third-party processors will not do business with Neteller right now or is there a liquidity issue?
Marcella: You can view any updates at http://updates.neteller.com.
xxxxx: Yeah, Ive read that, none of that helps answer my question. Frustrating, I know you guys are in a tough spot here, but frustrating on my end since the money is out of my account and is apparantly going to disapper into the ether.
Marcella: We don't know what is going to happen at this point. We are waiting for updates.
xxxxx: Can you assure me I will be paid in full?
Marcella: I cannot make any promises.

[/ QUOTE ]

Sounds like a 24-tabler.

[ADBjester]

[ QUOTE ]
If you have a debit card and the amount is a few grand or less load to the debit card and take out $1K each day. This is much better idea then trying to EFT out of Neteller right now.

[/ QUOTE ]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Omni_Bank_(California)

Is this the same Omni Bank that issues the NETeller debit cards?

Jester

[Zetack]

[ QUOTE ]
<font color="Blue"> TRADING UPDATE </font>


NETELLER Plc (LSE: NLR), the leading independent online money transfer business, today issued the following update regarding its position in the US market in the light of the Unlawful Internet Gaming Enforcement Act of 2006 (the "Act" or "UIGEA") and the Act's associated anticipated regulations.

<font color="blue"> US market withdrawal </font>

-Withdrawal of US Transfers to Gambling Merchants: The Board confirms that the Group will cease processing online transactions related to gambling for the US market with effect from today <font color="Red">in light of the passing of the UIGEA and the uncertainties and likely delays relating to the drafting and implementing of regulations.</font>


[/ QUOTE ]

Well, so much for Netteller. I have no use for it now. The good news is that's finally spurring me to set up an interest bearing account for the bulk of my bankroll that's not in regular play.

[catcher193]

god freaking dangit

[Mental]

"god freaking dangit"

This freaking United States of America is out of control.

[LetsGambool]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Hi all,

Just had a chat with Neteller, and wanted to share. Dont know if anyone is in my situation, so take it for what its worth.

My situation is I had deposited $5000 on Sunday, the money is no longer in my bank account but the EFT is still pending. No sweat, this usually takes a week, but wanted to check whether there would be a problem....last answer is not encouraging.

Marcella: Hello.
xxx: Hello Marcella
Marcella: We are experiencing some major delays right now.
xxx: OK, Im talking about the transaction I made on Sunday where the money has already left my bank account.
xxx: Will that $5,000 still appear in my Neteller account in a reasonable timeframe given the money has left my account? Understand that there are delays around withdrawals right now.
xxx: Are you still there?
Marcella: Sorry, I cannot say when the funds will reach your NETeller account. We are trying our best to get some answers.
xxx: Where is the money then? Because the funds have already left my bank account. Is there any way to reverse the transaction?
Marcella: Unfortunately we cannot reverse right now. We are wiating for updates.
xxxx: Wow. OK, so I just dont have my $5000 then, that's unfortunate.
xxxxx: Is the problem that third-party processors will not do business with Neteller right now or is there a liquidity issue?
Marcella: You can view any updates at http://updates.neteller.com.
xxxxx: Yeah, Ive read that, none of that helps answer my question. Frustrating, I know you guys are in a tough spot here, but frustrating on my end since the money is out of my account and is apparantly going to disapper into the ether.
Marcella: We don't know what is going to happen at this point. We are waiting for updates.
xxxxx: Can you assure me I will be paid in full?
Marcella: I cannot make any promises.

[/ QUOTE ]

Sounds like a 24-tabler.

[/ QUOTE ]

Nah, Mid-level recreational player. You definitely dont want me losing access to that cash /images/graemlins/tongue.gif

[bb88]

Talked to VIP services again and they confirmed it WILL be 2 weeks for an EFT, 6-8 weeks for a paper check.

He recommended I use my Neteller card to withdraw, I have a Neteller balance of about $3500 so that's what I'm going to do.

$1000 limit per day from Neteller to card
$1200 limit per day from ATM machine per card
3 ATM withdraws per card per day
$1.50 fee per withdraw (from card issuer)+whatever fee the machine charges
$2 fee per withdraw.

So I paid $5 to withdraw $1000, it could be worse. I have the $1000 cash in my hand right now, so I'm not too worried about Neteller screwing me for the other $2500.

[Suerte]

this is horrible

[LetsGambool]

Just as an FYI, I spoke to someone else at Neteller just now who told me that my EFT deposit to Neteller should still clear in the normal time period. Not sure if anyone is in the same boat, but given the chat conversation I posted last night, wanted to give an update.

[Crosby]

I'm one of the people who fired off EFT transfers before this went down, but the transfers say accepted and the money isn't pending or available in my other bank account. When I called them, I was told since I started the transfers on the 16th, they would be available in a couple days. Is this definitely BS and it will be 2 weeks? Also, my understanding is that the reason for the delay is their third party processor for EFTs (which is what the rep told me on the phone after I asked about it, but she said that wouldn't apply to me based on when I started the transfers). If that's the case, does anyone have any information on precisely why there would be such a delay? I would be less concerned if Neteller had given different people consistent answers, or if I understood precisely what I'm dealing with with this 3rd party delay in terms of risk. It's awkward for so much money to not be shown as existing anywhere. Any thoughts?

[Sniper]

[ QUOTE ]
When I called them, I was told since I started the transfers on the 16th, they would be available in a couple days. Is this definitely BS and it will be 2 weeks?

[/ QUOTE ]

You called... you got an answer...

You know wait a couple of days to see what happens... then call again and follow up, if the money still hasn't arrived... at which point, they may tell you 2 weeks... but they might tell you something else...

No real use speculating...

[Sniper]

[ QUOTE ]
-As noted above, today's withdrawal from the US market by NETELLER is the culmination of months of careful planning. Along with this action, the Group is actively assessing what further steps it may take in light of the two arrests made earlier this week to clarify the Company's position in this matter.

-Pending further clarification of this the shares of the Company will remain suspended.

[/ QUOTE ]

I just want to highlight this a bit more...

Basically, they have made a statement... which means the news should be properly diseminated... yet they continue to keep their tradable shares suspended... this means (to me) that there is likely additional &amp; material news...

[Crosby]

Fair, I was just hoping to compare responses with other people who EFTed on the same date. Seemed like they were giving radically different responses. Also interested in more details on their EFT third party if anyone happened to have it.

I respect what you're saying about speculation, though, thanks.

[headturner1]

[ QUOTE ]
I'm one of the people who fired off EFT transfers before this went down, but the transfers say accepted and the money isn't pending or available in my other bank account. When I called them, I was told since I started the transfers on the 16th, they would be available in a couple days. Is this definitely BS and it will be 2 weeks? Also, my understanding is that the reason for the delay is their third party processor for EFTs (which is what the rep told me on the phone after I asked about it, but she said that wouldn't apply to me based on when I started the transfers). If that's the case, does anyone have any information on precisely why there would be such a delay? I would be less concerned if Neteller had given different people consistent answers, or if I understood precisely what I'm dealing with with this 3rd party delay in terms of risk. It's awkward for so much money to not be shown as existing anywhere. Any thoughts?

[/ QUOTE ]

I started mine on Jan. 13th and I still have yet to receive the money to my checking account. It said that it was accepted on Jan. 16th and my NT account balance has been zero since that date. Money into the ether. /images/graemlins/crazy.gif

[Sniper]

[ QUOTE ]
Fair, I was just hoping to compare responses with other people who EFTed on the same date. Seemed like they were giving radically different responses. Also interested in more details on their EFT third party if anyone happened to have it.

I respect what you're saying about speculation, though, thanks.

[/ QUOTE ]

My understanding is the 3rd party processors they are having trouble with are those listed in the complaint against the founders, but it may be more complex than that. The DOJ basically went after their weakest link...

[Jooka]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I'm one of the people who fired off EFT transfers before this went down, but the transfers say accepted and the money isn't pending or available in my other bank account. When I called them, I was told since I started the transfers on the 16th, they would be available in a couple days. Is this definitely BS and it will be 2 weeks? Also, my understanding is that the reason for the delay is their third party processor for EFTs (which is what the rep told me on the phone after I asked about it, but she said that wouldn't apply to me based on when I started the transfers). If that's the case, does anyone have any information on precisely why there would be such a delay? I would be less concerned if Neteller had given different people consistent answers, or if I understood precisely what I'm dealing with with this 3rd party delay in terms of risk. It's awkward for so much money to not be shown as existing anywhere. Any thoughts?

[/ QUOTE ]

I started mine on Jan. 13th and I still have yet to receive the money to my checking account. It said that it was accepted on Jan. 16th and my NT account balance has been zero since that date. Money into the ether. /images/graemlins/crazy.gif

[/ QUOTE ]


started mine on the 9th, was told 2 more days this morning.

[headturner1]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I'm one of the people who fired off EFT transfers before this went down, but the transfers say accepted and the money isn't pending or available in my other bank account. When I called them, I was told since I started the transfers on the 16th, they would be available in a couple days. Is this definitely BS and it will be 2 weeks? Also, my understanding is that the reason for the delay is their third party processor for EFTs (which is what the rep told me on the phone after I asked about it, but she said that wouldn't apply to me based on when I started the transfers). If that's the case, does anyone have any information on precisely why there would be such a delay? I would be less concerned if Neteller had given different people consistent answers, or if I understood precisely what I'm dealing with with this 3rd party delay in terms of risk. It's awkward for so much money to not be shown as existing anywhere. Any thoughts?

[/ QUOTE ]

I started mine on Jan. 13th and I still have yet to receive the money to my checking account. It said that it was accepted on Jan. 16th and my NT account balance has been zero since that date. Money into the ether. /images/graemlins/crazy.gif

[/ QUOTE ]


started mine on the 9th, was told 2 more days this morning.

[/ QUOTE ]

so, i guess i can stop checking my bank account like every 45 seconds! /images/graemlins/shocked.gif

[D-FENS]

[ QUOTE ]
started mine on the 9th, was told 2 more days this morning.

[/ QUOTE ]

Holy crap, the 9th? I did a withdrawal on Jan 7th and had the money on Jan 9th.

I then made a deposit on Sunday, Jan 13th. The money left my bank account on Tuesday and my Neteller account still shows "pending."

After I heard about the arrest on the 16th, I withdrew all my available money. It still says "pending."

Awesome.

[Sniper]

My opinion at this point... sit tight and let things shake out... If money is going to get stuck somewhere, better it be in your Neteller account or in your poker account, than "in transit" thru some unknown processing scheme!

Play with any money you have on the sites already... and let's see how things look next week...

The sky is not falling... but there is way too much money being moved around now, during a period of uncertainty...

Just my opinion... Sit back, relax, catch up on your 2+2 reading now that the server seems to be in better health...

[Jooka]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
started mine on the 9th, was told 2 more days this morning.

[/ QUOTE ]

Holy crap, the 9th? I did a withdrawal on Jan 7th and had the money on Jan 9th.

I then made a deposit on Sunday, Jan 13th. The money left my bank account on Tuesday and my Neteller account still shows "pending."

After I heard about the arrest on the 16th, I withdrew all my available money. It still says "pending."

Awesome.

[/ QUOTE ]


the person I talked with this morning said on the 9th and 10th whatever agency(some govt thing) the money goes through glitched all eft's on those days and they had to start over. Not sure I buy it but like sniper syays just got to sit back and wait now.


[ QUOTE ]
If money is going to get stuck somewhere, better it be in your Neteller account or in your poker account, than "in transit" thru some unknown processing scheme!

[/ QUOTE ]

thats exactly where most peoples money is at this point, not in neteller and not in our bank/poker site. at least the ones we are talking about here.

[headturner1]

[ QUOTE ]
My opinion at this point... sit tight and let things shake out... If money is going to get stuck somewhere, better it be in your Neteller account or in your poker account, than "in transit" thru some unknown processing scheme!



[/ QUOTE ]

for many people, myself included, this seems to be a little late. I can't begin to imagine how many people have already tried to pull everything out.

[Crosby]

Additionally, based on my and other people's experiences it would seem to make sense to advise anyone who has a pending transaction to cancel it and leave the $/debit card it out instead.

[xx44]

Not to start a panic, but don't think your money is a 100% safe if it is sitting in neteller. Even though they have a good reputation, and is publicly traded, they still can declare bankruptcy. IF this happens, your money may or may not be tied up. Worse case, you will have to file a claim proving you had money there. In no way am I saying this will happen, but it is definitely a possibility.

[Sniper]

[ QUOTE ]
Not to start a panic, but don't think your money is a 100% safe if it is sitting in neteller. Even though they have a good reputation, and is publicly traded, they still can declare bankruptcy. IF this happens, your money may or may not be tied up. Worse case, you will have to file a claim proving you had money there. In no way am I saying this will happen, but it is definitely a possibility.

[/ QUOTE ]

Funds are in segregated accounts... Neteller made alot of money last year... they aren't about to declare bankruptcy...

[Sniper]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
My opinion at this point... sit tight and let things shake out... If money is going to get stuck somewhere, better it be in your Neteller account or in your poker account, than "in transit" thru some unknown processing scheme!



[/ QUOTE ]

for many people, myself included, this seems to be a little late. I can't begin to imagine how many people have already tried to pull everything out.

[/ QUOTE ]

The corollary would be, if you have money "in transit"... relax and let things work thru the system. Follow up on whatever timeframes you were given by support, but they are overwhelmed, so don't pester them every day.