50NL 6Max - Flush on Paired Board

[redCashion]

No reads, opponent doesn't seem to be a donk.

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, $0.50 BB (5 handed) internettexasholdem.com (http://www.internettexasholdem.com)

MP ($37.95)
Button ($51.05)
SB ($74.20)
Hero ($38.30)
UTG ($37.55)

Preflop: Hero is BB with 9/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, T/images/graemlins/diamond.gif.
UTG calls $0.50, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, Button calls $0.50, SB completes, Hero checks.

Flop: ($2) K/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, 4/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, K/images/graemlins/club.gif <font color="#0000FF">(4 players)</font>
SB checks, <font color="#CC3333">Hero bets $1.5</font>, UTG folds, <font color="#CC3333">Button raises to $5</font>, SB folds, Hero calls $3.50.

Turn: ($12) 3/images/graemlins/diamond.gif <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
Hero checks, <font color="#CC3333">Button bets $9</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Hero?

[thac]

I would probably fold flop since you don't have the nut flush draw, but as played I either shove or fold here depending on player.

[redCashion]

My feeling at the time was that he wasn't betting a draw on the flop, but a made hand. So my only question was whether it was trips or a full house. Of course, I was hoping for trips.

People have been in the habit of flopping full houses on me lately, and so just want to confirm that you can still play a flush on a paired board /images/graemlins/smile.gif I think my perception of paired boards is temporarily warped.

[uminchu]

yeah paired boards suck but i think Kx which is not a four or a three is much more likely here and he will pay you off with his trips so OPEN SHOVE over villains bet

[redCashion]

Open shove on turn? I did shove, but only after the $9 bet.

[eigenvalue]

I made some bad experiences with flushs vs FHs, too and I play paired boards with caution if I have a flush draw.
I'm sure, Your call of his reraise on the flop is an error. You don't have the implied pot odds to do so on a paired board with a weak flush draw.

But You called and hit Your flush. Why did You call the reraise on the flop, if You now consider folding after Your flush hits? You can't do that. Given the betting sequence, it looks like he didn't have a FH on the flop. So it's by far more likely that You are ahead and he has 10 outs with his trip K's. You have to reraise all-in here and trust the maths, which will work in Your favor in the long run.

Best regards


eigenvalue

[barryc83]

CR Arrrrrrrrrr iiiiiiiiiiiiinnn. B/c most 50nl players in my experience think trips=the nuts.

[kazana]

A c/rai here would just scream flush.
If villain has more than 2 brain cells (I'm not saying this is always the case, hehe) he'll fold just about all worse hands (including trip kings) and call with a boat. Unless, of course, hero has been VERY tricky/bluffy so far.

I'd rather call him down to get some more value out of tripped kings if the river bricks.

[ATrain]

I don't know if a cr all-in always looks like a flush. It could also look like trip kings to villain. Also, OP doesn't have a full stack, so he would only be pushing around $23 into a $30 pot.

My question: why is Kx more likely for villain than a FH?

[barryc83]

I don't like this at all. What if another diamond comes off on river? That would kill your action. He's not folding trip kings here very much at all. He bet 3/4 pot on the turn...he obviously likes his hand. Now it's time to take his stack. Also, on the flop a lot of villains will slowplay a flopped boat not raise the flop. I think you're seeing trips way more than a boat here.

[kazana]

[ QUOTE ]
I don't know if a cr all-in always looks like a flush. It could also look like trip kings to villain. Also, OP doesn't have a full stack, so he would only be pushing around $23 into a $30 pot.

My question: why is Kx more likely for villain than a FH?

[/ QUOTE ]
c/r ai with trip kings would be the dumbest possible move with that hand at this level. You always get called by better hands (no, flushes won't fold at 50NL) and make all worse hands insta-fold.

So, a c/r ai looks like exactly three possibilities:
1) flush
2) boat
3) bluff
And I highly doubt you'll be put on a bluff often enough to make this a good move.

As for the likelyhood of Kx vs boat: There are a lot more combinations of Kx than 44 or K4. AK, KQ, KJ, KT, and suited Kings are possible, depending on villain's perception of playable hands. Furthermore, any medium/high pocket pair could play the hand exactly the way it has been played so far.

[kazana]

[ QUOTE ]
I don't like this at all. What if another diamond comes off on river? That would kill your action. He's not folding trip kings here very much at all. He bet 3/4 pot on the turn...he obviously likes his hand. Now it's time to take his stack. Also, on the flop a lot of villains will slowplay a flopped boat not raise the flop. I think you're seeing trips way more than a boat here.

[/ QUOTE ]
I still believe a halfway intelligent player would fold trip kings to a push. But you may disagree on that.
Either way, other hands that will fold are medium to high pocketpairs, and those just might give you another part of their stack on a river value bet.

And yes, another diamond will kill your action. Even worse, it could put villain in front. But that's only about a 6-8% possibility. I'm willing to risk that for the chance of grabbing another part of his stack.

[barryc83]

I understand what you're saying but you're giving the average 50nl villain way way too much credit here. You want to be allin here right? I know I do. So if you just call the turn what are you doing on the river: 1) if a diamond hits? 2) if the board pairs? 3) if anything else hits.

1) ???this situation sucks
2) fold
3) go for c/r ai or lead?

If you're gonna fold when you flush hits just fold to his raise on the flop.

[kazana]

Roughly:
1) valuebet (~$15)/call a push
2) check/fold
3) valuebet (~$15)/call a push

If he sucked out on the river, shrug it off and win next time.
If he had you beat all along, tough luck, at least you know you tried to get the max out of the situations you were ahead.

[barryc83]

So your argument for not crai on turn is that he will fold? Maybe we have different experiences but I play at PS and I think 15%&gt; of villains fold trip kings to turn crai. Like I said before, if another diamond hits you will lose value on river unless he has a higher diamond than you. He likes his hand on the turn, just get it in then.

[munkey]

Since we don't know where we stand and a raise will commit us and more chips why not just check/call down.

Benefits are that a player with trip kings may think you've got Kxx too and are also scared of the flush. Disadvantages are we extract less value for our 'risky' move in drawing potentially dead and still have to put in ~60% of our stack if he vbets the river 1/2.

I fold to the flop raise ( unless I put him 80%+ on trip kings) because if we call to hit our flush trip kings we have to get all our chips in if we believe we're ahead. As eigen vlaue says your implied odds are bad -
1. you draw when hits is obvious
2. it's non-nut he could hold a flush too or AK with Ad
3. He/she has redraws, 10 outs to a boat on turn(I think)

As others have said if we aren't willing to go for a big pot potentially drawing dead then we should have folded on the flop.

[shirze]

without looking at what anyone else wrote, i'd say to call. it's just too likely that he's just got a king and feels too deep in to fold on the river.

[kazana]

[ QUOTE ]
So your argument for not crai on turn is that he will fold? Maybe we have different experiences but I play at PS and I think 15%&gt; of villains fold trip kings to turn crai. Like I said before, if another diamond hits you will lose value on river unless he has a higher diamond than you. He likes his hand on the turn, just get it in then.

[/ QUOTE ]
Yeah, this is exactly where we disagree. OP said that villain is not donkish, so I expect him to fold trip kings the vast majority of the time to a turn push.
I think we can agree that he won't fold a higher flush or a boat.
If you are sure he will call a turn push more often than not, then pushing probably is the way to go. Just keep in mind that you won't get another cent out of medium to higher pocket pairs. Those might call a smallish river value bet.

[orange]

Fold the flop. Drawing to flushes on paired boards is generally not very good.

Villan folds trip Kings here never. I would probably c/r ai on the turn. Leading the turn is also an option.

[kazana]

[ QUOTE ]
Fold the flop. Drawing to flushes on paired boards is generally not very good.

Villan folds trip Kings here never. I would probably c/r ai on the turn. Leading the turn is also an option.

[/ QUOTE ]
The more I think about it, the more I dislike a c/rai here.
Even if I knew he'd call with trip kings (which I still doubt, but anyway).

If we're getting it in anyway, why not let other pairs/draws hop along for extra profit? I see, a diamond would really suck, but the chances of another one falling is slim, even moreso if villain holds one.