Heaven would be Broke.

[Carded]

Countless time I have heard the question or one similar to, “ Why can’t good or mostly good people live in heaven?”

First it is important to consider the nature of heaven. Heaven is where God makes his home. Heaven is a place of holiness, righteousness, no evil exists or sorrow, a place of perfection.

Perfection cannot have imperfection in it or it is not perfection at all. Neither can heaven being a perfect place have only a good person in it and still be heaven, a perfect place. Perfection does not house imperfection. A person must be completely perfect to enter heaven or heaven would lose the quality (perfection) that makes it heaven. Heaven wouldn’t be Heaven anymore

[madnak]

Yeah, okay. How about we change the question to "why can't good or mostly good people have eternal happiness?"

[CityFan]

define "good"

[FortunaMaximus]

Perfection is being without flaw.

A perfect Heaven would have flaws to pick at and multiple issues to go to war over.

Good? People who hold to moral standards as the Ten Commandents lay them out to be, and can justify breaking them with a practical, inviolable argument.

[hmkpoker]

Great, so why can't God arbitrarily purify anyone like he arbitrarily purifies Christians?

[alphatmw]

i think it's safe to assume that OP will never post in this thread again.

[brashbrother]

[ QUOTE ]
Great, so why can't God arbitrarily purify anyone like he arbitrarily purifies Christians?

[/ QUOTE ]

Who says he can't?

[madnak]

Carded suggests that such people are impure and therefore can't enter heaven. If God can purify everyone, then everyone can enter heaven. Carded's argument is therefore invalidated. Only if God chooses not to allow people into heaven will they not be allowed in. The dilemma stands.

[Carded]

Interesting comments.

Like a previous poster rightly

[Carded]

Interesting comments.

Like a previous poster rightly concluded heaven is in fact at war with imperfection. That war is currently waged here on earth. The conflict will only end when imperfection is removed. This leads to the necessity of hell to have peace in heaven. The war is waged until all imperfection is bound up and cast into outer darkness (hell).

So to the poster who asks, “why can’t mostly good people have eternal happiness? Mostly, good isn’t perfect. If you don’t meet the perfect standard for heaven and kingdom of God there is only one place left for you to go outer darkness.

As Madnak points out in his own way God cannot purify everyone, “If God can purify everyone, and then everyone can enter heaven. Carded's argument is therefore invalidated. Only if God chooses not to allow people into heaven will they not be allowed in. The dilemma stands.”

God cannot purify everyone nor can he arbitrarily purify anyone, which leads to the requirement of a person choosing purification.

[vhawk01]

Uhhh...God can do anything. He can even heal amputees. Are you sure you aren't talking about Chuck Norris?

[FortunaMaximus]

[ QUOTE ]
Uhhh...God can do anything. He can even heal amputees. Are you sure you aren't talking about Chuck Norris?

[/ QUOTE ]

<chuckles> If Antonius grew a beard, it'd be no match for Norris. /images/graemlins/tongue.gif

[revots33]

[ QUOTE ]
A person must be completely perfect to enter heaven

[/ QUOTE ]

God must be getting pretty lonely up there

[madnak]

[ QUOTE ]
If you don’t meet the perfect standard for heaven and kingdom of God there is only one place left for you to go outer darkness.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yeah. Making more than two places would tire God out way too much.

[51cards]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
If you don’t meet the perfect standard for heaven and kingdom of God there is only one place left for you to go outer darkness.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yeah. Making more than two places would tire God out way too much.

[/ QUOTE ]

I know, it like took him 6 days to make this place. Geez, how much trouble does this guy have to go to. Another place for good people? Bah, send 'em to Hell.

[FortunaMaximus]

I like his subtlety, tossing a curveball at Terra every once in awhile. But, yeah.

[Carded]

Vhawk01, God cannot do everything. God cannot do something that would violate his on perfect nature. God cannot do something that would make himself imperfect. If God did something that was imperfect he wouldn’t be God.

Madnak, you misunderstand. There is perfection and what is not perfection. No third state is possible, either you are perfect or you are not. Either you will be placed with what is imperfect or you will be group with what is perfect. All that is imperfect will be removed from what is perfect.

[madnak]

Well, some people on earth seem pretty happy. Are they perfect or are you wrong?

[chezlaw]

[ QUOTE ]
No third state is possible, either you are perfect or you are not. Either you will be placed with what is imperfect or you will be group with what is perfect. All that is imperfect will be removed from what is perfect.


[/ QUOTE ]
This claim is imperfect. It will be removed.

chez

[Carded]

Madnak. Happiness is a feeling. A person is considered sadistic is they experience the feeling of happiness while inflicting pain on another person. Feelings are not determinate of what is right or wrong, or perfect of imperfect.

[jogsxyz]

What about the servants? Will they be commuting from hell?

[BPA234]

..."n". Obv.

[vhawk01]

[ QUOTE ]
Vhawk01, God cannot do everything. God cannot do something that would violate his on perfect nature. God cannot do something that would make himself imperfect. If God did something that was imperfect he wouldn’t be God.

Madnak, you misunderstand. There is perfection and what is not perfection. No third state is possible, either you are perfect or you are not. Either you will be placed with what is imperfect or you will be group with what is perfect. All that is imperfect will be removed from what is perfect.

[/ QUOTE ]

You seem to think god can purify some but not all. If thats the case I dont see how its logically impossible for god to purify all...it just seems like laziness. ARE YOU CALLING GOD A BUM!??!?

[Carded]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Vhawk01, God cannot do everything. God cannot do something that would violate his on perfect nature. God cannot do something that would make himself imperfect. If God did something that was imperfect he wouldn’t be God.

Madnak, you misunderstand. There is perfection and what is not perfection. No third state is possible, either you are perfect or you are not. Either you will be placed with what is imperfect or you will be group with what is perfect. All that is imperfect will be removed from what is perfect.

[/ QUOTE ]

You seem to think god can purify some but not all. If thats the case I dont see how its logically impossible for god to purify all...it just seems like laziness. ARE YOU CALLING GOD A BUM!??!?

[/ QUOTE ]

I already pointed out a person must choose purification for God to be able to purify him/her. God cannot purify those who do not allow it. God is in no way lazy, everyone who is willing to accept purification will recieve it.

[revots33]

[ QUOTE ]
God cannot do something that would violate his on perfect nature. God cannot do something that would make himself imperfect. If God did something that was imperfect he wouldn’t be God.

[/ QUOTE ]

What about god making humans profoundly retarded, or braindead, or insane, or missing some piece of genetic code required to process sugars, or with non-functioning immune systems, or miscarriages, etc., etc...??

Seems to me god has some kinks to work out in his creations before he can call himself perfect.

[madnak]

[ QUOTE ]
Madnak. Happiness is a feeling. A person is considered sadistic is they experience the feeling of happiness while inflicting pain on another person. Feelings are not determinate of what is right or wrong, or perfect of imperfect.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yeah, happiness and perfection have absolutely nothing to do with one another. In a perfect world, probably everyone would experience unimaginable torture. Can't argue with that.

The only slight problem is that personally, I don't like it when people are horribly tortured.

But hey, if God says torture=goodness, who am I to argue, huh?

[MidGe]

[ QUOTE ]
God cannot purify those who do not allow it.

[/ QUOTE ]


He is a wuss of a god!

[51cards]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
God cannot purify those who do not allow it.

[/ QUOTE ]


He is a wuss of a god!

[/ QUOTE ]

He is totally wussy if he needs my permission to purify me. Do your children give you permission to diaper and clean them?

Whoaa, thats a really good analogy. Think about it. You're saying I (like an infant) need purified (diaper changed) and if I don't give God (parent) permission he won't do it.

Sicko. Total sicko.

And, if you havn't run off yet, can you tell us who laid down this rule about needing our permission? God seems to 'want' to but can't without our permission. Saying it's just his nature doesn't solve anything. Who made God that way, and why can't he change that about himself? If you say God is unchanging (also by nature) why did he make himself that way if he'd 'rather' be able to save us?

I think we've reduced this to the "can't know God" point.

Which is why it's silly to go around claiming to know anything about her.

[Stu Pidasso]

[ QUOTE ]
Perfection cannot have imperfection in it or it is not perfection at all. Neither can heaven being a perfect place have only a good person in it and still be heaven, a perfect place. Perfection does not house imperfection. A person must be completely perfect to enter heaven or heaven would lose the quality (perfection) that makes it heaven. Heaven wouldn’t be Heaven anymore

[/ QUOTE ]

Sounds like there needs to be a place for souls to go to be purified after their bodies die. Once the souls are purified and made perfect, then they can enter heaven. A place like that needs a name. Lets call it Purgatory (http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/purgatory) .

Stu

[FortunaMaximus]

Brilliant idea!

[Carded]

Your premise is false. God's creation was perfect. Humans choosing to bring sin into the world results in what we now experience.

[FortunaMaximus]

So perfect he got bored and decided to shake up the Boggle box?

I don't get why some of you theists place so much value on perfection. Your version of heaven sounds like an assembly line. Two perfect eggs, perfect orange juice, perfect toast.

Think of all those unborn chickens, the fact that you harm the tree by plucking the orange, how the wheat feels when you chop it with a thresher...

Oh, the horror!

[Carded]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
God cannot purify those who do not allow it.

[/ QUOTE ]


He is a wuss of a god!

[/ QUOTE ]

He is totally wussy if he needs my permission to purify me. Do your children give you permission to diaper and clean them?

Whoaa, thats a really good analogy. Think about it. You're saying I (like an infant) need purified (diaper changed) and if I don't give God (parent) permission he won't do it.

Sicko. Total sicko.



[/ QUOTE ]

Your response is the classic Straw-man Fallacy. First you create a false representation of my statements. Then you proceed to demolish your own false statements.

You are not an infant. You are old enough to make choices for yourself.

You were given freedom to make certain choices. Part of being human is the ability to make the choice for or against purification. Take away that choice and your not human anymore.

[51cards]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
God cannot purify those who do not allow it.

[/ QUOTE ]


He is a wuss of a god!

[/ QUOTE ]

He is totally wussy if he needs my permission to purify me. Do your children give you permission to diaper and clean them?

Whoaa, thats a really good analogy. Think about it. You're saying I (like an infant) need purified (diaper changed) and if I don't give God (parent) permission he won't do it.

Sicko. Total sicko.



[/ QUOTE ]

Your response is the classic Straw-man Fallacy. First you create a false representation of my statements. Then you proceed to demolish your own false statements.

You are not an infant. You are old enough to make choices for yourself.

You were given freedom to make certain choices.

[/ QUOTE ]

Erm, yeah. So like I said it's an analogy. I really don't know (like the infant) that I need saved. Telling me, and my parents did for 20 years, hasn't convinced me. Telling the infant to sit still isn't going to work either. You need to do what's best for him by force.

[ QUOTE ]

Part of being human is the ability to make the choice for or against purification. Take away that choice and your not human anymore.


[/ QUOTE ]

Infant =/= human? /images/graemlins/frown.gif

[Hopey]

So, can we assume that you will be going to heaven? Are you perfect in the eyes of your lord?

[vhawk01]

[ QUOTE ]
Your premise is false. God's creation was perfect. Humans choosing to bring sin into the world results in what we now experience.

[/ QUOTE ]

But God lives in my heart, and I am obviously imperfect. He must live across the street from all the imperfections in my heart.

[kurto]

[ QUOTE ]
Your premise is false. God's creation was perfect. Humans choosing to bring sin into the world results in what we now experience.

[/ QUOTE ]

God creation was clearly imperfect. And I'd say he's also clearly a sadist.

He created humans with their flaws. He knew before he created Adam and Eve that they would defy him (yet he still got angry? God is apparently also schizoid). He knows before he creates a being he has mapped out their lives in his book... yet allows them to suffer eternal torment.

He and his creation sound pretty far from perfect. I would say it sound outright ridiculous and unlikely.

[malorum]

[ QUOTE ]
Great, so why can't God arbitrarily purify anyone like he arbitrarily purifies Christians?

[/ QUOTE ]

Sigh.... because we need hell fodder so The saints can rejoice in seeing God's justice done when they watch the sinners burn. This opportunity is part of what makes heaven so perfect.
You should read St. Thomas Aquinas he explains it all.

[malorum]

Oh yes I forgot to mention it's not Gloating when we watch the Hell fodder burn. It's more like relief

[ QUOTE ]
they are useful, because the elect rejoice therein, when they see God's justice in them, and realize that they have escaped them.

[/ QUOTE ]

[CORed]

The Christian vision of the afterlife has always struck me as a choice between eternal torment and eternal boredom. I'm honestly not sure which would be worse.