Vegetarianism? Pros and Cons

[Speedlimits]

I'd first like to say that I currently eat meat,fish, everything that I like. I am interested in hearing people's views on going vegetarian and what kind of food vegans/vegetarians eat in place of meat/fish. Also the reason I have not gone vegetarian/vegan is because I feel like it would not make a difference and that the animals that are being slaughtered would be killed anyways.

Is this flawed thinking?

[guesswest]

It's definitely flawed thinking. It's not so much that the animals wouldn't be killed, more that they wouldn't exist in the first place - they're bred for meat. That's not to say eating meat is unethical, it's a much more complicated question than that, but thinking that it 'wouldn't make a difference' is not a good reason at all if you do think it is unethical.

As far as what you'd eat goes - just whatever. I often say, as a vegetarian, when people ask me about this - that if you imagined not eating meat for one day it'd be a trivially easy thing to do. You just do that - then do it again the next day, it's way easier than you'd imagine.

[valenzuela]

I just love meat way too much to leave it, but I do try to eat less meat.
I dont mind about fish, I dont think fish suffer that much anyway.
Btw my problem is not the actual killing but the way the animals are treated their whole life in which they basically cant move.

also i think this is in the wrong forum, this should go in OOT.

[valenzuela]

thats flawed thinking guesswest.
Well not having any sexual act isnt bad, just think of it as one day you dont have any sexual act, and so on.

Or an even better example( because you could say that we are not free from restraining from having sex) should be to not see the person you love the most, just think of one day without seeing her...etc,etc.

[vhawk01]

[ QUOTE ]
thats flawed thinking guesswest.
Well not having any sexual act isnt bad, just think of it as one day you dont have any sexual act, and so on.

Or an even better example( because you could say that we are not free from restraining from having sex) should be to not see the person you love the most, just think of one day without seeing her...etc,etc.

[/ QUOTE ]

I dont think he is claiming its some universally applicable policy. He's just saying its a practical solution to assuaging fears that giving up meat 'cold turkey' would be too hard.

If I had decided to give up the love of my life, because of some overriding concern, I think this is EXACTLY how I'd try to get through it. Same for *shudder* any sort of vow of abstinence.

[guesswest]

Your desire to eat meat is, in my experience, not culmulative - is my point. You won't crave meat more after not having eaten it for a week than you will after not having eaten it a day. In fact the opposite is true, the longer you don't eat meat the more gross it seems. The same is obviously not true of sex.

[hmkpoker]

Animals don't matter. Kill them all.

[Speedlimits]

[ QUOTE ]
It's definitely flawed thinking. It's not so much that the animals wouldn't be killed, more that they wouldn't exist in the first place - they're bred for meat. That's not to say eating meat is unethical, it's a much more complicated question than that, but thinking that it 'wouldn't make a difference' is not a good reason at all if you do think it is unethical.

As far as what you'd eat goes - just whatever. I often say, as a vegetarian, when people ask me about this - that if you imagined not eating meat for one day it'd be a trivially easy thing to do. You just do that - then do it again the next day, it's way easier than you'd imagine.

[/ QUOTE ]

Well I do think it is unethical to treat animals as badly as they do. My question is even if I don't eat meat, how will that change the fact that it won't happen still?

Also what is the difference between vegetarian and vegan.

[guesswest]

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My question is even if I don't eat meat, how will that change the fact that it won't happen still?

[/ QUOTE ]

Animals are bred for meat based on market demand. Less market demand, less of them bred and slaughtered for meat.

And a vegan doesn't consume any animal products - eg milk, eggs etc.

[valenzuela]

I think the desire of eating meat is defenetly culmulative for most people, any volunteer who is willing to do the experiment for us ?

[vhawk01]

[ QUOTE ]
Your desire to eat meat is, in my experience, not culmulative - is my point. You won't crave meat more after not having eaten it for a week than you will after not having eaten it a day. In fact the opposite is true, the longer you don't eat meat the more gross it seems. The same is obviously not true of sex.

[/ QUOTE ]

But IS true of leaving your loved one.

[Speedlimits]

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My question is even if I don't eat meat, how will that change the fact that it won't happen still?

[/ QUOTE ]

Animals are bred for meat based on market demand. Less market demand, less of them bred and slaughtered for meat.

And a vegan doesn't consume any animal products - eg milk, eggs etc.

[/ QUOTE ]

So do you ever eat fast food, or just eat salads at fast food places? I'm trying to think if being vegetarian is feasible without drastically changing my eating habits.

It is true that is costs more $ to be vegan though correct?
I mean not EATING any animal products seems like you would have to go to speciality stores to not be malnourished.

[guesswest]

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But IS true of leaving your loved one.

[/ QUOTE ]

In my experience too. Am guessing that one varies from person to person tho.

[guesswest]

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So do you ever eat fast food, or just eat salads at fast food places? I'm trying to think if being vegetarian is feasible without drastically changing my eating habits.

[/ QUOTE ]

I eat mostly crap. I eat all kinds of fast food - I get pizza without meat, burger places often have veggie burgers of some kind these days etc. Mexican food, Chinese food - all easy. It's really not difficult at all.

[ QUOTE ]
It is true that is costs more $ to be vegan though correct?
I mean not EATING any animal products seems like you would have to go to speciality stores to not be malnourished.

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm not a vegan, so I don't know, but my vegan friends have never mentioned it being more expensive. Most meat substitutes seem to cost roughly the same as their equivalent.

[madnak]

You don't get your hands dirty, you don't contribute to the demand, and you'd be surprised at what happens to your relationship with food. You'll get cravings for awhile, but then meat will start seeming really unappetizing - you'll want to eat it about as much as roadkill. You'll also never feel like there aren't enough alternatives - not if you look. Veganism is harder, and takes much more work - you can still have great variety and satisfaction, but it's expensive and you have to plan. I don't recommend going straight into veganism.

Personally I'm very glad to be a vegetarian - it's rewarding in more ways than one. If you worry that you won't feel good about it, don't - it can really make you feel better. But if it's not worth it to you, don't bother.

[Speedlimits]

[ QUOTE ]
You don't get your hands dirty, you don't contribute to the demand, and you'd be surprised at what happens to your relationship with food. You'll get cravings for awhile, but then meat will start seeming really unappetizing - you'll want to eat it about as much as roadkill. You'll also never feel like there aren't enough alternatives - not if you look. Veganism is harder, and takes much more work - you can still have great variety and satisfaction, but it's expensive and you have to plan. I don't recommend going straight into veganism.

Personally I'm very glad to be a vegetarian - it's rewarding in more ways than one. If you worry that you won't feel good about it, don't - it can really make you feel better. But if it's not worth it to you, don't bother.

[/ QUOTE ]

Well I have thought about it for awhile but my friend convinced me not too because he said it was some "pussy sh.it."

I know it would definitely make me feel better, but that's the thing I guess. If I did it I would be doing it more for myself than the animals, same result I suppose. One less meat eater.

[madnak]

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I'm not a vegan, so I don't know, but my vegan friends have never mentioned it being more expensive. Most meat substitutes seem to cost roughly the same as their equivalent.

[/ QUOTE ]


It depends on time investment and level of veganism. Technically virtually all food contains animal products. If you're that kind of vegan you really do need to go to specialty stores. But mostly you don't. Still, healthy vegan eating typically involves cooking. I don't cook, so to me it's a big deal. I actually did basically starve myself during the year I was vegan, because proper nutrition was just not worth enough. And if you live on a diet like mine - ramen and pasta, rice and beans, dollar store sales - going vegan will up the cost considerably.

If you go vegetarian, try to keep up on iron, B vitamins, calcium, and fats. People go nuts about protein, but protein isn't that hard. It's the stuff I mentioned that'll get you. Especially if you're vegan.

[madnak]

Don't be guilt-driven. You don't have some mission from God to stop eating animals. Like you say, same result. I've seen people go nuts with guilt over this stuff - probably due to some unrelated personal issues, but all the same. If you feel better eating meat, eat meat and enjoy it. Do you want animal conditions to improve based solely on big collective guilt trip? I sure don't.

Pay no attention to what we think about whether you should go vegetarian, or to what your friend thinks for that matter. Do what you do, and the rest will follow.

[FortunaMaximus]

Matter is matter. Whether you eat inanimate or animate matter is irrelevant. It is inanimate when you eat it, generally. Exotic diets aside.

I eat singluarities and hard candies. Crunching them has deletrious effects. There's a benefit though.

[Speedlimits]

[ QUOTE ]
Matter is matter. Whether you eat inanimate or animate matter is irrelevant. It is inanimate when you eat it, generally. Exotic diets aside.

I eat singluarities and hard candies. Crunching them has deletrious effects. There's a benefit though.

[/ QUOTE ]

Ok matter is matter. The question is about ethics though, animals suffered for you to eat certain matter. How do you respond to that? You are (me too) responsible for an animals un-needed suffering.

Also I believe your reasoning is far to simplistic. Morality
comes into play for instance, if someone killed your dog for a stranger to eat him. Would you feel the same way?

[vhawk01]

[ QUOTE ]
Matter is matter. Whether you eat inanimate or animate matter is irrelevant. It is inanimate when you eat it, generally. Exotic diets aside.

I eat singluarities and hard candies. Crunching them has deletrious effects. There's a benefit though.

[/ QUOTE ]

/images/graemlins/confused.gif I don't think its the 'eating dead animals' that people object to. I think its the 'how come this animal is dead?'

[FortunaMaximus]

No. I'd feel the same way about as if someone ate a friend of mine.

For I think there's an nonverbal agreement between man and wolf that each will eat the other and protect the other if it becomes necessary, and if it's not, just to have fun and take it easy.

My meat comes in vacuum packages. Who am I to know whether this came from cow, man, or dog? And, really, that's why I wonder sometimes. But I eat anyway. Because steak is great. So are eggs. You get some steak, eggs, toast... There's plenty of eggs to go around, every animal keeps reproducing.

I like vegetables. I eat a lot of 'em. But I'm healthier as an omnivore. Massing slightly over 80 kilos, I find vegetarianism just to be too much effort.

Could I give meat up? Sure. But I don't see the point. Do I accept responsibility for creating demand for meat, which causes those indignities against animals? Sure, but only my % of it. Do I feel guilt for it? Yes, sometimes, but I don't lose sleep over it.

[FortunaMaximus]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Matter is matter. Whether you eat inanimate or animate matter is irrelevant. It is inanimate when you eat it, generally. Exotic diets aside.

I eat singluarities and hard candies. Crunching them has deletrious effects. There's a benefit though.

[/ QUOTE ]

/images/graemlins/confused.gif I don't think its the 'eating dead animals' that people object to. I think its the 'how come this animal is dead?'

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't know, dude. Perhaps because it's easier than trying to chase a rabbit around with a fork and knife?

[vhawk01]

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No. I'd feel the same way about as if someone ate a friend of mine.

For I think there's an nonverbal agreement between man and wolf that each will eat the other and protect the other if it becomes necessary, and if it's not, just to have fun and take it easy.

My meat comes in vacuum packages. Who am I to know whether this came from cow, man, or dog? And, really, that's why I wonder sometimes. But I eat anyway. Because steak is great. So are eggs. You get some steak, eggs, toast... There's plenty of eggs to go around, every animal keeps reproducing.

I like vegetables. I eat a lot of 'em. But I'm healthier as an omnivore. Massing slightly over 80 kilos, I find vegetarianism just to be too much effort.

Could I give meat up? Sure. But I don't see the point. Do I accept responsibility for creating demand for meat, which causes those indignities against animals? Sure, but only my % of it. Do I feel guilt for it? Yes, sometimes, but I don't lose sleep over it.

[/ QUOTE ]

I would be willing to guarantee you your eggs do not come from a human.

[vhawk01]

[ QUOTE ]


[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Matter is matter. Whether you eat inanimate or animate matter is irrelevant. It is inanimate when you eat it, generally. Exotic diets aside.

I eat singluarities and hard candies. Crunching them has deletrious effects. There's a benefit though.

[/ QUOTE ]

/images/graemlins/confused.gif I don't think its the 'eating dead animals' that people object to. I think its the 'how come this animal is dead?'

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't know, dude. Perhaps because it's easier than trying to chase a rabbit around with a fork and knife?

[/ QUOTE ]

Right. Eating a dead animal, no moral qualms. Killing animals, potential moral qualms. The two are practically unrelated.

[Speedlimits]

[ QUOTE ]
No. I'd feel the same way about as if someone ate a friend of mine.

For I think there's an nonverbal agreement between man and wolf that each will eat the other and protect the other if it becomes necessary, and if it's not, just to have fun and take it easy.

My meat comes in vacuum packages. Who am I to know whether this came from cow, man, or dog? And, really, that's why I wonder sometimes. But I eat anyway. Because steak is great. So are eggs. You get some steak, eggs, toast... There's plenty of eggs to go around, every animal keeps reproducing.

I like vegetables. I eat a lot of 'em. But I'm healthier as an omnivore. Massing slightly over 80 kilos, I find vegetarianism just to be too much effort.

Could I give meat up? Sure. But I don't see the point. Do I accept responsibility for creating demand for meat, which causes those indignities against animals? Sure, but only my % of it. Do I feel guilt for it? Yes, sometimes, but I don't lose sleep over it.

[/ QUOTE ]

Accepting responsiblity without any consequence isn't much of a feat. It comes down to morality I suppose. Do you care about fellow animals enough to change eating habits, I guess you answered no.

[FortunaMaximus]

No. At least, not enough to give up meat for good. But when y'all come up with a palatable prosciutto cotto, let me know. How would I tell the difference?