If you've moved from religious to Athiest, how did that go?

[mbb]

I heard Julia Sweeney (ex-SNL, more recently doing one-woman shows about her experience surviving cancer) talking on the radio today about how she moved from Catholicism to Atheism.

In her case, she said that after she left the Catholic church she spent a couple of years exploring Eastern religions before resolving on Atheism.

Lately, I find myself outside of any formal church, but reluctant/scared to give up on the idea that there's something out there.

Whatever...

My question for you is, if you moved from being a member of an organized traditional religion, to Atheism, how did that happen?

Did it happen all at once?

Did you leave your original church but spend some time exploring spiritual alternatives before ending up as an Atheist?

Was it a calm and reasoned process, or an explosive realization?

(Ted Turner, for instance, talks about how his father's suicide drove him from religion).

TIA--

[hmkpoker]

Mine was progressive. Baptized Greek Orthodox Christian, raised and schooled Catholic, never bought the whole "only Christians go to heaven" thing, and never believed in free will. Throughout highschool I was interested in Eastern philosophy and assorted mysticism. I considered myself a Buddhist when I went to college, got into astrology, tarot, palmistry, meditation, hypnotism and kinds of assorted pop-psychism in order to find some sort of higher plateau of consciousness. Then I got into drugs, and they actually worked. Lost interest in mysticism and eastern philosophy. Somewhere late in college I figured out how logic worked and just decided that I was an atheist.

[IronUnkind]

[ QUOTE ]
Lately, I find myself outside of any formal church, but reluctant/scared to give up on the idea that there's something out there.

[/ QUOTE ]

You can't escape your roots, but if you seek truth with rigorous honesty, there is no shame in, at the very least, maintaining a hope that there is a god. Much better if you're not hoping against hope, of course.

[MidGe]

[ QUOTE ]
Did it happen all at once?


[/ QUOTE ]
I guess you become an atheist in one instant, but, it took many years to undo the complete baggage.
[ QUOTE ]


Did you leave your original church but spend some time exploring spiritual alternatives before ending up as an Atheist?

[/ QUOTE ]
Yes
[ QUOTE ]


Was it a calm and reasoned process, or an explosive realization?

[/ QUOTE ]

In general calm and reasoned with moments of illumination. /images/graemlins/smile.gif

[bunny]

Very gradual realisation. I would recommend not stressing about the fact that you dont know - it might make you leap to a conclusion for the wrong reasons.

[Praxis101]

I attended a Catholic school from grades 1-8, attending church regularly as a part of my schooling. Though I respected the church, as a child I could not wrap my head around some of the "facts" that were proposed daily.

Noah cramming all those critters on to a boat.
Jesus turning water into wine.

I was good at translating parables and stories like these into seemingly practical moral advice, but could never commit to believing them as true - as having happened in this world that I live in.

My high school years I didn't put much thought into it, lived by my own personal moral standards (some of which rubbed off from Christian teachings), and was content believing "I don't really know what's out there (God or not), but it doesn't seem worthwhile to worry about it."

College rolls around, I read lots of Nietzsche, who expresses clearly many ideas that I have felt and thought about personally, and now (at 20 years old) am calling myself an athiest.

[FortunaMaximus]

Loafin' and fishin' pretty much knuckleballs Christianity.

If whatever doesn't kill you makes you stronger, makes you wonder what does kill you does to you. Makes you invincible or something... Hmm.

[txag007]

How many of you guys had actually prayed to receive Christ into your heart before deciding to leave the Church? Just curious.

[Praxis101]

[ QUOTE ]
How many of you guys had actually prayed to receive Christ into your heart before deciding to leave the Church? Just curious.

[/ QUOTE ]

The only times I really "prayed" were during church, after communion, but I always felt silly doing it and as I got older I recall faking it often as to not offend anyone.

I wasn't praying to receive Jesus in my heart exactly - I was praying for health & happines for myself and my family (and some stupid stuff for myself).

Looking back, though, I realize that I was something like 8-12 years old when I was doing this, just kind of doing what I was told to do. I can't say I ever really truly thought I was speaking to God.

[Nielsio]

It's like getting rid of Santa Claus-belief, but with the added bonus of everyone you ever trusted to continue to say that it's real AND that it's moral.


The ABC's of totalitarianism - not to be used for evil!
http://www.freedomainradio.com/Traffic_Jams/how_to_control_a_human_soul.mp3

The carrot that comes after the stick
http://www.freedomainradio.com/Traffic_Jams/culture.mp3

[madnak]

[ QUOTE ]
How many of you guys had actually prayed to receive Christ into your heart before deciding to leave the Church? Just curious.

[/ QUOTE ]

Good [censored] Lord, man. You really know how to be insulting without even thinking about it. You think we just decided to up and leave on a whim?

The first thing was the nightmares of hell, and crying myself to sleep. My original suicidal thoughts coincided with my religious faith, as I began to see sin in everything I did. I began to have a delusional impression that the world was doomed, that Jesus was going to burn the world in fire and throw me where I "belonged." Medication helped me there, but it didn't stop the nightmares or the tears.

My religions didn't actually include hell. The LDS faith is low on that. My father tried to help me work through my problems. In some ways he did, convincing me that even the Telestial Kingdom is better than I can imagine, and I was a good kid who wouldn't go there. But he also explained how my prayers would be answered, how God would give me the strength to go on. The nightmares only got worse as I prayed and prayed to no avail. If anything I felt like I was crumbling into nothing, or maybe that's just what I wished would happen. Every day, as my prayers went unanswered, as unclean or aggressive thoughts entered my mind, as my sins (real and imagined) stacked up one on top of the other, I felt more and more confident that I was a dirty soul good for nothing but torture. I began to think God was much too good to sinners, that he should make us burn, just like all the images suggest, and that I could never be happy in the Telestial Kingdom because I'd know I didn't deserve it.

I got desperate. I started talking to people about the philosophy of religion, about God and sinners and the Bible and such things. Everyone tried to comfort me, but their words only made my unworthiness more and more clear to me. And every one of them explained how Jesus would come (http://www.courses.vcu.edu/ENG200-dwc/hughes.htm) if I prayed, and show me the way, and nurture my soul. And as my soul became more and more tortured, I prayed more and more, but with less and less expectation of any answer. Eventually I felt guilty praying, defiling God by putting such an unworthy thing as myself in His sight. My bitterness toward myself seeped out onto others. I would have spurts of anger and jealousy, I would become deeply withdrawn and afraid, I would scold people and maintain such an arrogant demeanor I was insufferable to everyone.

I had experienced from mental illness from the time I was born, but the severity of the problem increased almost exponentially. Panic attacks, spells of depression, and even straight delusions. I began to live more and more in my fantasies, and my sense of hopelessness became so strong it was almost a "faith" in itself.

Eventually I just...lost the energy for religion. I stopped living with Dad and went back to my mother, who was very concerned about my condition. She said it wasn't my fault, and that if praying didn't do anything for me, that only meant they were wrong about it. It appealed to me a lot, and even though I felt damned for accepting it, I want along with it. Ten years later wisps of religious fear still haunt me. That's the only thing left of it - the rest fell away relatively quickly. The fear is dissolving at a steady pace, and it's nothing compared to what it was. But I maintain a deep hatred of the doctrine of hell and any religion that supports it, because I remember what it did to my overactive imagination when I was young.

[Prodigy54321]

I was raised as a christian like my family..I don't think I remember going to church more than a couple times...my parents believed that worshipping from home was just as good...and they had 5 kids, so it was much easier...so they read us the childrens bible and stuff like that...and for a lot of my early childhood, I full believed everything that i learned about christianity to be true...I guess I was drawn in by the fun stories /images/graemlins/tongue.gif I can't really remember when I realized that I didn't believe in any religion, or gods or god altogether...it was most likley over a few years at least when I was around 13 or 14...

FWIW, I do remember that my first personal and impersonal encounters with atheists were pretty strange...

most were atheists because they couldn't believe that God would let bad things happen...although this could be an argument...it seemed more that they were angry with god.

I thought for much of my childhood that THAT is what atheism was..and I thought they were stupid..

I came to realize that there was no reason to believe in any god, but I didn't really know what to call it, so I just told everyone that I was not religious...

at some point I realized that most atheists are not "angry" at god like some that I has encountered, and that they simply didn't have any reason to believe in god...

I wouldn't encourage anyone to make any drastic changes to their beliefs during emotional times..even a religious person..there is simply too great a chance that they are not doing it for the "right" reasons..

[agent_fish]

[ QUOTE ]
How many of you guys had actually prayed to receive Christ into your heart before deciding to leave the Church? Just curious.

[/ QUOTE ]
I spoke in "tongues" as a pre-teen and a little as a teenager. It was pretty much me just babbling to fit in with the rest of holy rollers though. See, if you babble, it is a sign that you have the holy ghost, and this gives you higher status in the church. So yeah, I prayed to receive Christ in my heart. Then I became atheist some time around college. Why do you ask?

[bunny]

[ QUOTE ]
How many of you guys had actually prayed to receive Christ into your heart before deciding to leave the Church? Just curious.

[/ QUOTE ]
I dont know if you are deliberately distinguishing between believing in God and being part of a church. I had certainly prayed to accept jesus into my heart when I realised I no longer believed in god. Deciding to leave the church seemed only respectful of the minister and the rest of the congregation once I reached that realisation.

[BPA234]

Did it happen all at once?

Happened in two stages.

1st Stage: Raised Roman Catholic, at the age of 13, I rejected the dogmatic assertions of those around me who were preaching sin equals hell and adherence to church doctrine equals salvation.

IMO, there were too many contradictions, illogical suppositions and anachronistic ideologies.

Some questions I had @ 13:

1. What about the rest of the people who haven't heard of Jesus?
2. What about the dinosaurs?
3. Why do dead babies go to Limbo? Isn't that just a cruel method of recruitment and retention?

From age 14 forward, I refused to attend church and would not participate in any faith based activities. Although, I still believed in God, Jesus etc.

2nd Phase:

Age 24, I cancelled my cable tv and spent approximately nine months reading my way through my local public library. I can read at an accelerated pace, so I was able to read 5-15 books per week. Mostly non-fiction, with some fiction to substitute my television addiction.

Essentially, I read my way to empiricism. I sloughed of the consequences of societal (family, peers, teachers, media et al) perpetrated childhood brainwashing and ended up in a much purer state of awareness; not perfect by any stretch. But, I was at least free of the scripts that had been forced down my throat.

Religion & theism, without question, were the first to go. Ironically, this intellectual "conversion" carried the same weight of conversion that I have heard many Christians lay claim too, that Malcom X described in his auto-biography and that, according to recent reports, you can duplicate with hallucinogenic mushrooms. Although, I don't think the mushroom's effects are as long lasting.

Did you leave your original church but spend some time exploring spiritual alternatives before ending up as an Atheist?

Zero effort exploring spiritual alternatives. Although, I did read other religious tomes and a heap of philosophy books. Interestingly, many and most shared a fair amount of common ground or universal truths. Including, what I viewed as corruption of the base beliefs by men.

For example, most agree that killing is bad and you should not kill. Unless of course, it serves some need of whatever particular antagonistic belief is at issue; i.e.: unless the other guy has it coming.


Was it a calm and reasoned process, or an explosive realization?

Calm and reasoned. But, definitely jarring in places.

(Ted Turner, for instance, talks about how his father's suicide drove him from religion).

[BPA234]

Prior to rejecting my church, I prayed with all the power I could muster for Jesus to enter my heart, and nothing happened.

I will lay you 10-1, on any amount of money you care to wager, that any atheist who has already responded to this thread could get down on their knees and pray for Jesus to enter their heart and NOTHING would happen.

I just gave it a try and...NOTHING HAPPENED.

[Prodigy54321]

[ QUOTE ]
Prior to rejecting my church, I prayed with all the power I could muster for Jesus to enter my heart, and nothing happened.

I will lay you 10-1, on any amount of money you care to wager, that any atheist who has already responded to this thread could get down on their knees and pray for Jesus to enter their heart and NOTHING would happen.

I just gave it a try and...NOTHING HAPPENED.

[/ QUOTE ]

ZOMG hardened heart...satan's influence...trying to make yourself god...

noob

[Nielsio]

[ QUOTE ]
Did it happen all at once?

Happened in two stages.

1st Stage: Raised Roman Catholic, at the age of 13, I rejected the dogmatic assertions of those around me who were preaching sin equals hell and adherence to church doctrine equals salvation.

IMO, there were too many contradictions, illogical suppositions and anachronistic ideologies.

Some questions I had @ 13:

1. What about the rest of the people who haven't heard of Jesus?
2. What about the dinosaurs?
3. Why do dead babies go to Limbo? Isn't that just a cruel method of recruitment and retention?

From age 14 forward, I refused to attend church and would not participate in any faith based activities. Although, I still believed in God, Jesus etc.

2nd Phase:

Age 24, I cancelled my cable tv and spent approximately nine months reading my way through my local public library. I can read at an accelerated pace, so I was able to read 5-15 books per week. Mostly non-fiction, with some fiction to substitute my television addiction.

Essentially, I read my way to empiricism. I sloughed of the consequences of societal (family, peers, teachers, media et al) perpetrated childhood brainwashing and ended up in a much purer state of awareness; not perfect by any stretch. But, I was at least free of the scripts that had been forced down my throat.

Religion & theism, without question, were the first to go. Ironically, this intellectual "conversion" carried the same weight of conversion that I have heard many Christians lay claim too, that Malcom X described in his auto-biography and that, according to recent reports, you can duplicate with hallucinogenic mushrooms. Although, I don't think the mushroom's effects are as long lasting.

Did you leave your original church but spend some time exploring spiritual alternatives before ending up as an Atheist?

Zero effort exploring spiritual alternatives. Although, I did read other religious tomes and a heap of philosophy books. Interestingly, many and most shared a fair amount of common ground or universal truths. Including, what I viewed as corruption of the base beliefs by men.

For example, most agree that killing is bad and you should not kill. Unless of course, it serves some need of whatever particular antagonistic belief is at issue; i.e.: unless the other guy has it coming.


Was it a calm and reasoned process, or an explosive realization?

Calm and reasoned. But, definitely jarring in places.

(Ted Turner, for instance, talks about how his father's suicide drove him from religion).

[/ QUOTE ]


Bist du ein ACer?

[BPA234]

I had several friends who tried to get with Satan, apparently, he, like Jesus, God and Elvis, has left the building.

Not trying to be god, that role is already taken by http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/showth...e=0#Post7833941 (http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/showthreaded.php?Cat=0&Number=7833941&an=0&page=0# Post7833941)

[TomBrooks]

What does it matter? Is there any substantial difference between being religous or being an atheist? Neither one knows god.

[madnak]

Don't be so sure. Based on his avatar, I pass by God every day.

[Zeno]

I saw a burning bush in Mexico near the village of Tecoman. Out of the yellowish flames a soft voice spoke these profound words: David Sklansky knows all.

The rest, to use a cliché, is History.

-Zeno

[BPA234]

nicht

[51cards]

The Truth has set me free.

The truth is "There is no Truth".

[Speedlimits]

[ QUOTE ]
What does it matter? Is there any substantial difference between being religous or being an atheist? Neither one knows god.

[/ QUOTE ]

There is a huge difference are you kidding me.

[FortunaMaximus]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
What does it matter? Is there any substantial difference between being religous or being an atheist? Neither one knows god.

[/ QUOTE ]

There is a huge difference are you kidding me.

[/ QUOTE ]

What, a firmer posterior and sore knees from church?

[txag007]

[ QUOTE ]
The first thing was the nightmares of hell, and crying myself to sleep. My original suicidal thoughts coincided with my religious faith, as I began to see sin in everything I did. I began to have a delusional impression that the world was doomed, that Jesus was going to burn the world in fire and throw me where I "belonged." Medication helped me there, but it didn't stop the nightmares or the tears.


[/ QUOTE ]
The conviction of the Holy Spirit.

7But I tell you the truth: It is for your good that I am going away. Unless I go away, the Counselor will not come to you; but if I go, I will send him to you. 8When he comes, he will convict the world of guilt in regard to sin and righteousness and judgment: 9in regard to sin, because men do not believe in me; 10in regard to righteousness, because I am going to the Father, where you can see me no longer; 11and in regard to judgment, because the prince of this world now stands condemned. John 16:7-11

[ QUOTE ]
I got desperate. I started talking to people about the philosophy of religion, about God and sinners and the Bible and such things. Everyone tried to comfort me, but their words only made my unworthiness more and more clear to me. And every one of them explained how Jesus would come if I prayed, and show me the way, and nurture my soul. And as my soul became more and more tortured, I prayed more and more, but with less and less expectation of any answer.

[/ QUOTE ]
Were you waiting for a feeling? We are not saved by feelings.

[ QUOTE ]
Eventually I just...lost the energy for religion...Ten years later wisps of religious fear still haunt me. That's the only thing left of it - the rest fell away relatively quickly. The fear is dissolving at a steady pace, and it's nothing compared to what it was.

[/ QUOTE ]
If you don't act upon the Holy Spirit's conviction, Satan will take away the work that God was doing in your heart.

19When anyone hears the message about the kingdom and does not understand it, the evil one comes and snatches away what was sown in his heart. Matthew 13:19

You can't come to Jesus whenever you want to, but rather only when God calls you. Don't ignore his call. You might not get the opportunity again.

[madnak]

Well, txag, you've gone and rendered me speechless.

[Propertarian]

Slow and steady.

[PantsOnFire]

I was raised Catholic and as a teen and young man I slowly started realizing that the "book" I had been following, while good in most parts, contained parts that I just couldn't adhere to or believe in any more.

Thus, I could not continue being Catholic. I did investigate various religions on an infrequent basis and concluded that they were more or less alike. So I now consider myself agnostic.

I don't really believe true atheism is a tenable position to hold because I think it's presumptuous to flatly declare there is no superior being of any kind. At this point in time, I think it is impossible to be sure either way.

I am a man of science by the way and I would predict that of all the various people I have met in my occupation (electrical engineer), most would be considered agnostic as well. As a matter of fact, I know very few people who are not agnostic.

P.S. Now that I think about it, it was probably the "behavior control and modification through fear" angle that finally did it. For example, I have proven the "masterbation/hair on hand(s)" dogma is untrue by all accounts.

[kurto]

Txag?
http://www.templaruniversity.com/images/guido.jpg

[kurto]

[ QUOTE ]
How many of you guys had actually prayed to receive CHRIST/ALLAH/ZEUS/RA/Jeebo/Jengu/Mami Wata/Waaq/Eostre/Frige/Thor/Woden/Coyolxauhqui/Itztlacoliuhqui/Zoroaster/Aveta/Cocidus/Na Tuk Kong/Gay Yao/Amun/Anubis/Apep/Isis/Pekko/Rauni/Ukko/Aphrodite/Apollo/Ares/Athena/Cronus/Dionysus/Eros/Hades/Brahman/Vishnu/Shiva/Jehovah/Anshar/Anu/Balder/Frigg/Hodur/Loki/Odin/Haumia-tiketike/Ranginui/Tane Mahuta/Bacchus/Bellona/Ceres etc into your heart before deciding to leave the Church? Just curious.

[/ QUOTE ]

[Dominic]

I grew up Catholic and was an altar boy...I took what I was taught by my parents and my church to be true, without thinking for myself. When I became a teenager, I started asking questions and coming to conclusions myself.

I know it sounds snide and superior, but I became an atheist when I opened my eyes and mind to logic and common sense.

I'm not going to sit here and say that I know without a doubt there is no God, because then I would be no better than all the religious people out there, "sure" there is a God. But based on the evidence at hand, I would have to say the odds are slim to none there is a God; at least one that resembles anything in any of the world's religions.

[Jasper109]

[ QUOTE ]
I grew up Catholic and was an altar boy...I took what I was taught by my parents and my church to be true, without thinking for myself. When I became a teenager, I started asking questions and coming to conclusions myself.

I know it sounds snide and superior, but I became an atheist when I opened my eyes and mind to logic and common sense.

I'm not going to sit here and say that I know without a doubt there is no God, because then I would be no better than all the religious people out there, "sure" there is a God. But based on the evidence at hand, I would have to say the odds are slim to none there is a God; at least one that resembles anything in any of the world's religions.

[/ QUOTE ]

Pretty much the same thing, but it took me an extra 25 years to completely shed the last of my Catholic upbringing baggage.

It feels great, yet totally devastating, both at the same time.

[revots33]

For me it was more of a sudden epiphany. I was going to Catholic mass regularly, but found myself getting more and more agitated by what was being preached.

Finally, on 3 consecutive weeks I was given postcards to mail my elected officials. Once was to ask them to outlaw abortion. Once was to ask them to ban stem-cell research. Final card was to ask them to outlaw gay marriage. I actually asked myself in church, "what the hell am I doing here? I disagree with almost every position taken by this Church." I had to fight the urge to walk out during the homily.

This led to my questioning of everything else about my faith - from its teaching on morality (I read the entire Catholic Catechism), to the magical mumbo-jumbo I'd always accepted at face value (priests turning a bread wafer into a guy's flesh every week, virgins having babies - and then floating bodily up to heaven! - corpses walking out of their tomb, etc.) My rational mind suddenly refused to be silenced. I realized it was all utter and total b.s. It was not a fun realization. I felt almost embarassed when I realized how easy it was for me to be duped. And I felt sad and a little angry too, at being lied to for so long.

It feels good to finally think for myself and see the truth. But there's definitely stuff I miss. This will be the first Christmas Eve where I don't attend midnight mass and sing joyous carols. I'll miss that I think, that sense of happiness and community in church at times like that. It was also nice to think someone "up there" was looking out for me. And of course it was nice to anticipate my eventual reunion with my loved ones after I died. But I'd rather live the truth than a wish-fulfillment fantasy.

[FortunaMaximus]

[ QUOTE ]
Slow and steady.

[/ QUOTE ]

That does carry the day.

[TenFourOff]

Txag007, ask yourself why you need Jesus. What are you afraid of? You very well know that there is no empirical evidence to support any of your beliefs. The very concept of God contains so many fallacies. It not only scientifically impossible, it is logically inconsistent. Ask yourself the following:
1) Who created God? If God created himself, we have a self-creating creator. Why is this easier to believe in than a self-creating universe.
2) If God is omnipotent can he "create a stone he cannot lift?" I forgot the philosopher who wrote this, but it points to the logical inconsitency of true omnipotence.
3) If God wants followers, why doesn't he declare himself. If a voice boomed out from heaven yelling "pray to me," I and every other atheist I know would be on their knees praying.
4) God cannot be both omniscient and good. If he were both, he would know that evil was occurring and stop it.
5) Why are so many things said in the bible disproved by science?

The fact of the matter is that there is very little chance of the existence of god. A belief in such requires the suspension of logic. Religion is dangerous because it turns good men evil, and allows those with a questionable moral compass to do evil deeds. How many suicide bombers would there be without religion? How many wars have been caused by religion? How many millions of people have been killed because of religion?

Txag007, clear your head, and take a fresh look at the world. What you believe in is false. When you throw off the shackles of your thousand-year-old superstition you will become a much better person.

[txag007]

[ QUOTE ]
Txag007, ask yourself why you need Jesus.

[/ QUOTE ]
Because I'm a sinner.

[ QUOTE ]
What are you afraid of?

[/ QUOTE ]
Lots of things, but I'm strengthened by the Holy Spirit. See Phillipians 4:13.

[ QUOTE ]
You very well know that there is no empirical evidence to support any of your beliefs.

[/ QUOTE ]
In terms of personal experience, this is absolutely not true. Ask any Christian if they've experienced God's work in their lives.

[ QUOTE ]
The very concept of God contains so many fallacies.

[/ QUOTE ]
Since when is God limited by the constraints of human logic?

[ QUOTE ]
It not only scientifically impossible,

[/ QUOTE ]
How so?

[ QUOTE ]
it is logically inconsistent.

[/ QUOTE ]
No.

[ QUOTE ]
Ask yourself the following:

[/ QUOTE ]
Okay. Let's see.

[ QUOTE ]
1) Who created God? If God created himself, we have a self-creating creator. Why is this easier to believe in than a self-creating universe.

[/ QUOTE ]
John 1:1. In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. In other words, God is infinite and eternal. He did not create himself. He always has been.

[ QUOTE ]
2) If God is omnipotent can he "create a stone he cannot lift?" I forgot the philosopher who wrote this, but it points to the logical inconsitency of true omnipotence.


[/ QUOTE ]
Job 23:13 says God stands alone, and who can oppose him? He does whatever he pleases. That's where we get the belief that God is omnipotent. He is powerful enough to do whatever pleases Him. He cannot, however, contradict His own nature. That's why a person stained with sin cannot enter His presence.

[ QUOTE ]
3) If God wants followers, why doesn't he declare himself. If a voice boomed out from heaven yelling "pray to me," I and every other atheist I know would be on their knees praying.

[/ QUOTE ]
Two things are important to God: a belief in Him and a reliance on Him. He gave us the ability to reject Him so that He would know that our love is true. As Jesus told Thomas in John 20:29, "Because you have seen me, you have believed; blessed are those who have not seen and yet have believed."

[ QUOTE ]
4) God cannot be both omniscient and good. If he were both, he would know that evil was occurring and stop it.

[/ QUOTE ]
He created both us and the angels with the ability to reject Him. It's the fault of mankind that we live in a broken world. The truth is that He did know; that's why he gave Himself the opportunity to get us back by sacrificing a part of Himself for us. How is that not good?

[ QUOTE ]
5) Why are so many things said in the bible disproved by science?

[/ QUOTE ]
Name one.

[ QUOTE ]
The fact of the matter is that there is very little chance of the existence of god.

[/ QUOTE ]
That's a fact? Really?

[ QUOTE ]
A belief in such requires the suspension of logic.

[/ QUOTE ]
Again, why should God be bound by human logic?

[ QUOTE ]
Religion is dangerous because it turns good men evil, and allows those with a questionable moral compass to do evil deeds.

[/ QUOTE ]
The act of violence recorded in the Bible was over religion. That didn't mean that God doesn't exist. It just means that men are sinful and in need of redemption.

[ QUOTE ]
How many suicide bombers would there be without religion? How many wars have been caused by religion? How many millions of people have been killed because of religion?

[/ QUOTE ]
All evil deeds of a sinful man in a broken world. That's why we need Jesus!

[ QUOTE ]
Txag007, clear your head, and take a fresh look at the world. What you believe in is false. When you throw off the shackles of your thousand-year-old superstition you will become a much better person.

[/ QUOTE ]
I became a better person through the sanctification of the Holy Spirit. You will too; when you choose to accept Him.

[David Sklansky]

"A belief in such requires the suspension of logic."

"Again, why should God be bound by human logic?"

Did you say this for no reason? Or did you say this because you accept the first premise? Because once you use the God isn't bound by human logic argument there is nothing else to say. Because on this forum anyway, the question is not whether God exists but only whether his existence is logical.

[Lestat]

I'm being sincere here. I'm very impressed you tackled each question head on without too many scripture quotes or non-related banter. I wish you'd do more of that.

[TenFourOff]

Thank you for your answer. Although I vehemently disagree with you, I truly do appreciate the tone of your response. If there were a god, why would he give us the ability to think in a logical way? This causes so many of us to question his existence. You say that god is not bound by logic, yet fully admit that our universe is. If god created the universe, why didn't he make it bound by his logic, as opposed to our logic which leads to seeing the fallacies of his existence?

As to errors in the bible there are many. To start with Genesis, the creation myth is not backed up by science unless taken as an extreme allagory. There is no evidence for a great global flood, i.e. Noah. I believe Joshua talks about the earth standing still- If this were to occur it would violate all known laws of physics. If you look at all the "miracles" in the bible, none are backed up by independent sources.

Yet even with these errors people believe in a literal interpretation of the bible. The main danger in this is that the bible calls for many immoral acts. It justifies slavery in Leviticus. It calls for the stoning of homosexuals. In many other occassions it justifies genocide, murder and torture. It says that sin may be forgiven by prayer to an invisible entity as opposed to making appropriate reperations and changes.
Most people when left to their own devices will lead a moral life. Atheists have the lowest crime rate of any religion, when atheists are counted as a religion. The danger of religion is that it can twist someone's inherent moral compass. Look at the evangicals in this country. So many truly believe that God wants people to be a Republican, SUV-driving suburbanite. Charity is twisted to mean helping oneself. Environmentalism is equated with paganism. There are actual preachers today (Creflo Dollar, for example) who believe God's purpose is to make his followers rich.
To me, these beliefs seem twisted.

[txag007]

[ QUOTE ]
"A belief in such requires the suspension of logic."

"Again, why should God be bound by human logic?"

Did you say this for no reason? Or did you say this because you accept the first premise? Because once you use the God isn't bound by human logic argument there is nothing else to say. Because on this forum anyway, the question is not whether God exists but only whether his existence is logical.

[/ QUOTE ]
Be careful with my words. I didn't say belief in God was illogical. I'm asking a question about God's character. Why should he be bound by human logic?

[txag007]

[ QUOTE ]
I'm being sincere here. I'm very impressed you tackled each question head on without too many scripture quotes or non-related banter. I wish you'd do more of that.

[/ QUOTE ]
What can I say? I aim to please. /images/graemlins/laugh.gif

[Prodigy54321]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
"A belief in such requires the suspension of logic."

"Again, why should God be bound by human logic?"

Did you say this for no reason? Or did you say this because you accept the first premise? Because once you use the God isn't bound by human logic argument there is nothing else to say. Because on this forum anyway, the question is not whether God exists but only whether his existence is logical.

[/ QUOTE ]
Be careful with my words. I didn't say belief in God was illogical. I'm asking a question about God's character. Why should he be bound by human logic?

[/ QUOTE ]

He needs to give us the tools to know him if he demands it and is benevolent....

if this god is not bound by human logic, how are we to know him?..how can he blame us for not knowing him?

[txag007]

[ QUOTE ]
Thank you for your answer. Although I vehemently disagree with you, I truly do appreciate the tone of your response. If there were a god, why would he give us the ability to think in a logical way? This causes so many of us to question his existence. You say that god is not bound by logic, yet fully admit that our universe is. If god created the universe, why didn't he make it bound by his logic, as opposed to our logic which leads to seeing the fallacies of his existence?

[/ QUOTE ]
I don't think there are as many fallacies there as you do. Care to share some?

[ QUOTE ]
As to errors in the bible there are many. To start with Genesis, the creation myth is not backed up by science unless taken as an extreme allagory. There is no evidence for a great global flood, i.e. Noah. I believe Joshua talks about the earth standing still- If this were to occur it would violate all known laws of physics. If you look at all the "miracles" in the bible, none are backed up by independent sources.

[/ QUOTE ]
I will readily admit that the Biblical miracles violate the laws of physics. God is big enough to do that; He's bigger than our world.

As for everything else you mention, a lack of evidence is not the same as a contradiction.

[ QUOTE ]
Yet even with these errors people believe in a literal interpretation of the bible.

[/ QUOTE ]
I wouldn't call them "errors", but yes, I believe every word of the Bible is true.

[ QUOTE ]
The main danger in this is that the bible calls for many immoral acts. It justifies slavery in Leviticus. It calls for the stoning of homosexuals. In many other occassions it justifies genocide, murder and torture. It says that sin may be forgiven by prayer to an invisible entity as opposed to making appropriate reperations and changes.

[/ QUOTE ]
You're taking that out of context. You do realize that Jesus said to "love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you." (Matthew 5:44)? You realize that he said "love your neighbor as yourself" in Matthew 22:39, right?

What about when He said this in Luke 6:

27"But I tell you who hear me: Love your enemies, do good to those who hate you, 28bless those who curse you, pray for those who mistreat you. 29If someone strikes you on one cheek, turn to him the other also. If someone takes your cloak, do not stop him from taking your tunic. 30Give to everyone who asks you, and if anyone takes what belongs to you, do not demand it back. 31Do to others as you would have them do to you.

32"If you love those who love you, what credit is that to you? Even 'sinners' love those who love them. 33And if you do good to those who are good to you, what credit is that to you? Even 'sinners' do that. 34And if you lend to those from whom you expect repayment, what credit is that to you? Even 'sinners' lend to 'sinners,' expecting to be repaid in full. 35But love your enemies, do good to them, and lend to them without expecting to get anything back. Then your reward will be great, and you will be sons of the Most High, because he is kind to the ungrateful and wicked. 36Be merciful, just as your Father is merciful.

37"Do not judge, and you will not be judged. Do not condemn, and you will not be condemned. Forgive, and you will be forgiven. 38Give, and it will be given to you. A good measure, pressed down, shaken together and running over, will be poured into your lap. For with the measure you use, it will be measured to you."

39He also told them this parable: "Can a blind man lead a blind man? Will they not both fall into a pit? 40A student is not above his teacher, but everyone who is fully trained will be like his teacher.

41"Why do you look at the speck of sawdust in your brother's eye and pay no attention to the plank in your own eye? 42How can you say to your brother, 'Brother, let me take the speck out of your eye,' when you yourself fail to see the plank in your own eye? You hypocrite, first take the plank out of your eye, and then you will see clearly to remove the speck from your brother's eye.

That's not too immoral, is it?

[ QUOTE ]
It says that sin may be forgiven by prayer to an invisible entity as opposed to making appropriate reperations and changes.

[/ QUOTE ]
22But I tell you that anyone who is angry with his brother will be subject to judgment. Again, anyone who says to his brother, 'Raca,' is answerable to the Sanhedrin. But anyone who says, 'You fool!' will be in danger of the fire of hell.

23"Therefore, if you are offering your gift at the altar and there remember that your brother has something against you, 24leave your gift there in front of the altar. First go and be reconciled to your brother; then come and offer your gift. Matthew 5:22-24

That's not an appropriate reparation? What about the constant message of repentance Jesus preached?

[ QUOTE ]
Most people when left to their own devices will lead a moral life.

[/ QUOTE ]
I strongly disagree. You are born with a nature of sin. You have a tendency to sin. Look at a typical children's nursery with a roomfull of toddlers and toys. Let enough time go by and one child will have all of the toys to himself, or one child will walk up and take a toy away from another. Did somebody teach this child this? No. He was born that way. Just like you and me.

[ QUOTE ]
Atheists have the lowest crime rate of any religion, when atheists are counted as a religion.

[/ QUOTE ]
How do you know this?

[ QUOTE ]
The danger of religion is that it can twist someone's inherent moral compass. Look at the evangicals in this country. So many truly believe that God wants people to be a Republican, SUV-driving suburbanite. Charity is twisted to mean helping oneself. Environmentalism is equated with paganism. There are actual preachers today (Creflo Dollar, for example) who believe God's purpose is to make his followers rich.
To me, these beliefs seem twisted.

[/ QUOTE ]
I agree with your complaints here, but that's not a proof that God doesn't exist nor is it proof that the Bible isn't true. It's a problem with God's people, not with God.

[brashbrother]

[ QUOTE ]
Atheists have the lowest crime rate of any religion,

[/ QUOTE ]

90% of all statistics are made up.

Seriously, this is fallacious to argue. I believe you may be referring to a poll of prisoners that asked for their religious preference. Some very small number actually wrote in Atheist. Some larger number answered Catholic, Protestant, Muslim, etc. I heard of this some time ago, not sure of the source.

As I am sure you are aware, there is a big difference between "following Christ" and "indicating a religious preference."

[luckyme]

[ QUOTE ]
As I am sure you are aware, there is a big difference between "following Christ" and "indicating a religious preference."

[/ QUOTE ]

There is an immense difference between being an atheist and either of the above. not even in the same realm. The above are indistinguishable from the distance of atheism ( they both share the only measure used).

luckyme

[brashbrother]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
As I am sure you are aware, there is a big difference between "following Christ" and "indicating a religious preference."

[/ QUOTE ]

There is an immense difference between being an atheist and either of the above. not even in the same realm. The above are indistinguishable from the distance of atheism ( they both share the only measure used).

luckyme

[/ QUOTE ]

I was just referrring to his view that Atheists have a lower crime rate, and how that idea came about. His implication was that Atheism created a stronger moral fiber than Christianity. My point was that people who claim to be of a certain religious preference (but don't actually practice it) often get lumped in to the Christian side of things for the purposes of determining statistics. I don't make the claim that Atheism is a religion.

[Prodigy54321]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
As I am sure you are aware, there is a big difference between "following Christ" and "indicating a religious preference."

[/ QUOTE ]

There is an immense difference between being an atheist and either of the above. not even in the same realm. The above are indistinguishable from the distance of atheism ( they both share the only measure used).

luckyme

[/ QUOTE ]

I was just referrring to his view that Atheists have a lower crime rate, and how that idea came about. His implication was that Atheism created a stronger moral fiber than Christianity. My point was that people who claim to be of a certain religious preference (but don't actually practice it) often get lumped in to the Christian side of things for the purposes of determining statistics. I don't make the claim that Atheism is a religion.

[/ QUOTE ]

what do you mean, they are "lumped in to the christian side of things"..

as far as your argument against the statistic's validity goes...

atheists are much less likley to commit crimes than christians.

saying that they are not actually following christ doesn't matter.

as a hypothetical exercise....Religion A says that killing someone is bad, Religion B says that killing someone is bad. I have a statistic that say that members of religion B kill 50% more people than members of religion A.

does the fact that religion B says that killing someone is bad mean that this statistic is any different?

since christianity says that murder is bad, does that mean that we shouldn't consider anyone that killed anyone to believe in christianity?...

in that case, no christians have ever murdered.

actually, this may very well be the way to look at it, but it doesn't change the statistic

the common argument that atheists are immoral is simply untrue...

and I doubt that atheists even have a higher rate of committing most christian sins than actual christians..although that's just a guess.

people who do not believe that there is a god are much less likely to commit crimes than people who believe that christianity is true...it's that simple.

[txag007]

[ QUOTE ]
people who do not believe that there is a god are much less likely to commit crimes than people who believe that christianity is true...it's that simple.

[/ QUOTE ]
How do you know this?

[Prodigy54321]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
people who do not believe that there is a god are much less likely to commit crimes than people who believe that christianity is true...it's that simple.

[/ QUOTE ]
How do you know this?

[/ QUOTE ]

there have been several studies..the one that was referenced a few posts above is just one.

EDIT: actually he didn't reference the study..I'll try to look for the one I think he was referring to and some others

I have to go to class, but I'll be back later tonight and I'l post some..probably in a new thread to discuss it.

some of them are about social ills by country and how religious they are..these don't seem like they support my statement as much as others do, because it is likley that there are other, bigger factors from nation to nation...anyway, I'll be back later

[kurto]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
people who do not believe that there is a god are much less likely to commit crimes than people who believe that christianity is true...it's that simple.

[/ QUOTE ]
How do you know this?

[/ QUOTE ]

If I had to guess I'd bet that your religion (or lack thereof) has little bearing on your likelihood of committing crimes.

[Prodigy54321]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
people who do not believe that there is a god are much less likely to commit crimes than people who believe that christianity is true...it's that simple.

[/ QUOTE ]
How do you know this?

[/ QUOTE ]

If I had to guess I'd bet that your religion (or lack thereof) has little bearing on your likelihood of committing crimes.

[/ QUOTE ]

atheists make up only .2% of the prison population in the US...whereas about 8% of americans are atheists

or something like that I saw on some thing on the internet posted I think in politics a while back..

I don't know what study this is taken from though.

[brashbrother]

This is exactly what I was saying was bunk.

Let's assume that the statistics were done correctly, and that the population surveyed was large and sufficient to represent all prisoners. (this is already a stretch)

So out of 10,000 prisoners, only 20 say they are atheist, while the rest choose "none" or Christian or Catholic or muslim or whatever.

1. Who says the ones who check that box are truly Christian?
2. Whos says when they became Christian? (ie before or after imprisonment)
3. Who says the 20 are truly atheist?
4. Who says the 9,980 are not Christian or atheist?
5. Who says there is a causal relationship between religious choice and crimes convicted?
6. Who said atheists were considered more immoral than Christian? (hint: not me)

Simple fact is there is not enough info to make a ridiculous blanket statement that Atheists are less likely to commit a crime than Christians.

Surveys are one of the weakest forms of evidence, you would do well not to use them to form strong opinions on entire populations of people.

[Prodigy54321]

that's exactly what I'm talking about...

just because you commit a crime that the bible says that you shoudn't, doesn't mean that you are not truly a christian..

even still, other people considering you as a christian or not is not the issue...

the fact is...it is a person who believes that the christian god is the true god and jesus was his son..

you wouldn't even think of not considering these people as christians..until you see that they have committed a crime

they know that committing this crime is considered as "bad", but the question is whether or not they commit these crimes more or less often if they are of a specific religion.

and OK, maybe you don't make the claim that atheists are more immoral that christians, but many christian do believe that

the research suggests that there IS a relationship between religious beliefs and crimes committed...

again, I'll be back in a few hours to discuss it.

[Prodigy54321]

also, there is no refuting that there is a statistical anomaly...

and there IS a reason for it..

the obvious one is the one the one I discussed..

there are other possibilities, but you can't just throw it out and say that it is absurd...

if you have another possible explanation for this anomaly, then offer it.

[madnak]

The statistical methods are presumably similar to those used to determine that 8% of Americans are atheists. I've never been exposed to this study, so I can't say for sure. But the entire point of procedural controls is to invalidate arguments like these.

Of course, correlation doesn't imply causation, and the correlates here are crime and claims of religion (as opposed to actual religion). But if the referenced statistic is true, it's hard to imagine there isn't an inverse correlation between atheism and criminality.

By the way, nobody is suggesting atheists have stronger "moral fiber." Likely if atheists are less likely to commit crimes, it's because atheists tend to be richer and smarter than the average person.

[brashbrother]

[ QUOTE ]
also, there is no refuting that there is a statistical anomaly...

and there IS a reason for it..

the obvious one is the one the one I discussed..

there are other possibilities, but you can't just throw it out and say that it is absurd...

if you have another possible explanation for this anomaly, then offer it.

[/ QUOTE ]

Madnak explains correctly that a correlation does not necessarily indicate a causation. For instance, if 22% of people drive a 4-door car, but 42% of people in prison have a 4-door car, this does not indicate that choosing a 4-door car makes you more likely to commit a crime.

I would not be surprised if Atheists were rare in prisons, but I do not think it is BECAUSE they are atheist that keeps them out of jail.

The earlier claim that I was refuting was that somehow atheists were LESS LIKELY to commit crimes than Christians. If you control for education, financial success, etc, then you will see what I mean.

And you will not find very many educated Christians who think that our jails are populated with Atheists. Most of us realize that people who are in jail come from all walks of life, but socioeconomic status is a much more accurate indicator of criminal behavior than religion.

[kurto]

[ QUOTE ]
And you will not find very many educated Christians who think that our jails are populated with Atheists. Most of us realize that people who are in jail come from all walks of life, but socioeconomic status is a much more accurate indicator of criminal behavior than religion.


[/ QUOTE ]

I'd bet you're wrong here. Polling has shown that atheists are looked down upon as immoral and untrustworthy. I believe they covered a lot of these stats and showed people's attitudes towards atheists on the show 30 Days.

[brashbrother]

[ QUOTE ]


I'd bet you're wrong here. Polling has shown that atheists are looked down upon as immoral and untrustworthy. I believe they covered a lot of these stats and showed people's attitudes towards atheists on the show 30 Days.

[/ QUOTE ]

OK, I am sure that show displayed a prevalance and had polls to support it. This does not refute my claim about "educated Christians," unless the poll corrected for this.

If this has not been your experience, on behalf of educated Christians, I apologize.

On the contrary, I would suspect that your "average" atheist is quite sure of himself, so reliant on himself that his own word would be of paramount importance to keep, and educated enough to make compelling arguments to explain his reasoning regularly.

Confidence, independence and education are not usually what I would expect to find in the general prison population.

[kurto]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]


I'd bet you're wrong here. Polling has shown that atheists are looked down upon as immoral and untrustworthy. I believe they covered a lot of these stats and showed people's attitudes towards atheists on the show 30 Days.

[/ QUOTE ]

OK, I am sure that show displayed a prevalance and had polls to support it. This does not refute my claim about "educated Christians," unless the poll corrected for this.

If this has not been your experience, on behalf of educated Christians, I apologize.

On the contrary, I would suspect that your "average" atheist is quite sure of himself, so reliant on himself that his own word would be of paramount importance to keep, and educated enough to make compelling arguments to explain his reasoning regularly.

Confidence, independence and education are not usually what I would expect to find in the general prison population.

[/ QUOTE ]

The polls were not singling out educated christians. I don't think most surveys of Christians are seperating them into two groups.

[ QUOTE ]
Confidence, independence and education are not usually what I would expect to find in the general prison population.

[/ QUOTE ]

Depends on whether we're talking about bluecollar or whitecollar crime. Though I believe whitecollar crime is not as well represented in the prison population as it should be.

That's another discussion.

I'm merely saying that I think a lot of Christians look down upon atheists and view them as immoral. (My brother is born again and he's fond of trying to make me watch his favorite sermons from different televangelists spouting how immoral and wrong atheists and other religions are. Makes family holidays exciting!) /images/graemlins/smirk.gif

[bunny]

[ QUOTE ]
atheists make up only .2% of the prison population in the US...whereas about 8% of americans are atheists

[/ QUOTE ]
I've only skimmed the thread (so apologies if this has been brought up) but this hardly seems surprising since poverty is strongly correlated with going to jail and I'm willing to bet the 8% american atheists are not from the poorer sections of the population, by and large.

[Prodigy54321]

I've been searching for a while for studies of these kinds and haven't found anything that I would say conclusively supports my claim..

I can't find any statistics that are gathered as one group, using the same criteria...

some of them have groups like nonreligious/atheist, whereas others have a separate group for specifically declared atheists..and more stuff like that...

I'm disapppointed that I can't find a good study on this..they all seem to suck..

they point to what I said, that incarceration rates are lower among atheists than other religions, but they aren't even close to conclusive IMO...

there is the one on prosperous democracies and how religious they are, but as I already said, that doesn't seem conclusive to me either..and I would say that it is most likely the other way around..being prosperous myielding less religion..rather than less religion yeilding more prosperity

If anyone can find anything good, feel free to post it..

one of the very few times the internet has not helped me at all..

[MidGe]

Well, at the very least, it should put to rest the view that religion is a moral element in society (not more so than atheism), that society would fall apart without religion.

[kurto]

I'm guessing this guy is educated.

A theist on atheists and morals (http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/showthreaded.php?Cat=0&Number=7895702&page=0)