PDA

View Full Version : Assuming Vs. Faith


Lestat
10-28-2006, 02:05 AM
I suppose Sklansky got me again, but this time (I think) it's only a technicality.

Of course, given information one would (and should) go with the favorable odds when making a decision or arriving at a belief. But what if odds are not available?

Imagine our ancestors as hunter/gatherers being forced to leave an area either due to inclement weather or lack of food sources. Now of course, if there were any evidence at all pointing to one direction yielding a more favorable result than another, the answer is easy. But what if there were no clue on which way to go? In other words, no probability to say any one direction is better than any other. Does Sklansky mean to say that they now should stay put and surely perish, because nothing can be assumed about any direction? Hardly. A decision must be made, a belief must be formed, and a direction must be chosen.

Perhaps this isn't the best example. Maybe two unfamiliar tribes meeting and one having to place trust (faith), in the other over some kind of trade, etc. I'm hoping others (who see my point, if I have one), can provide better examples.

But I submit that faith (not merely assumptions) holds an important place in the human pysche. There is a need to feel grounded even in the absence of evidence or probabilities.

By the way, this is why I'm not much bothered by someone who postulates a god to fill the unanswerable questions of his existence, meaning of life, or what it all means. I am however, greatly bothered by those who extend such a faith to include beliefs that require a complete suspension of one's reality and all known evidence to them. I'm referring to burning bushes that talk, parting seas, two fish multiplying to feed hundreds of people, and so on. These things supercede faith, and reach into outright gullibility.

alphatmw
10-28-2006, 02:15 AM
i don't know what sklansky's original argument was, but i doubt it was one which leads to the conclusion that no choice is the end result when faced with two equally appealing choices.

Lestat
10-28-2006, 02:31 AM
[ QUOTE ]
i don't know what sklansky's original argument was, but i doubt it was one which leads to the conclusion that no choice is the end result when faced with two equally appealing choices.

[/ QUOTE ]

He is saying that the ability to "assume" is the necessary survival mechanism and not faith. I'm saying it's faith or that the two (assuming and faith) can be interchangable and he his nitpicking.

IronUnkind
10-28-2006, 02:33 AM
[ QUOTE ]
Imagine our ancestors as hunter/gatherers being forced to leave an area either due to inclement weather or lack of food sources. Now of course, if there were any evidence at all pointing to one direction yielding a more favorable result than another, the answer is easy. But what if there were no clue on which way to go? In other words, no probability to say any one direction is better than any other. Does Sklansky mean to say that they now should stay put and surely perish, because nothing can be assumed about any direction? Hardly. A decision must be made, a belief must be formed, and a direction must be chosen.

[/ QUOTE ]

Unless one assumes the existence of an external force (gods or whatever) which exerts some positive influence on their hunches, your hunter/gatherers are no worse off if they flip a coin in this instance. Their "faith" only serves a purpose if it actually gives them an advantage. This is ignoring, of course, any placebo effect that might make them more psychologically fit for their journey. But if they ran out of water, I doubt that this confidence would have any effect on the outcome of their decision.

I think there is a type of faith which is fundamental and advantageous to humans, but it's of a different character than the type you discuss here.

IronUnkind
10-28-2006, 02:39 AM
[ QUOTE ]
He is saying that the ability to "assume" is the necessary survival mechanism and not faith. I'm saying it's faith or that the two (assuming and faith) can be interchangable and he his nitpicking.

[/ QUOTE ]

I suppose he is saying that faith is not really a valuable survival mechanism in terms of decision-making. In the cases where no meaningful probabilities can be determined, faith is no more helpful than guessing.

IronUnkind
10-28-2006, 02:45 AM
Now that I think about it, you would be correct if it could be determined that in uncertain situations, faith allowed humans to make a decision where otherwise they would have been paralyzed by the lack of a reasonable choice. In other words, if faith promotes decisiveness, then it is distinctly beneficial.

David Sklansky
10-28-2006, 03:40 AM
The only way what you are saying makes any sense is if you are not defining faith the way most people do. Faith means virtual certainty without good cause.

IronUnkind
10-28-2006, 03:47 AM
[ QUOTE ]
Faith means virtual certainty without good cause.

[/ QUOTE ]

Would you agree that even under this definition, if it caused them to act when they would otherwise be immobile, that faith is advantageous?

David Sklansky
10-28-2006, 03:55 AM
It's an irrelevant question. The point is that people DON'T have this kind of faith. Even the ones who say they do.

See my post about bunny and RJT.

John21
10-28-2006, 04:04 AM
[ QUOTE ]
By the way, this is why I'm not much bothered by someone who postulates a god to fill the unanswerable questions of his existence, meaning of life, or what it all means. I am however, greatly bothered by those who extend such a faith to include beliefs that require a complete suspension of one's reality and all known evidence to them. I'm referring to burning bushes that talk, parting seas, two fish multiplying to feed hundreds of people, and so on. These things supercede faith, and reach into outright gullibility.


[/ QUOTE ]

I don't know how it would be possible to have any kind of intelligent discussion about God, faith, etc... without conceding to the framework you defined, without falling into the realm of magic, miracles, etc...

With that said, I wonder how much of a role imagination plays in the process. Could human beings simply imagined a situation or circumstance that was better than what they were experiencing and chose to believe it?