Who are the REAL martyrs?

[IronUnkind]

Both Christians and atheists (or however you self-identify) seem to think that they are the persecuted group. And I hear both sides bemoaning some development in government, schools, workplace standards, etc., and pointing to such as evidence that the country or the world is on the verge of apocalypse.

If some school board mandates that Intelligent Design must be taught, the atheists go nuts. Likewise, when some school says you have to teach about homosexuality in sex ed., Christians have a collective aneurysm. "They're forcing their viewpoint on everyone!" is the common cry.

So who are the real victims? And what is the trend? Is the culture becoming increasingly religious or increasingly secular?

[FortunaMaximus]

tl;dr.

Single mothers and it's not even remotely close.

[hmkpoker]

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If some school board mandates that Intelligent Design must be taught, the atheists go nuts. Likewise, when some school says you have to teach about homosexuality in sex ed., Christians have a collective aneurysm. "They're forcing their viewpoint on everyone!" is the common cry.

[/ QUOTE ]

Both sides are forcing their viewpoint on everyone. If you want it to actually be fair, provide options; have a creationism class for religious students, and a progressive sex ed class for liberal students. It's not that hard.

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Both Christians and atheists (or however you self-identify) seem to think that they are the persecuted group.

[/ QUOTE ]

People sympathize with persecution. We're trained to love the underdog. It's an excellent tool for gaining support. Why do you think cute upper-class white teenage girls cut themselves visibly?

[IronUnkind]

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If you want it to actually be fair, provide options; have a creationism class for religious students, and a progressive sex ed class for liberal students. It's not that hard.

[/ QUOTE ]

People suppose that it is not the role of public schools to "teach values." Yet, since values are inherent to curricular choices, it is unavoidable. If the measures you propose were followed, people would still be up in arms at the compromise.

Moreover, it's naive to say, "it's not that hard." Implementing an alternative curriculum is onerous and impractical, especially given the nature of the disputes. What would a "progressive sex ed." class teach that is any different from the standard health class? The dispute is too minor to warrant this alternative. Also, spending public funds to teach Creation Science probably violates the establishment clause, and even if it doesn't, it would be a bitter pill for atheist taxpayers to swallow.

[hmkpoker]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
If you want it to actually be fair, provide options; have a creationism class for religious students, and a progressive sex ed class for liberal students. It's not that hard.

[/ QUOTE ]

People suppose that it is not the role of public schools to "teach values." Yet, since values are inherent to curricular choices, it is unavoidable. If the measures you propose were followed, people would still be up in arms at the compromise.

[/ QUOTE ]

Just privatize all the schools and give the parents vouchers. Boom, now people have a choice in what schools they send their kids to. What's the problem?

[51cards]

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Just privatize all the schools and give the parents vouchers. Boom, now people have a choice in what schools they send their kids to. What's the problem?


[/ QUOTE ]

Winner!

And maybe we could cut out the middle man, so we don't have to pay anyone to take our money and give it back.

[madnak]

[ QUOTE ]
Both Christians and atheists (or however you self-identify) seem to think that they are the persecuted group. And I hear both sides bemoaning some development in government, schools, workplace standards, etc., and pointing to such as evidence that the country or the world is on the verge of apocalypse.

If some school board mandates that Intelligent Design must be taught, the atheists go nuts. Likewise, when some school says you have to teach about homosexuality in sex ed., Christians have a collective aneurysm. "They're forcing their viewpoint on everyone!" is the common cry.

So who are the real victims? And what is the trend? Is the culture becoming increasingly religious or increasingly secular?

[/ QUOTE ]

Oh brother. None of this stuff is persecution. Neither group is persecuted. Whiners.

Atheists are harassed and treated unfairly, but not in terms of public policy.

And culture is becoming more secular.

[John21]

Ultimately, I think we all suffer. And I believe the private school idea would just increase the polarization.

As hmk said, each side is more concerned about their own agenda than truth or public good. But I do believe the side that needs to give way is the religious right. Even though I believe in God, I find it extremely ironic that the atheists are in the position of having to defend their position rather than the other way around.

The best world would be one in which all popular views were acknowledged and made available. We're at a point where evolution (not orgin of life) is close to fact and at the very least merits exposure as the best possible explanation we have. But there needs to be some sort of litmus test, i.e. I wouldn't like to see the idea of reptilian lizard people, who live in the sewers of New York, and secretly rule the earth, being taught in a civics class.

Overall, there needs to be a level of honesty from both sides saying, "here's what we know, here's what we don't know." Right now, it's a game that each side is trying to win. And until we reach some common ground - we all lose.

[FortunaMaximus]

I think the problem with your approach, hmk, is that the higher the efficiency, the less room there is for creative error and a disparity in the group dynamic you get in a public system.

Sure, government is flawed, retarded things happen, they can't spend money properly, they invade countries for multiple reasons that aren't well-intentioned nor advertised. And they're piss-poor and bungle the most common of infrastructure decisions in bringing the Third World up to First World standards, and there's no reason why this process couldn't happen faster.

Governments are exploitable, and they float off taxation while giving substandard services, and that sucks. Democracy is flawed in that you vote for x number of people that's massively disporpotional to population.

Now if you took that approach you have to education and applied it to a governmental system instead where there were daily referendums instead of some old farts in silk suits, etc. And had a shifting popular opinion index, you'd see the vox populi have a more efficient system in where they could sway change.

The technology's in place and saturated, the systems aren't there, and it's going to take a different approach than destructive terrorism to implement a better system. I'm all for that, but doing it a module at a time sucks.

[hmkpoker]

[ QUOTE ]
I think the problem with your approach, hmk, is that the higher the efficiency, the less room there is for creative error and a disparity in the group dynamic you get in a public system.

Sure, government is flawed, retarded things happen, they can't spend money properly, they invade countries for multiple reasons that aren't well-intentioned nor advertised. And they're piss-poor and bungle the most common of infrastructure decisions in bringing the Third World up to First World standards, and there's no reason why this process couldn't happen faster.

Governments are exploitable, and they float off taxation while giving substandard services, and that sucks. Democracy is flawed in that you vote for x number of people that's massively disporpotional to population.

Now if you took that approach you have to education and applied it to a governmental system instead where there were daily referendums instead of some old farts in silk suits, etc. And had a shifting popular opinion index, you'd see the vox populi have a more efficient system in where they could sway change.

The technology's in place and saturated, the systems aren't there, and it's going to take a different approach than destructive terrorism to implement a better system. I'm all for that, but doing it a module at a time sucks.

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[FortunaMaximus]

Never mind.

[Prodigy54321]

[ QUOTE ]
Overall, there needs to be a level of honesty from both sides saying, "here's what we know, here's what we don't know." Right now, it's a game that each side is trying to win. And until we reach some common ground - we all lose.


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QFT