Do we need Faith to have Hope?

[John21]

With the definition of 'faith' being: believing something will occur without any objective evidence to believe it will or will not occur.

And the definition of 'hope' being: a positive outcome.

[Prodigy54321]

[ QUOTE ]
And the definition of 'hope' being: a positive outcome.

[/ QUOTE ]

Im not sure what you mean here..are you defining "hope" as the positive outcome itself?...

so your question is "do we need faith to have a positive outcome?"

to this I would say not, in fact quite the opposite, but I don't think this is what you meant to say..please clarify

[luckyme]

[ QUOTE ]
With the definition of 'faith' being: believing something will occur without any objective evidence to believe it will or will not occur.

And the definition of 'hope' being: a positive outcome.

[/ QUOTE ]

Using those definitions, obviously not. You could have a positive outcome regardless of your feelings/thoughts on a subject.

luckyme

[FortunaMaximus]

The emotional valuation of hope without faith is a far steeper incline/decline progression.

I don't think you can separate the two concepts except in semantic discussions. There are no LaGrange points where that's concerned.

[John21]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
And the definition of 'hope' being: a positive outcome.

[/ QUOTE ]

Im not sure what you mean here..are you defining "hope" as the positive outcome itself?...

so your question is "do we need faith to have a positive outcome?"

to this I would say not, in fact quite the opposite, but I don't think this is what you meant to say..please clarify

[/ QUOTE ]

Sorry. I was referring to a 'belief' in a positive outcome.

So for example, say someone was fired from his job, and then said that he believed he'll find an even better job. He has no evidence that he will find a better job, and no evidence that he won't.

We could objectively conclude that he has hope of finding a better job, but for that hope to be present within him - does it require a degree of faith, i.e. do we need faith to have hope?

[bkholdem]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
And the definition of 'hope' being: a positive outcome.

[/ QUOTE ]

Im not sure what you mean here..are you defining "hope" as the positive outcome itself?...

so your question is "do we need faith to have a positive outcome?"

to this I would say not, in fact quite the opposite, but I don't think this is what you meant to say..please clarify

[/ QUOTE ]

Sorry. I was referring to a 'belief' in a positive outcome.

So for example, say someone was broke , and then said that he believed he'll win the lottery . He has no evidence that he will win the lottery, and no evidence that he won't.

We could objectively conclude that he has hope of winning the lottery , but for that hope to be present within him - does it require a degree of faith, i.e. do we need faith to have hope?

[/ QUOTE ]

Can he hope to 'win the lottery' without having faith?

[Prodigy54321]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
And the definition of 'hope' being: a positive outcome.

[/ QUOTE ]

Im not sure what you mean here..are you defining "hope" as the positive outcome itself?...

so your question is "do we need faith to have a positive outcome?"

to this I would say not, in fact quite the opposite, but I don't think this is what you meant to say..please clarify

[/ QUOTE ]

Sorry. I was referring to a 'belief' in a positive outcome.

So for example, say someone was fired from his job, and then said that he believed he'll find an even better job. He has no evidence that he will find a better job, and no evidence that he won't.

We could objectively conclude that he has hope of finding a better job, but for that hope to be present within him - does it require a degree of faith, i.e. do we need faith to have hope?

[/ QUOTE ]

the problem seems to be whether we are talking about "having hope" or the action of "hoping"..

"hoping" is basically just desiring a certain outcome..I think we can desire a specific outcome whether or not we think it will actually occur with a greater probability that it actually will..

I can hope that an Ace falls on the river, but I can still accept that it will only actually happen x% of the time

"having hope" seems to be used sometimes just like "having faith"..I suppose that in this context it's not so much that you need hope to have faith, but that they are essentially meaning the same thing

[FortunaMaximus]

Yeah, but you're looking at the lowest end of the probability range and introducing an artificial separation.

But nicely done.

[bkholdem]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
And the definition of 'hope' being: a positive outcome.

[/ QUOTE ]

Im not sure what you mean here..are you defining "hope" as the positive outcome itself?...

so your question is "do we need faith to have a positive outcome?"

to this I would say not, in fact quite the opposite, but I don't think this is what you meant to say..please clarify

[/ QUOTE ]

And to me, hope, is not a positive outcome. Hope is an intervention we do to ourself. To think 'happy thoughts' or to stop thinking depressing thoughts.

Mom is going in to heart surgery... let's 'hope' she will be O.K.

Well what acutally goes down... we are worrying she might not be ok and by saying lets hope she will be ok we trick ourselves into not worrying. Mom is no better off...the surgeon might slip and drive a scalpel through her heart irrespective or our playing a trick on our minds to stop worrying.

[luckyme]

[ QUOTE ]
Well what acutally goes down... we are worrying she might not be ok and by saying lets hope she will be ok we trick ourselves into not worrying. Mom is no better off...the surgeon might slip and drive a scalpel through her heart irrespective or our playing a trick on our minds to stop worrying.

[/ QUOTE ]

There seems more than that at work. It touches on the area of 'thinking bad thoughts may cause them to happen', crossing our fingers as the cop approaches, all the vestiges of mysterious forces at work that we still suffer with. In mom's case, there's some of the "well, we don't want to wish her ill" implied in our, "let's hope she'll be fine".

luckyme

[John21]

[ QUOTE ]
The emotional valuation of hope without faith is a far steeper incline/decline progression.


[/ QUOTE ]

[ QUOTE ]
Yeah, but you're looking at the lowest end of the probability range and introducing an artificial separation.

But nicely done.

[/ QUOTE ]


I wasn't trying to introduce a seperation, just aware of one occurring - at least in my thought process. For curiosities' sake how do you define the seperation and it's causes?

[FortunaMaximus]

The relation of the probability to the top end of the scale.

In the case of a lottery, the ratio is so huge that it becomes redundant by its orders of magnitude.

I suppose the inverse of that ratio, which returns you to the probability, is the value of faith in such a process. Even though it's non-zero, it's infinitesmially low that you can compare it to a positive/negative energy effect in the physical universe. Quantum flux?

The faith in such a process has to be imaginary, because there is no relative merit in judging its value in regards to hope.

Paradoxically, it still does have value and a relationship, just not one that can be separated and distilled into an effect that has any real value in and of its own.

[John21]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
And the definition of 'hope' being: a positive outcome.

[/ QUOTE ]

Im not sure what you mean here..are you defining "hope" as the positive outcome itself?...

so your question is "do we need faith to have a positive outcome?"

to this I would say not, in fact quite the opposite, but I don't think this is what you meant to say..please clarify

[/ QUOTE ]

Sorry. I was referring to a 'belief' in a positive outcome.

So for example, say someone was fired from his job, and then said that he believed he'll find an even better job. He has no evidence that he will find a better job, and no evidence that he won't.

We could objectively conclude that he has hope of finding a better job, but for that hope to be present within him - does it require a degree of faith, i.e. do we need faith to have hope?

[/ QUOTE ]

the problem seems to be whether we are talking about "having hope" or the action of "hoping"..

"hoping" is basically just desiring a certain outcome..I think we can desire a specific outcome whether or not we think it will actually occur with a greater probability that it actually will..

I can hope that an Ace falls on the river, but I can still accept that it will only actually happen x% of the time

"having hope" seems to be used sometimes just like "having faith"..I suppose that in this context it's not so much that you need hope to have faith, but that they are essentially meaning the same thing

[/ QUOTE ]

In another post you made the following comment:

[ QUOTE ]
If there IS a "goal" for mankind or any intelligent being, it is to destroy faith...and if there is a person to truly be hated...it is a supporter of faith

[/ QUOTE ]


So substituting your current exception to the definition of hope:
"having hope" seems to be used sometimes just like "having faith"..I suppose that in this context it's not so much that you need hope to have faith, but that they are essentially meaning the same thing

We'd get:

[ QUOTE ]
If there IS a "goal" for mankind or any intelligent being, it is to destroy HOPE...and if there is a person to truly be hated...it is a supporter of HOPE

[/ QUOTE ]

[Prodigy54321]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
And the definition of 'hope' being: a positive outcome.

[/ QUOTE ]

Im not sure what you mean here..are you defining "hope" as the positive outcome itself?...

so your question is "do we need faith to have a positive outcome?"

to this I would say not, in fact quite the opposite, but I don't think this is what you meant to say..please clarify

[/ QUOTE ]

Sorry. I was referring to a 'belief' in a positive outcome.

So for example, say someone was fired from his job, and then said that he believed he'll find an even better job. He has no evidence that he will find a better job, and no evidence that he won't.

We could objectively conclude that he has hope of finding a better job, but for that hope to be present within him - does it require a degree of faith, i.e. do we need faith to have hope?

[/ QUOTE ]

the problem seems to be whether we are talking about "having hope" or the action of "hoping"..

"hoping" is basically just desiring a certain outcome..I think we can desire a specific outcome whether or not we think it will actually occur with a greater probability that it actually will..

I can hope that an Ace falls on the river, but I can still accept that it will only actually happen x% of the time

"having hope" seems to be used sometimes just like "having faith"..I suppose that in this context it's not so much that you need hope to have faith, but that they are essentially meaning the same thing

[/ QUOTE ]

In another post you made the following comment:

[ QUOTE ]
If there IS a "goal" for mankind or any intelligent being, it is to destroy faith...and if there is a person to truly be hated...it is a supporter of faith

[/ QUOTE ]


So substituting your current exception to the definition of hope:
"having hope" seems to be used sometimes just like "having faith"..I suppose that in this context it's not so much that you need hope to have faith, but that they are essentially meaning the same thing

We'd get:

[ QUOTE ]
If there IS a "goal" for mankind or any intelligent being, it is to destroy HOPE...and if there is a person to truly be hated...it is a supporter of HOPE

[/ QUOTE ]

[/ QUOTE ]

although that seems harsh, it really isn't when you consider that actual definition of "hope" that is being used...the same definition for "faith" that I used...

I separate this meaning of hope from the other (which is what you think of when you read the quote you just changed and are shocked)..that meaning being the desire for a specific outcome...

it is my other definition of hope.."the belief that a certain outcome will occur that is not based on evidence" (the same as faith in that outcome)...that I am using in your changed quote

for any further discussion on this topic, you will have to tell me which definition of "hope" we will be using

[TomBrooks]

I would say one needs faith to have hope. But how valuable is either? Let's put it in perspectve. While hope can make one feel better temporarily, hope is a product of the mind thinking about the future. Realization cannot happen in the future, it can only occur in the present.

The present is the only time that actually exists. The future is only a concept. When we "reach" the future, it it no longer that--it becomes the present.