Ace King in crisis

[ajmargarine]

Villian is a decent player, IMO. Comments welcome.

Full Tilt Poker
No Limit Holdem Ring game
Blinds: $0.25/$0.50
6 players
Converter (http://www.neildewhurst.com/hand-converter)

Stack sizes:
UTG: $73.70
Hero: $71.65
CO: $165.70
Button: $49.25
SB: $118.35
BB: $51.50

Pre-flop: (6 players) Hero is UTG+1 with K/images/graemlins/spade.gif A/images/graemlins/spade.gif
UTG folds, <font color="#cc0000">Hero raises to $2</font>, 2 folds, SB calls, BB folds.

Flop: K/images/graemlins/club.gif 9/images/graemlins/club.gif 9/images/graemlins/diamond.gif ($4.5, 2 players)
SB checks, <font color="#cc0000">Hero bets $3.5</font>, <font color="#cc0000">SB raises to $7</font>, Hero calls.

Turn: 6/images/graemlins/diamond.gif ($18.5, 2 players)
<font color="#cc0000">SB bets $11</font>, Hero calls.

River: A/images/graemlins/club.gif ($40.5, 2 players)
<font color="#cc0000">SB bets $23</font>, Hero...

[the machine]

well if you are calling on the turn because you are still ahead then you must still be ahead. if villain is a decent player then i dont think he check min raises and leads turn with a flush draw. if you were ahead on the turn that was worthy of a call the river may be as well.

IMO i dont think we are ahead here and i think its a fold. i usually spew off on the turn as well and give up to a decent river bet as in this hand when its very possible im beat. i dunno i htink its a fold in general, but the first part of my repsonse is to get an idea from you on your turn call

[ColdSteel]

The intersting street is the turn, not the river, IMO. Like machine said, if you were ahead on the turn, youre ahead on the river. The chance that he CMR/bets here with a draw seems slim. If he CMRed the flop with a draw, he'll probably get limp when you call the raise.

That said, if there is a fold here (and I think there is sometimes) it's on the turn. There are not many weaker kings that CMR the flop.

[ajmargarine]

In my eyes his hand range is:

9x sometimes
AK sometimes
luckboxed his way into 66 once in a blue moon.
draw seems doubtful to me
some junk I beat once in a blue moon.

I can't really put him on a hand I beat. I'm sure I tie a nice portion of the time.

I don't like this hand so much. /images/graemlins/frown.gif

[the machine]

[ QUOTE ]
In my eyes his hand range is:

9x sometimes
AK sometimes
luckboxed his way into 66 once in a blue moon.
draw seems doubtful to me
some junk I beat once in a blue moon.

I can't really put him on a hand I beat. I'm sure I tie a nice portion of the time.

I don't like this hand so much. /images/graemlins/frown.gif

[/ QUOTE ]

well whats your image. i know youve been lagging it up on FT. how do you htink he views you. if he thinks you are lag i def think he reraises ak here preflop. yeah i dont like the hand much either

[ColdSteel]

OK, I'm going to man-up and commit to a line.

I think you should fold the turn.

[Chubbers]

Why not re-raise the flop? Are you behind here? If you're prepared to call an $11 turn bet why not re-raise the flop to $15. Or are you trying to keep the pot small at this point?

The flop re-raise bothers me when the board pairs and i have the blinds call.... Also another question, why exclude KK from his range? Do you think he'd re-raise PF 100% of the time with KK?

At best i think you're splitting here, i can't see you ahead.

Typically i'd fold the turn. As is I think i'd call the river getting 3 to 1.

[the machine]

nope im sorry i misread your post in microbrew. thought it said 33 VPIP not 23

so you havent been lag and if he knows this then he def has to feel he has you beat here.

i think we have to fold

[HitNRunPoster]

AJ, sorry to switch the topic, but would you mind telling us how you knew that he was a decent player? Basically did you see him show down a few times and see him do something like check through the turn with top pair, etc? Or are you just talking about his pf stats and general post flop tightness?

[pokerchap]

c/c all the way down is fine here. a turn fold is perfectly fine imo. after the check minraise we can very easily put him on a 9.

[HitNRunPoster]

Well, you need to tie:

31.5T - 23L = 0
T + L = 1
L = 1-T

31.5T - 23 + 23T = 0
54.5T = 23
T = 23/54.5
T = 42%

So I wouldn't think that you should call the river.

PF / Flop bet are good.

I don't know about turn or the flop call... which is obviously the hard part of the hand.

Also, I'm weirded out by the hand range that you gave him... are you sure that a flush isn't possible?

[kaz2107]

i think in the heat of the moment i call the turn and river but in reality i think u have to fold the river. id say u almost never win with his river bet. at worst he has AK there.

calling the turn is correct imo because he could b making another stab with 77+ as well as KJ+. but once the A hits the river he no longer leads KJ+ or 77+ thus it makes it a clear fold. that A makes it much more clear of his holdings imo and thus worthy of laying this down

[ronitonline]

He bet half the pot, I would call as you are probably ahead most of the time.
I'm assuming you ended up calling and being beat?
I think you are ahead here more then down, if he had a 9 then you put in too much money earlier, if you didnt believe he had a 9 on the flop or turn, I dont see what reason you have to give up on the river.

[HitNRunPoster]

[ QUOTE ]
AJ, sorry to switch the topic, but would you mind telling us how you knew that he was a decent player? Basically did you see him show down a few times and see him do something like check through the turn with top pair, etc? Or are you just talking about his pf stats and general post flop tightness?

[/ QUOTE ]

The reason I asked about this was that I'm curious as to what I should be paying attention to in general, how much info I need to make a decision about another player, etc.

I mean, I know "more is better" but I'm curious as to how much is enough.

[jonyy6788]

If he's a decent player what do you think is in his range that has a 9 in it? The way he played he's representing a 9 and I think this is a pretty easy turn fold. Let's see what villian has done: check/min. raise flop, bet turn/river OOP. And there's no way I'd call the river unless you really feel like he had KJ-KQ. He's telling you that he's not scared of that A (which also brought the flush).

[PoorTom]

re-raise flop. he's got KQ or worse or a mid pair quite often here. fold to push, obv.

as played, it's context dependent. but unless one of you is a huge lag i think it's a fold on the river. calling turn is fine unless he's normally very passive, many decent players will make this 'c/r flop, bet turn' move with hands you're ahead of, but rarely with a flush draw. but after the river bet i think i have to put him on trip 9s or likely a boat too often to call (with AK a possibility, but i'd have expected a bigger flop c/r).

[ajmargarine]

[ QUOTE ]
re-raise flop. he's got KQ or worse or a mid pair quite often here. fold to push, obv.


[/ QUOTE ]

Those are the hands that we want to get another bet out of.

[Art Vandalay]

Grunch:
Fold it on the river. Unless he's triple barreling or playing a weaker king, he's got you beat. I also wouldn't suggest representing the flush here. I just don't want to risk my stack on it.

[ajmargarine]

[ QUOTE ]
AJ, sorry to switch the topic, but would you mind telling us how you knew that he was a decent player? Basically did you see him show down a few times and see him do something like check through the turn with top pair, etc? Or are you just talking about his pf stats and general post flop tightness?

[/ QUOTE ]

He's not getting out of line. He's generally playing good cards. He's giving up and not paying off when it's obvious he's beat. His bet sizing is decent. He's varying his play a little bit here and there.

Basically, he's playing solid (I was with him on two tables) and not doing anything stupid.

[HitNRunPoster]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
AJ, sorry to switch the topic, but would you mind telling us how you knew that he was a decent player? Basically did you see him show down a few times and see him do something like check through the turn with top pair, etc? Or are you just talking about his pf stats and general post flop tightness?

[/ QUOTE ]

He's not getting out of line. He's generally playing good cards. He's giving up and not paying off when it's obvious he's beat. His bet sizing is decent. He's varying his play a little bit here and there.

Basically, he's playing solid (I was with him on two tables) and not doing anything stupid.

[/ QUOTE ]

That's a great response. Thanks a lot.

Do you mind if I ask roughly what you saw him do to vary his play? Was it mostly a PF thing: raising with a baby pair or a SC or something like that? Was it a PF CC vs a tag? In PL/NL Poker, it says that most of the variation between styles occurs early in a hand (pf/f) so i'm assuming that this is what you're talking about.

Thanks for your response,though.

--DAve.

[ajmargarine]

He took an OOP line of c/c, c/r into me HU when I was the PFR and he had flopped two pair. Later he c/c, led into me as the PFR again HU. And then there was this hand c/r, lead.

[kaz2107]

results?