Online poker economy + ethics

[rubix]

A lot of money is passed around in online poker everyday. If we could model the online poker economy (the flow of money between players), what would it look like? Where is the money going?

To put things more concretely, imagine that we tag a single dollar that Joe Schmo deposits and follow it around as it is wagered online - does this dollar typically "flow uphill" to the higher stakes, or is it more likely to float around the small stakes games?

Or, to look at it in reverse: suppose we retrace the steps of every dollar in winning-player-X's poker account (whether it be Phil Ivey or some guy who plays 20 small-stakes SNG's at once), back to where that dollar first entered the gambling scene. Where did it originally come from?

I'm especially interested in this question as it relates to the general question of the ethics. If I could retrace each dollar of my poker winnings back to its original depositor, and analyze the depositors' demographic (age, education level, wealth, etc.), I feel like I'd be able to think about the ethicality of poker with much greater clarity.

[FortunaMaximus]

Here's an analogy: Mark a 100 dollar bill with a inedible marker, then spend it. Wait for it to come back.

That's the scope of the problem.

It all filters upward through the levels.

There are sluices where good BR managers are concerned, there's the revenue the sites take, most of which is filtered back, but always at an edge to the site operators.

It's not a terribly challenging problem, but if you got the time, why not.

[rubix]

The 100 dollar bill example is somewhat different. I don't really care where it ends up, because I know that it generated value for me (whatever I bought with it), and it generated value to all the people it passed through. Everyone along the chain benefitted.

Poker, however, is a zero-sum game. The marked dollar in my example doesn't generate value to anybody but the person who ends up with it. So, from an ethics perspective, I think it matters to think about where the money goes.

(I'm ignoring issues of rake and of the residual utility created by people enjoying the game as they play.)

[51cards]

The 'cash flow' question is mildly interesting, but ethics? You've never won a dollar from someone who didn't part with it willingly. Why isn't that enough?

What if I told you I was a big loser at your stakes and now I really need the money back? Are you telling me you'll think about it? PM me for screen name, I need about a grand.

Not only do they part with thier money willingly, they are trying to take yours! And trying to do it with less study and effort.

Seriously not an ethics thing.

P.S. Do you think it's "unethical" to sell hamburgers at a profit to yourself? Does the answer depend on the demographic buying the hamburgers?

[51cards]

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The marked dollar in my example doesn't generate value to anybody but the person who ends up with it.


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Wrong.

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(I'm ignoring issues of rake and of the residual utility created by people enjoying the game as they play .)

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Are we alowed to disregard the utility of going to a concert? Explain the difference.

[rubix]

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The marked dollar in my example doesn't generate value to anybody but the person who ends up with it.


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Wrong.

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Maybe the residual utility created by people enjoying the game truly is non-negligible and offsets the losses they endure. Even still, just as a thought experiment, I think you can isolate a segment of the poker population that is "all business" - they play with profit as their only goal. If this segment of the population were pitted against each other, I think my assertion stands.

[ QUOTE ]

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(I'm ignoring issues of rake and of the residual utility created by people enjoying the game as they play .)

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Are we alowed to disregard the utility of going to a concert? Explain the difference.

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I'm not sure I understand your point...if I pay money to go to a concert, or to buy a hamburger, I can feel happy even knowing that the seller profited. That is because the thing that I purchased brought me value.

As far as bringing ethics into the discussion, I simply would like to develop a clearer framework with which to think about poker, and the tagged dollar illustration was the best thought experiment I could come up with. I feel like for me personally, I would feel much better about playing the game if I knew my profits were ultimately coming from millionaires that didn't mind losing versus minister's-son-turned-bank-robber college students. Maybe not everyone feels the same way - that's OK - I hope the "cash flow" thought experiment is interesting enough in its own right to discuss and chew on.

[51cards]

Ok, I guess our disconnect is in the amount of utility people get from playing. I think you got around this by invoking the "all-business" crowd. But these people shouldn't be losing money anyway. I'll grant that some are though. Think of them as unprofitable businesses. You really don't owe them anything.