Inspired by "What's the Lines"

[kurto]

I was trying to think of how to present this in a different way. A few days ago someone posted something asking what a villains line was. I thought the way the villain played the hand was 'by the book' though, as I recall, there wasn't a lot of people coming to that conclusion. But it always fascinates me testing hand reading.

In this hand, I believe both players are probably playing their hands correctly. I think its interesting to see as outside observers if we can correctly guess what each person is playing. Let's have people put each person on a range of hands. (I debated revealing one side but I thought this might be an interesting experiment.) This isn't a clue but I thought it is important to note that either player's decisions are probably influenced by the fact that its a blind battle. Both players stats are between TPA and Rockish.

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, $0.50 BB (7 handed) Hand History Converter Tool (http://poker-tools.flopturnriver.com/Hand-Converter.php) from FlopTurnRiver.com (http://www.flopturnriver.com) (Format: 2+2 Forums)

saw flop|<font color="#C00000">saw showdown</font>

MP1 ($50)
MP2 ($42.35)
CO ($25.50)
Button ($31.45)
<font color="#C00000">SB ($36.90)</font>
<font color="#C00000">BB ($49.25)</font>
UTG ($28.25)

Preflop:
<font color="#666666">5 folds</font>, <font color="#CC3333">SB raises to $1.5</font>, <font color="#CC3333">BB raises to $4</font>, SB calls $2.50.

Flop: ($8) J/images/graemlins/heart.gif, 7/images/graemlins/club.gif, 4/images/graemlins/spade.gif <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">SB bets $5</font>, BB calls $5.

Turn: ($18) 6/images/graemlins/heart.gif <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">SB bets $8</font>, <font color="#CC3333">BB raises to $20.5</font>, SB calls $12.50.

River: ($59) 4/images/graemlins/heart.gif <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">SB bets $7.4 (All-In)</font>, BB calls $7.40.

Final Pot: $73.80

[lippy]

BB = AA, KK, QQ, AhKh... My Best guess is QQ

SB = 66-JJ, I guess 77

[redCashion]

SB: AhKh
BB: 77

[redCashion]

And SB is glad he wasn't deeper.

[Thrahl]

BB- JJ
SB- KhQh

[kaz2107]

BB- AK of hearts JJ+
SB- QQ+, AJ, and AK of hearts

if i made an exact guess i would say BB had JJ and SB had AK of hearts

[Leviathan101]

If I had to pick one hand

SB - JJ
BB - KK

[Shaddux]

[ QUOTE ]
If I had to pick one hand

SB - JJ
BB - KK

[/ QUOTE ]

[gir]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
If I had to pick one hand

SB - JJ
BB - KK

[/ QUOTE ]

[/ QUOTE ]

Those make sense...although if that's the case, I don't like the SB not pushing the turn for the extra $8.

SB - AhKh
BB - JcJs

AK explains the call and not the push on the turn. JJ would have pushed.

[kurto]

Its interesting to me that some people put the BB and SB with the opposite hands.

There were some winners:
SB raises PF with KK
BB reraise PF with JJ

SB is glad he wasn't deeper!

To me, this brings an interesting question. Should the SB lose his stack here? (with his current stack? What if he has a full buyin?)

I think its tougher that its a blind on blind situation. Its also 2 tight players.

To me, the most 'obvious' line is the JJ line. Textbook flopped set-- Smoothcall flop, raise on the turn. I guess the question I always wonder is how reliable do we take that line to represent a set or other monster?

I think for anyone who put the SB on AK... I would question if most TPA or Rock players with AK are going to (1) lead the flop after being reraised PF (2) THEN call a reraise on the turn? (I suppose specifically A /images/graemlins/heart.gifK /images/graemlins/heart.gif might... though I still think a tight player c/c's here with only one street to come)

[kaz2107]

[ QUOTE ]
Its interesting to me that some people put the BB and SB with the opposite hands.

There were some winners:
SB raises PF with KK
BB reraise PF with JJ

SB is glad he wasn't deeper!

To me, this brings an interesting question. Should the SB lose his stack here? (with his current stack? What if he has a full buyin?)

I think its tougher that its a blind on blind situation. Its also 2 tight players.

To me, the most 'obvious' line is the JJ line. Textbook flopped set-- Smoothcall flop, raise on the turn. I guess the question I always wonder is how reliable do we take that line to represent a set or other monster?

I think for anyone who put the SB on AK... I would question if most TPA or Rock players with AK are going to (1) lead the flop after being reraised PF (2) THEN call a reraise on the turn? (I suppose specifically A /images/graemlins/heart.gifK /images/graemlins/heart.gif might... though I still think a tight player c/c's here with only one street to come)

[/ QUOTE ]

yea i dont think BB should get stacked here which is why i didnt put him on QQ+ here. it just looks so obv that SB has set here. assuming he has any accurate read here this seems like a hand that should b gotten away from

[Shaddux]

Yeah I got the hands backwards.

If I were SB, I'm reraising pf.

[ QUOTE ]
To me, the most 'obvious' line is the JJ line. Textbook flopped set-- Smoothcall flop, raise on the turn. I guess the question I always wonder is how reliable do we take that line to represent a set or other monster?

[/ QUOTE ]Raising the turn is like flipping their hand over IMO

[RAHZero]

[ QUOTE ]
Its interesting to me that some people put the BB and SB with the opposite hands.

There were some winners:
SB raises PF with KK
BB reraise PF with JJ

SB is glad he wasn't deeper!

To me, this brings an interesting question. Should the SB lose his stack here? (with his current stack? What if he has a full buyin?)

I think its tougher that its a blind on blind situation. Its also 2 tight players.

To me, the most 'obvious' line is the JJ line. Textbook flopped set-- Smoothcall flop, raise on the turn. I guess the question I always wonder is how reliable do we take that line to represent a set or other monster?

I think for anyone who put the SB on AK... I would question if most TPA or Rock players with AK are going to (1) lead the flop after being reraised PF (2) THEN call a reraise on the turn? (I suppose specifically A /images/graemlins/heart.gifK /images/graemlins/heart.gif might... though I still think a tight player c/c's here with only one street to come)

[/ QUOTE ]

With his stack, SB should be almost always be pushing over the RR PF. If deeper, he still should probably be 4-betting in a SB vs. BB battle.

[jgunnip]

Oh, I can play this game too!! both players tag/rockish with sb being the less tight of the two.


PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, $0.50 BB (4 handed) Hand History Converter Tool (http://poker-tools.flopturnriver.com/Hand-Converter.php) from FlopTurnRiver.com (http://www.flopturnriver.com) (Format: 2+2 Forums)

saw flop|<font color="#C00000">saw showdown</font>

UTG ($42.25)
Button ($41.05)
<font color="#C00000">SB ($115.35)</font>
<font color="#C00000">BB ($43.55)</font>

Preflop:
<font color="#666666">2 folds</font>, <font color="#CC3333">SB raises to $2.5</font>, BB calls $2.

Flop: ($5) Q/images/graemlins/spade.gif, 8/images/graemlins/spade.gif, 5/images/graemlins/diamond.gif <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">SB bets $4</font>, BB calls $4.

Turn: ($13) 8/images/graemlins/club.gif <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">SB bets $9</font>, BB calls $9.

River: ($31) 9/images/graemlins/club.gif <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">SB bets $15</font>, <font color="#CC3333">BB raises to $28.05</font>, SB calls $13.05.

Final Pot: $87.10

[AJGibson]

What does tag/rockish mean?

[Sir Winalot]

[ QUOTE ]
What does tag/rockish mean?

[/ QUOTE ]
8/6/2 or similar. Means very tight.

[AJGibson]

tag = tight agressive, rock = tight passive
8/6/2 = Extremely tight nit

[kazana]

SB's KK comes as a surprise to me.
I'd expect him to push that preflop. But maybe that's where the passiveness kicks in.

I had SB on AQh, A7h, A4h, or QQ. AKh is also an option, but I would've expected a push pf then, too.

As for BB, IMO, he could have had any overpair, maybe even AJ the way he played it. I wouldn't necessarily expect 77 or 44 to be good enough for a passive to reraise pf.

The problem with blind battles is, that very often even the most predictable players seem to go balistic with air.

[kurto]

[ QUOTE ]
Raising the turn is like flipping their hand over IMO


[/ QUOTE ]

I agree. And yet (I'm the one with the jacks), you get paid off with this line against 90% of opponents.

[kurto]

[ QUOTE ]
SB's KK comes as a surprise to me.
I'd expect him to push that preflop. But maybe that's where the passiveness kicks in.

I had SB on AQh, A7h, A4h, or QQ. AKh is also an option, but I would've expected a push pf then, too.

As for BB, IMO, he could have had any overpair, maybe even AJ the way he played it. I wouldn't necessarily expect 77 or 44 to be good enough for a passive to reraise pf.

The problem with blind battles is, that very often even the most predictable players seem to go balistic with air.

[/ QUOTE ]

I agree that blind battles confuse the issue. I'm the one with jacks in this hand and I don't usually reraise a tight player with jacks. The fact that he was raising me in a blind hand caused me to give more value to my jacks.

I do find it odd that the player didn't reraise with the kings. I'm not sure if this guy never 3 bets or if he thought he was slowplaying me.

[ QUOTE ]
I had SB on AQh, A7h, A4h, or QQ. AKh is also an option, but I would've expected a push pf then, too.


[/ QUOTE ]

I understand AQ, QQ or AK... really any pocket pair and any Ace-broadway. I know I didn't provide specific numbers but being a rock who's been slowly loosening up and who takes a lot of notes... I can tell you that in my experience most TPA or rocks don't raise with A7 or A4s. And they're not the kind of players who steal blinds a lot.

I think SBs overpair is consistant with a TPA... raise PF... and betting his overpair on all 3 streets. I am a little surprised the player never considered he was beat considering the reraise pf... but perhaps he gave me less credit it being a blind battle.

[kurto]

I have to admit I don't play shorthand so I don't know how much that changes the hand range of a tight player calling a pf raise.

If BB is loose and/or a calling station, I would, for instance, consider 45os the way the hand went down. But would a tight player shorthand call a raise with that? And would he call the turn for nearly a psb not getting the odds?

I'm making my guesses as a full ring player so I'm probably too narrow-
SB has A /images/graemlins/spade.gifx /images/graemlins/spade.gif (x=broadway) or a mid pp.
BB has AQ.

SBs half pot bet on the river is him giving up.

[Petter]

It could be AQ, TT-JJ, KK - AA for the SB
and 55, 88, A8, JT/images/graemlins/spade.gif, 67/images/graemlins/spade.gif for the BB.