Postflop Bet Sizing

[EasilyConfused]

Yesterday I posted this hand:

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, $0.50 BB (9 handed) Hand History Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: 2+2 Forums)

CO ($53.55)
Hero ($56.05)
SB ($49)
BB ($45.30)
UTG ($10.75)
UTG+1 ($13)
MP1 ($50)
MP2 ($23.75)
MP3 ($35.05)

Preflop: Hero is Button with 9h, 8h.
4 folds, MP3 calls $0.50, CO calls $0.50, Hero calls $0.50, 1 fold, BB checks.

Flop: ($2.25) Ah, Kh, 7h (4 players)
BB checks, MP3 checks, CO checks, Hero bets $1.5, BB folds, MP3 calls $1.50, CO folds.

Turn: ($5.25) 4c (2 players)
MP3 checks, Hero bets $3.5, MP3 folds.

Final Pot: $8.75

I received a lot of advice along the lines of "pot the flop." I find that when I post hands here, I'm usually told to bet bigger on the flop. So here's my question:

I continuation bet the flop at least 90% of the time. When I c-bet with air, I don't bet the pot. I find that betting 2/3 to 3/4, and sometimes even 1/2, usually does the job.

So if I have a good hand, shouldn't I lead about the same amount postflop as when I have a bad hand? If I'm always potting my good hands & 2/3 betting my bad ones, won't people catch on?

Am I giving my NL 50 opponents too much credit? Or do you guys just pot bet all your hands with nothing on the flop?

[Sir Winalot]

[ QUOTE ]
I'm usually told to bet bigger on flop and any other street .

[/ QUOTE ]
1. Makes the pot bigger when you're ahead
2. Gives opponents worse odds

I think there was a thread about why we bet, I think there's many more reasons, but from the top of my head these are the most important.

[EasilyConfused]

I understand that when you're ahead you want to get as much money in as possible. What I'm asking is whether there's enough value in disguising your c-bets to scale back your bet a bit when you have a good hand on the flop.

[ymu]

When you have a good made hand, you need to bet enough to overcharge anything that might outdraw you, but you do want draws to overpay and second best hands to call, so don't over do it. Betting pot is about right when there is a possible flush draw. In the example above, Ah will pay plenty to draw, and you won't be paying his implied odds off if another heart falls, so get the money in early.

Your c-bets should be the same size as your value bets would be on the same flop (ie as much as you would value bet with TPTK, AA or a set on that flop - more if it's drawy, less if it's safe looking), or your opponents will soon pick up on what a weak bet means and start raising you with air when they would have folded to a bigger bet.

Against aware opponents, if you c-bet for less you need to value bet for less, which is silly because you get less value on your real hands and give draws better odds to beat you. If you increase the size of your c-bets you'll gain a bit of FE and some value on your real hands, so it's an investment rather than spew.

[ymu]

[ QUOTE ]
I understand that when you're ahead you want to get as much money in as possible. What I'm asking is whether there's enough value in disguising your c-bets to scale back your bet a bit when you have a good hand on the flop.

[/ QUOTE ]
If that's the question, it's much better to do it the other way around - scale up your c-bets to disguise your value bets.

[subzero]

[ QUOTE ]
So if I have a good hand, shouldn't I lead about the same amount postflop as when I have a bad hand? If I'm always potting my good hands & 2/3 betting my bad ones, won't people catch on?

[/ QUOTE ]
Do not adjust your cbet sizes based on the strength of your hand. You'll be too easy to read if you do. Instead, adjust your cbets to the texture of the flop and tendencies of your opponents. My cbets are anywhere from 1/2 to full pot. On a dry flop, I'll cbet 1/2 pot. On a draw-heavy flop like K/images/graemlins/club.gif7/images/graemlins/heart.gif8/images/graemlins/heart.gif, I'll cbet 3/4 or full pot (to cut down the odds). For some opponents, a 1/2 pot cbet is enough to get them to fold. For others, you might need to pot it.

Just don't base your cbets on what hand you flop (set, TPTK, or nothing at all).

[EasilyConfused]

Subzero -- thanks. That sort of sizing is mostly what I try to do, though with a made flush or straight on drawy flops I sometimes drop down to 2/3. I should probably knock that off.

ymu -- so what sort of factors influence your bet sizing?

[ymu]

[ QUOTE ]
ymu -- so what sort of factors influence your bet sizing?

[/ QUOTE ]

The texture of the flop, number of opponents and who the opponents are.

I'm no expert, but this is what I do:

I rarely bet/raise much less than full pot on the flop, but I'm trying to change this as I think I'm losing some value with my better hands on safer boards. If there's a flush draw or a very likely straight draw, or I have a very vulnerable hand like bottom 2 pair - especially with multiple opponents - it's always pot. I rarely bet/raise as little as 75% pot on the flop and almost never less.

On the turn, the same considerations apply. Now, it depends on what I think they called the flop with and what the turn card did for my hand/their range. If I think they're still drawing or calling down with a weaker hand, I'll bet at least 75% of the pot - full pot if a combo draw is possible. At this point it becomes very opponent dependent - if they will overpay for a draw or get too attached to TPNK I'll charge them more - if they're capable of folding a worse hand or a draw at this point I might make it a bit cheaper (but rarely less than 75% pot).

[carnivalhobo]

vary bet sizing with board texture, not hand strength. Your opponent can read the board too, and so you arent giving anything up by changing bet size based on shared info. At the micros i used to cbet pot -1or2 bb's, as you move up you can decrease the size of some of these bets when people start floating/bluffraising with higher frequency. In a limped pot im almost always betting full pot, especially with a vulnerable but strong hand like you posted.

[Antinome]

I can't believe you get away with making 1/2 sized cbets *ever* at 50NL. When I try that all of a sudden I'm plagued with floaters. I expect you play pretty tight and people 'respect your raises' if those smaller cbets are really working out for you. And if you are playing tight, you should really be betting on the high side, because your hands are way better on average than your opponents' hands. You don't want to build pots like a loose-small-ball player and play the same number of hands as a TAG.

[bmk67]

[ QUOTE ]

I continuation bet the flop at least 90% of the time. When I c-bet with air, I don't bet the pot. I find that betting 2/3 to 3/4, and sometimes even 1/2, usually does the job.

So if I have a good hand, shouldn't I lead about the same amount postflop as when I have a bad hand? If I'm always potting my good hands & 2/3 betting my bad ones, won't people catch on?


[/ QUOTE ]

Here's what I do.

When heads up, I base the size of my flop bets on the texture of the flop, whether I hit it or not (with unknown villians).

If it's a dry flop (i.e. one or no broadway cards, no likely straight or flush draws), I bet about half the pot. You don't need to protect your hands from draws if there are no draws, right?

If it's a very drawy board (potential straight and flush draws), I pot it. I treat scary broadway boards about the same if i decide to c-bet it at all.

If there's a possible draw (straight or flush, but not both), I usually bet about 2/3-3/4 pot.

If I have a read on a particular villian, I will modify this strategy to suit.

[EasilyConfused]

Antinome, to answer your question, I don't have tracking software so I can't give you VPIP, but I usually see about 20% of the flops, which I suppose puts me in the tight category at 50 NL. I only bet 1/2 pot if the board is something like K-7-2 rainbow. I find it works about as often on a dry board as a 2/3 or 3/4 bet.

I almost never bet the whole pot, though I sometimes get very close to it with an overpair like JJ or a flop with a ton of draws.

Although as I said before, I tend to scale down a bit with a good made hand, which I should stop doing.