Hourly rate

[Wdanger]

Hello all,

I have just joined the forum, although been reading for a while now, and am looking forward to being a regular poster.

I have a question regarding hourly rates at the micro limits. I play mainly on the .05 / .10 NL tables, one at a time so far, and was wondering what a good hourly rate in $ might be consdered as being.

Also is hourly rate a useful way of determining ability etc.

I look forward to your responses.

All the best.

[Rochus]

10 to 20PTbb/100 should be easily possible playing one table on 10NL (I'm running 16ptbb/100 over 12k hands 2 tabling but still building my bankroll to play 25NL.. I know that's weak but I just want to be confident about my roll :P) so everywhere between 2$ and 4$ per hour playing 1 table should be ok.

[AJGibson]

Usually you look at the amount won in BB/100 hands, you can then convert this to $/h. From the FAQ:-

[ QUOTE ]
Q: What's a sustainable winrate for this game?

A: I believe the average winrate sustained by fairly good players is 7-8PTBB/100. Click here (http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/showflat.php?Cat=&Board=ssplnlpoker&Number=2640366 &Forum=f25) for a winrate thread. Aiming for anything above 0 is recommended.

[/ QUOTE ]

Hourly rate does not take into account the number of tables you play on, and the average hands/hour on your particular site. BB/100 is therefore a better indication of how well you've been running, and over a big sample size will indicate how good you are.

[Reef]

micro limits are Not for making money, but rather for learning the game

/rant

[kabouter]

Just make sure you are above like 2/100bb, then you are ok /images/graemlins/wink.gif if you can sustain something like that while moving up, even better.
At 10nl I got something like 13/100bb

[Downrock]

Just to be sure, as I am a NL noob, a PTBB at 10NL with 0.10 Big Blind would be 20 cents? or 10 cents?

[kazana]

PTBB ("big bets") = 2 big blinds.

So, 20 cents in your example.

[Wolfram]

[ QUOTE ]
micro limits are Not for making money, but rather for learning the game
/rant

[/ QUOTE ]
You should read the OP's post before starting a rant. He's not asking how to make the most money.

He's asking how he can measure how good his play is, by comparing his rate with other winning players. This is indeed an effort to get better (i.e. learning the game)

You also forgot the third reason why we play µ-limits, which is building a roll.

[kabouter]

maybe it's a good idea to make a monthly micronl charts topic, so you can see how others micro players are doing compared to yourself?

[Wdanger]

Well thanks all for your replies. Most enlightening.

And you are correct Wolfram I am not asking how to make the most money, rather how best to guage my progress while i build a roll. And i am guessing that by starting off measuring progress at the micros you can see how the different limits compare as you move up.

[kabouter]

Just curious, what 100/bb ratio are you at now?

[BWillie]

[ QUOTE ]
10 to 20PTbb/100 should be easily possible playing one table on 10NL (I'm running 16ptbb/100 over 12k hands 2 tabling but still building my bankroll to play 25NL.. I know that's weak but I just want to be confident about my roll :P) so everywhere between 2$ and 4$ per hour playing 1 table should be ok.

[/ QUOTE ]

Even at that low of tables, isn't 16ptbb/100 hands just a little bit out of reach for the long haul? That just seems like alot to me considering that great players at NL 100 and 200 are at about 6-7ptbb/100 hands.

[netstorm]

there's a huge difference between 10NL and 200NL.

at 100-200 NL people start to get more aggressive, and there's a lot less fishy players. at 10NL, you can bet your ass on it that most, if not all the people at your table are just getting their feet wet in NL holdem, and probably have never about poker, be it a pokerbook or a pokerforum. Most people just now the rules and hand values, and thats it.

Most people at $100nl and $200nl have a basic idea what poker is about, so being able to sustain 6-7ptbb/100 over a large sample size would be considered very good.

EDIT: most people at $100nl/$200nl who post here on 2p2 are usually multitabling, and therefore have less specific reads on people, whereas 1 tabling = great read = higher winrate.

[the machine]

over the past 17 hours im running at 1.17$ per hour at the foxwoods 1-2 NL game which is roughly .75 PTBB/100.

woot woot

im spending more on gas then im making an hour

and i think this thread can be locked

[Antinome]

You've got to do 10PTBB/100 at that game just to beat the time collection, assuming 25/hph, 10$/hour, 2$BB.

... I would have ended up down if I didn't drive a Mini.

[carnivalhobo]

the problem with a win rate at micro NL is your play should be improving and you should be moving up levels far faster than you could get a large enough sample to determine winrate, also it should be increasing as you learn the game.

[kabouter]

[ QUOTE ]
over the past 17 hours im running at 1.17$ per hour at the foxwoods 1-2 NL game which is roughly .75 PTBB/100.

woot woot

im spending more on gas then im making an hour

and i think this thread can be locked

[/ QUOTE ]

Lol come to 10nl you'll make more/hour

[EMc]

[ QUOTE ]

and i think this thread can be locked

[/ QUOTE ]

Ill leave this open for now, as there really hanst been a good w/r discussion in uNL. Future threads will be locked.

[flowerizzle]

currently building a roll out of 50 bucks at one site and im at ~11 ptbb/100 @ nl10(~7,5khands so no real sample but hey its nl10...). without some 1-2 outers,misclicks and stupid calls(maybe shouldnt 8 table with 7+beers in me...) it would be higher tho.

so if ur a decent tag,lag or nutpeddler ~10ptbb should be easily possible.

[Wdanger]

At the moment, for a very small sample size, 19 hours, I am at a rate of 2bb/100. This is taking into account the $32 tilt off i had in one session. Since then i have adjusted and the last six sessions have been + results so am clawing my way back up. I am new to the cash games as have previousley played MTT or SNG's. The bankroll is in good shape having built it up to $700 from $10 playing MTT / SNG at the low limits. But I am keen to develop my cash game, thus focusing on that. I will review my progress further after 100 hours playing.

[CaucasianAsian29]

[ QUOTE ]
micro limits are Not for making money, but rather for learning the game

/rant

[/ QUOTE ]
pretty much true(I'm not at your level), but it's alot better for me(and the average college student) to grind Nl$50 for $30-50/hour than waiting tables or any other job I could get.

[kabouter]

still seems like a good idea to post some graphs at the end of the month how we micro players are doing.
And I consider playing at 50nl something completely different then playing at 10nl, if I would end this month good I would be like +$200, so it's not enough to cover all my costs /images/graemlins/smile.gif

[Wdanger]

Hi Kabouter,

The idea of posting graphs for comparison and discussion is a good one. I agree that it should be like for like comparisons, in terms of level played at to make it meaningful. However, I dont use poker tracker or similar but have my own spreadsheet that i have made, so it might be difficult for me to post a graph, unless i get some time to sit and work something out with the excel.

[CaucasianAsian29]

[ QUOTE ]
Hi Kabouter,

The idea of posting graphs for comparison and discussion is a good one. I agree that it should be like for like comparisons, in terms of level played at to make it meaningful. However, I dont use poker tracker or similar but have my own spreadsheet that i have made, so it might be difficult for me to post a graph, unless i get some time to sit and work something out with the excel.

[/ QUOTE ]
Poker Tracker will be one of the best investments you can make and it will pay for it self many times over long term. Also at pokerpatterns.com you can download free software that works w/ poker tracker to give you graphs.
GL!!

[Walleth]

[ QUOTE ]

Poker Tracker will be one of the best investments you can make and it will pay for it self many times over long term. Also at pokerpatterns.com you can download free software that works w/ poker tracker to give you graphs.
GL!!

[/ QUOTE ]

Not sure if its okay to ask this but will do.

Is there any software like pokertracker that will work on the BossMedia circuit? Specifically Celebpoker.

Thanks!

[Pokey]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
micro limits are Not for making money, but rather for learning the game
/rant

[/ QUOTE ]
You should read the OP's post before starting a rant. He's not asking how to make the most money.

He's asking how he can measure how good his play is, by comparing his rate with other winning players. This is indeed an effort to get better (i.e. learning the game)


[/ QUOTE ]

This is dangerously backwards thinking, because winrate and skill rate are only related to each other in the very long run. If I play 5000 hands and hit every suckout, my winrate could be astronomical even though I got my money in while behind every time. If I play 5000 hands and my OPPONENTS hit every suckout, my winrate could be negative even though I got my money in while ahead every time. If I equated winrate with skill my conclusions would be completely backwards, and I'd actually undermine my own progress as a poker player.

Don't judge your skill based off PTBB/100 -- it's a horrible measure. Instead, judge your skill based off your play and your understanding of other people's play. If you post hands and respected posters say "yup, I'd play it exactly the same way," that says you're making good progress. If you post hands and respected posters say "OMG what the heck were you THINKING??" that says you're not there yet. Read the hand threads, read the theory threads, post your own questionable hands, participate in all threads, and grow as a player. Winrate will take care of itself.

[ QUOTE ]

You also forgot the third reason why we play µ-limits, which is building a roll.

[/ QUOTE ]

Bankrolls build far faster than skill rates; the binding constraint for moving up will rarely be your roll. Similarly, most starting players who move when their bankroll allows it find themselves in deep doodoo down the road as they realize their progress through the stakes has dramatically outpaced their progress as a player.

When you're completely ready to move up your bankroll will probably be ready for you to do so. Concentrate on building experience and skills; the bankroll will follow.

[kabouter]

[ QUOTE ]
Hi Kabouter,

The idea of posting graphs for comparison and discussion is a good one. I agree that it should be like for like comparisons, in terms of level played at to make it meaningful. However, I dont use poker tracker or similar but have my own spreadsheet that i have made, so it might be difficult for me to post a graph, unless i get some time to sit and work something out with the excel.

[/ QUOTE ]

We can just post our hands/time/bb earned, graphs would be the best though, but if a spreadsheet is all you got it's good too. But it just seems like a good idea to see where you are at, cause in bbv it's no use comparing yourself to someone who plays high stakes poker and earns 100k+ a month.

[dashman]

I just finished my first 11k hands at stars. I have been 10 tabling most of the way and im up $266 over ~ 12 hours which~$22/hour playing .10/.25($25).