Full Ring vs 6-Max

[redCashion]

I looked for a thread on this topic, and didn't find one. Obviously in 6-max you have to be more agressive and your standards for hands has to go down some. I'm finding it a more enjoyable way to play since you stay so much more active than in full ring. But I assume there is a great deal more variance playing 6-max.

Any thoughts or advice?

[Yaboosh]

You get to play more hands profitably with the bad players.

[Leviathan101]

I can't beat 6 max cause I turn into an uncontrolable bluffing maniac. Therefore I play full ring mostly.

I think 6 max is better for getting action. The players seem to be willing to felt a lot more hands in 6 max. However when I play on Full Tilt there seem to be a LOT of players who play short stacked 6 max. It makes it hard for me to play against the much deeper stacked bad players. The greatest thing about 6 max though, is the sheer number of shots at their stack while being heads up. No interference.

I like full ring, cause I like small ball play. And I'm using it to practice playing tighter.

[gir]

You're using full-ring to practice playing tighter? Sadly enough, when I tried that, it didn't work. Variance killed me and people called with everything...so I started raising with everything. In any case, I've started playing 10 person Sit and Go's to tighten myself up...Although there's a lot of math, so if you want to try that, learn how to play them early...It's a whole new fun and great game.

[redCashion]

A few questions for 6-maxers, what are your standards like for completing? Will you call more raises with easily dominated hands like KJo? Will you limp or raise with any Ace?

[sakrei]

red i have the same kind of questions, but I think this is too big of a topic to answer in just one post. i have been playing 1 25NL 6max table lately to try to get a hang of things. I try to raise in position when folded to me and try to outplay opponents on the flop, but so far I have not had very good results /images/graemlins/frown.gif.

[Wolfram]

[ QUOTE ]
and people called with everything...so I started raising with everything

[/ QUOTE ]
Lol. You did the exact opposite of what you should have been doing.

[ QUOTE ]
A few questions for 6-maxers, what are your standards like for completing?

[/ QUOTE ]
I complete pretty loose, but generally it's not that profitable to complete with total junk like J2o or 25s. If you hit it big, your position makes it harder to extract (or stack) your opponent, so only do that if you your reads tell you to.

[ QUOTE ]
Will you call more raises with easily dominated hands like KJo?

[/ QUOTE ]
No.

[ QUOTE ]
Will you limp or raise with any Ace?

[/ QUOTE ]
No. I raise ATo+/Axs from most positions except when there is a total maniac or calling station behind you that will have position if he calls. I don't like limping and will never open limp in 6max. Sometimes limp behind with suited Aces with a kicker lower than ten.

[tubasteve]

[ QUOTE ]
I looked for a thread on this topic, and didn't find one. Obviously in 6-max you have to be more agressive and your standards for hands has to go down some. I'm finding it a more enjoyable way to play since you stay so much more active than in full ring. But I assume there is a great deal more variance playing 6-max.

Any thoughts or advice?

[/ QUOTE ]

you pretty much summed it up already!

[redCashion]

Thanks guys, I've had good success getting people to ride deep into a hand with some subpar holdings so far so I like the increased action that 6-max seems to bring.

One other question about completing, and this is something that I've wondered in full ring too. If you hold a marginal hand like say J9o, is it better to complete vs 2 limpers because you will face less resistance, or 6 limpers for the increased pot odds. The obvious answer would be you want to be in there vs 6 limpers but with a hand that rarely hits it big, sometimes I think it's better to have fewer opponents since so many of those pots are not fought very hard over and can be easy to pick up.

[kazana]

[ QUOTE ]
One other question about completing, and this is something that I've wondered in full ring too. If you hold a marginal hand like say J9o, is it better to complete vs 2 limpers because you will face less resistance, or 6 limpers for the increased pot odds. The obvious answer would be you want to be in there vs 6 limpers but with a hand that rarely hits it big, sometimes I think it's better to have fewer opponents since so many of those pots are not fought very hard over and can be easy to pick up.

[/ QUOTE ]
First off, and I believe this can't be emphasized enough: Preflop pot odds mean squat in NLHE. The only exception being when you're committing a substantial part of your stack preflop.
Remember it. Paste it all over your screen. Get a tattoo. Do anything, but remember that.

When I first jumped into 6-max I was pretty scared. I've always been a rather timid player and did really well at full ring, I just couldn't imagine that I'd be able to do better at 6-max where aggression is so much more important.
So, when I started out I played my FR nit style game (some 15/8/1.2 or similar) and did VERY well. Only gradually, I started to open up my ranges in late position and increasing aggression - and as a matter of fact I'm still busy opening up to this day.
This is a slow process, and the more confident I feel about my postflop abilities, the more I'll open up.

If you want to complete J9o, it's not that important how many players have limped in before you. It is far more important which players are in the pot, how likely will it be raised behind you and what is your position on those players.
You could even play J9o profitably by cold calling Donky McStackoff's preflop raise as long as you've got great position and know you'll make less mistakes than him postflop.

Just my 2 cents.

[Wolfram]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
One other question about completing, and this is something that I've wondered in full ring too. If you hold a marginal hand like say J9o, is it better to complete vs 2 limpers because you will face less resistance, or 6 limpers for the increased pot odds. The obvious answer would be you want to be in there vs 6 limpers but with a hand that rarely hits it big, sometimes I think it's better to have fewer opponents since so many of those pots are not fought very hard over and can be easy to pick up.

[/ QUOTE ]
First off, and I believe this can't be emphasized enough: Preflop pot odds mean squat in NLHE. The only exception being when you're committing a substantial part of your stack preflop.
Remember it. Paste it all over your screen. Get a tattoo. Do anything, but remember that.

[/ QUOTE ]
This is simply not true. I understand that NLHE is all about implied odds, but pot odds don't just go out the window. Any HE hand has a mathematical expectation associated with it, and the weaker your hand is preflop the better price you want to call with it.

To OP: The reason you wan't more people to come in when you are holding J9o in the SB is because you aren't hoping for a flop of J-x-x and winning a small pot (Your hand is to marginal to play it aggressively, and you have the worst position). You are hoping to make a very strong hand (preferably the nut straight, but top 2 pair can work as well) and having someone else make a good second-best hand.

Remeber the 6max mantra: position, implied odds and aggression are key. And don't play to loose at µNL. It's not the maximal EV way of playing.

[kazana]

[ QUOTE ]
This is simply not true. I understand that NLHE is all about implied odds, but pot odds don't just go out the window. Any HE hand has a mathematical expectation associated with it, and the weaker your hand is preflop the better price you want to call with it.

[/ QUOTE ]
Now this is interesting that you mention mathematical expectation and only a few words later you claim he'd rather have more limpers.

Run your mathematical J9o expectations vs random cards (or any reasonable range) for, say, two scenarios: HU and vs 5 villains.
Then compare that to your pot odds and implied odds. I'd be surprised if pot odds would have any noticeable impact.

I'd do it myself, but I don't have pokerstove at work.

[Wolfram]

I'm not sure what you want me to do. I'd just like to point out that I'm talking about EV, not win%.

The mathematical expection of J9o does not go down with an increased no. of opponents holding random hands (at least I think so). Your chances of winning the pot go down, but the pot size goes up.

Please correct me if I'm wrong. I'm not that good with pokerstove.

[subzero]

Here's a good post about 6-max vs. full-ring. I used to play strictly full-ring. Then I saw how profitable 6-max was. It also helped me improve my full-ring play.

link (http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/showthreaded.php?Cat=0&Board=micro&Number=2536762& fpart=&PHPSESSID=)

[Perk76]

There are so many ways to play at 6max, and I think thats what makes it fun. Seems like full ring can get boring. The following are some thoughts of mine regarding 6max, and are just thoughts, not definate way to play each table, since all tables are different.

I like 6max tables with tight players to my right, and 2 loose players to my left when I want to play loose (for my standards) and aggressive. Open raise in position non stop and kill people that will continue to cold call everything, thinking that they need to play more hands. Once you get a good table, you should be able to pound on 1 or 2 players specifically. You can let up with resistance.

<--normally around 22% hands played at dangerous tables, but at the right table it is quite possible to LAG it up to 40% and tear up the table. When Lagging it up, my raising standards: A10+ if using aces. All kinds of hands suited and connected in the middle of the deck. I fold ace rags. I want my hand to be transparent and easy to fold if there is resistance. A ragged ace can get you into a larger hand than you need. Would rather get caught raising 6s7s than As7s. Even playing LAG at 40%, you will be lower than the fish you are targeting.

<--dont complete anyone elses raises though with KJ type hands as was asked. I normally only complete pp's. If I a am damn sure a TAG will sack off if i hit 2 pair or something, I might call a raise with some garbage. Yesterday I think I cold called 2 times in a 250 hand session.

You can make alot of cash at 6max tables from:
1. Beginning players thinking that less players=easier, good place to start.
2. Players playing more hands.
3. Players feeling like they have to 'open' up their game since its 6max.
4. Alot more cold calling, since people thing less likely to have monster hand compared to full ring raises.

[redCashion]

Ya, I found action at the 6-max tables that I played last night that I haven't seen since the days of playing $10 full ring. Really, having people call down BIG bets to the river with 2nd or 3rd pair is a kind of nirvana for me. So glad to be done with the nitfest full ring tables that I've been playing on Stars.

I also feel that I saw more flops and faced more decisions in one night of sessions than I have in weeks of full ring. I think it's already been great for me game. of course, the decisions are much tougher, but that's part of what makes it fun.

Anyway, thanks for all the advice, and especially the great link from subzero.