Mixed feelings about playing with a HUD

[netstorm]

This particular subject has been bugging me for quite some time.
Ever since I switched sites from party to a non-PT supported site, I am no longer able to use PAHUD. I have also switched from 6max to full ring, and am now playing 8 tables instead of 4 or 6 tables of 6max. However, I am now able to sustain a higher winrate (11 ptbb/100 @ $50nl), yet, I am no longer using PAHUD. Could it be that I am now no longer giving to much value to PT stats?
Or would it be that playing 20k hands at 6max has sharpened my skills enough so that I am now a better full ring player?

Has anyone else noticed any differences when playing with or without a HUD?

I have began to make a lot more notes on players though. (Have to write them on paper, site doesnt even support making notes on players :P)

Any input at all is more than welcome

[kabouter]

I play mostly the same, but sometimes it's nice to fall back on pahud stats when you've got a tough decision to make.
I think you simply got better though...

[netstorm]

Yes, that used to be my point exactly. But now I just check my notebook (I keep notes on at least all the regulars, and some other players of course).

I wonder if a HUD actually made me make worse decisions, i.e. not giving a 40/15 player enough credit for a good hand.

[Shaddux]

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I wonder if a HUD actually made me make worse decisions, i.e. not giving a 40/15 player enough credit for a good hand.

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Sounds like you aren't using/interpreting your HUD stats correctly. All the more reason to keep using your notebook I guess.

[Antinome]

Recently moving from without HUD to HUD I absolutely bombed the first 2K hands with a HUD.

No question it was the HUD's fault. It completely distracted me from my normal pattern recognition routine. I wasn't even taking notes. I never had any Idea what my opponents had. So a new policy- I don't even turn the thing on unless most of the players at the table have 50+ hands in the database, and even then I ignore it most of the time.

Toned colors way, way down so they don't grab the eye.

That got me back in the groove.

[ymu]

I think a HUD can make it too easy not to use specific reads. Stats can't tell you the difference between a good LAG and a bad LAG, a trappy fish or a calling station, and so on.

Some 45/5 players will only call raises with the same 5% that they raise with, others will call with the full 45% range they limp with (critical info if you want to steal a multi-limper pot with junk).

Aggression factor doesn't tell you how often then call down with a weak hand/draw, as opposed to trap with a big one. AF also doesn't tell you how big they bet - I don't mind calling with a speculative hand against a tight player with a high AF who bets way too small every time - some of the highest AF players in my games only ever minbet regardless of pot size, but will happily call huge reraises with an obviously second best hand.

Stats are definitely useful in deciding whether or not to call preflop raises and putting them on ranges if I do, and in deciding how to interpret a bet post-flop, but there really isn't a substitute for noticing what they do in particular situations - whether they bet or call down with their draws or TPNK etc hands, whether they only raise draws but not monsters or vice versa, whether minbet/minbet/overbet means "I have a monster" or "fold, damn you", and so on.

I think it's easy to look at stats, see that they're fishy, and give the player way too little respect during a given hand.

[netstorm]

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I think it's easy to look at stats, see that they're fishy, and give the player way too little respect during a given hand.

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QFT

This particular bit has cost me a lot of money I guess. I am now playing a lot more read dependant, so maybe thats helped me a lot. So I would probably advice people to try playing without a HUD, and just make a [censored] of notes on everyone /images/graemlins/smile.gif

[Delphin]

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I wonder if a HUD actually made me make worse decisions, i.e. not giving a 40/15 player enough credit for a good hand.

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Sounds like you aren't using/interpreting your HUD stats correctly. All the more reason to keep using your notebook I guess.

[/ QUOTE ]

Maybe, maybe not. OP stated he moved from a site allowing PT and using a HUD to a site that doesn't integrate with PT and therefore he no longer has a HUD. Is it possible that the higher winrate is due to lesser competition at the site that doesn't support PT? There are probably way less multitabling sharks there, right?

[SavageMiser]

Good point, Delphin.

Also I think that people tend to stick with the standard VPIP/PFR/AF stats too much. Tailor your HUD to your game.

Since I prefer to take the lead, I set it up so I see the percentage of cold-calling preflop raises and percentage of calling continuation bets. Helps me.

[Marshall28]

if i turn on the HUD .. i do the same thing, i put too much emphasis on the stats rather than the actual events of the hand, and i lose ... big. otherwise i win 5bb/100 hands without it

[netstorm]

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I wonder if a HUD actually made me make worse decisions, i.e. not giving a 40/15 player enough credit for a good hand.

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Sounds like you aren't using/interpreting your HUD stats correctly. All the more reason to keep using your notebook I guess.

[/ QUOTE ]

Maybe, maybe not. OP stated he moved from a site allowing PT and using a HUD to a site that doesn't integrate with PT and therefore he no longer has a HUD. Is it possible that the higher winrate is due to lesser competition at the site that doesn't support PT? There are probably way less multitabling sharks there, right?

[/ QUOTE ]

Perhaps the competition might be less, but on every full ring table there's at least 3-5 multitabling regulars... And this is at $50nl.

I will obviously try to continue playing without a HUD. Works fine fore me /images/graemlins/smile.gif

[avfletch]

When I first started using PT/PAHUD in earnest it did wonders for my game. It really helped me get into the groove of pattern recognition and keeping track of how people played. It made me notice a lot more than I was before and jump started my game from mediocre/breakeven at best to a pretty strong player at the small stakes.

At that point I was grinding 8 tables at a time for a pretty decent winrate but it got quite boring after a while and as I started to push up stakes I found that the HUD just didn't cut it for helping me to understand. By chance I started playing most of my poker on a different PC with less screen space so I started to just 2/3 table a higher limit and found I was able to beat it far easier than when I had the HUD on.

I think the moral of the story is that it's a great help, especially at the lower levels, where specific reads are less important. I can easily beat $10NL and $25NL playing several tables with no help or HUD and explaining to my dad everything I'm doing. But at $50NL - $100NL the diversity of players and their (admittedly small) ability to adapt to what you are doing is high enough that simple numbers take a back seat to paying more attention.

[Wolfram]

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Or would it be that playing 20k hands at 6max has sharpened my skills enough so that I am now a better full ring player?

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This could very well be true.

Or mayhap your sample size isn't big enough to deduce a real winrate yet? (20k hands is concidered the minimum to get a solid PTBB/100 stat).

Probably it's a combination of both.

[Shaddux]

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I wonder if a HUD actually made me make worse decisions, i.e. not giving a 40/15 player enough credit for a good hand.

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Sounds like you aren't using/interpreting your HUD stats correctly. All the more reason to keep using your notebook I guess.

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Maybe, maybe not.

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The reason I said this was that you shouldn't not give credit to loose players or LAGs ever. The HUD gives us stats that we can interpret, in such a case, to provide hand ranges. A PT newbie might think "His VPIP > 40, so I'm probably good," whereas a good HUD user will combine stats with the way villain played the hand and, consequently, narrow down hand ranges considerably.

[PBJaxx]

This may not be a very popular post, but here is my take.

The bottom line is that playing with a HUD gives you more information in a game on incomplete information. Any additional information in this game is helpful. The problem is, that not everyone will necessarily know what the information means. It is important to completely understand what the numbers are, where they are derived from, and how they apply to the current opponent and situation.

Some posters have made the point that because a player shows up as 40/5 it doesn't mean that they are a fish. This is true. I don't think you will find anyone who has played poker for awhile that thinks there is ONE single way to beat the game. There are many ways. What that tells you is simply that he voluntarily puts money in the pot with 40% of the hands dealt to him, and he raises preflop 5% of the time. That is it. It is, though, additional information. If a player like this 3-bets you from the small blind, be more cautious than if a player with 40/25 or 30/20 does the same thing. Also realize that he could have damn near any two cards when he gets in unraised pots, or if he has a high CC percentage, even in raised pots.

Definately taylor your HUD to display stats that you find valuable based upon your playing style. I agree with an earlier poster that the call continuation bet stat is great. I keep it in the dropdown, though, because I want to see the sample size. 1/2 times is very different than 25/50 times, and knowing the total number of hands you have on him is not enough because different playing styles lead to different situations. In my case, you may have 1,000 hands on me, but only have 3 or 4 examples of this for me as I rarely cold call, so I don't face many cbets.

My point with all of this is that playing with a HUD should not hurt your game. If it appears to, then it is a problem with the way you are using it, not with its presence. There is no subsitution for real reads and understanding how a player thinks and applies it to there play, but having any extra information should only help if it is used properly.

-Jaxx

[subzero]

PT stats. provide information and the more information, the better. But it takes skill to interpret that information correctly. You also need to observe how they play, what hands they're playing, from what positions, etc. Relying solely on stats. is not the most effective way to make reads.

I probably rely on PT stats. too much. But sometimes the information is revealing. If an 18/2/1 (1000 hands) raises preflop UTG, his range is very narrow compared to a 40/16/4 in the same spot.

[kaz2107]

if u are not using HUD u are losing value imo. poker is a game of information and then piecing the information together to make the best possible descion. if u have access to more info (that most dont have) and just to choose to not have it that is a leak imo.

idk if it is a frame of mind like "im better then u and thus dont need PAhud to get reads" or wut but it seems like some people are just giving away money by not using it. there is no way u can keep track of all the stuff that PAhud will for u and deffinatly cant keep some of the ideas as exact without it. there seems like no reason not to use it.

if u arent doing as well with it id say it is a simple case of vairence, u arent interpreting the stats as u should, or u are thinking in the back of ur head how this program wont work or is dumb or wutever and thus not paying as much attention to the tables. there is no way u should b doing worse with more information given to u. that is just nonsense.

OP
ur stats mean little here. u have changed soo many variables in the different stats that they are useless when making this comparison. u are playin on a new site, u are playin a different number of tables, u r playin FR instead if 6max, and u have a relatively small sample size. because of all this u cant really draw many conclusions based on it.

[netstorm]

Thank you all for a lot of great responses in this thread. I always love a good discussion about various topics.

My main leak in my play with a HUD was that I did indeed did not gave enough credit to high VPIP players. I did however used stats of fold/raise cbet on people. Those stats were helpfull, but on the days where you were playing on party at $25nl (before the ban), youd rarely find the same player, unless you were datamining a fair amount of time.

I think now that I have been playing without a HUD, and now would go back to using a HUD it would probably make my play somewhat better again. Now that I am able to make decisions based on reads, and not on some stats on people who I have not been paying attention to.

I think it also has to do with my ability on postflop play. I was usually scared of anyone with TAG stats, so it was either get it all in with a good hand, or a bluff, or get in the least possible. Now I have seen how relatively easy it is to extract money from a standard / bad TAG (floating, cbet etc.)

I have also learned not to overplay TPTK =P

[netstorm]

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if u are not using HUD u are losing value imo. poker is a game of information and then piecing the information together to make the best possible descion. if u have access to more info (that most dont have) and just to choose to not have it that is a leak imo.

idk if it is a frame of mind like "im better then u and thus dont need PAhud to get reads" or wut but it seems like some people are just giving away money by not using it. there is no way u can keep track of all the stuff that PAhud will for u and deffinatly cant keep some of the ideas as exact without it. there seems like no reason not to use it.

if u arent doing as well with it id say it is a simple case of vairence, u arent interpreting the stats as u should, or u are thinking in the back of ur head how this program wont work or is dumb or wutever and thus not paying as much attention to the tables. there is no way u should b doing worse with more information given to u. that is just nonsense.

OP
ur stats mean little here. u have changed soo many variables in the different stats that they are useless when making this comparison. u are playin on a new site, u are playin a different number of tables, u r playin FR instead if 6max, and u have a relatively small sample size. because of all this u cant really draw many conclusions based on it.

[/ QUOTE ]

To adress some of the points in your post.

I have never claimed to be "better and therefore dont have to use a HUD" , I hope I didnt come off that way.

I think the main key when not using a HUD (for me, dont know about other people) is that I am now forced to make notes, and keep detailed information on my opponents (I take a note on just about every big pot or bet, on all villains that were in that hand). This means that I am now more focused, whereas playing with a HUD had made me lazy.

I totally agree that I have probably changed waayy too much variables to write all these changes off at not using a HUD. I just would never expect these results without using a HUD, so this surprised me.

[kaz2107]

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if u are not using HUD u are losing value imo. poker is a game of information and then piecing the information together to make the best possible descion. if u have access to more info (that most dont have) and just to choose to not have it that is a leak imo.

idk if it is a frame of mind like "im better then u and thus dont need PAhud to get reads" or wut but it seems like some people are just giving away money by not using it. there is no way u can keep track of all the stuff that PAhud will for u and deffinatly cant keep some of the ideas as exact without it. there seems like no reason not to use it.

if u arent doing as well with it id say it is a simple case of vairence, u arent interpreting the stats as u should, or u are thinking in the back of ur head how this program wont work or is dumb or wutever and thus not paying as much attention to the tables. there is no way u should b doing worse with more information given to u. that is just nonsense.

OP
ur stats mean little here. u have changed soo many variables in the different stats that they are useless when making this comparison. u are playin on a new site, u are playin a different number of tables, u r playin FR instead if 6max, and u have a relatively small sample size. because of all this u cant really draw many conclusions based on it.

[/ QUOTE ]

To adress some of the points in your post.

I have never claimed to be "better and therefore dont have to use a HUD" , I hope I didnt come off that way.

I think the main key when not using a HUD (for me, dont know about other people) is that I am now forced to make notes, and keep detailed information on my opponents (I take a note on just about every big pot or bet, on all villains that were in that hand). This means that I am now more focused, whereas playing with a HUD had made me lazy.

I totally agree that I have probably changed waayy too much variables to write all these changes off at not using a HUD. I just would never expect these results without using a HUD, so this surprised me.

[/ QUOTE ]

my main point here is if u are taking detailed notes and such (as u should)then why not have HUD runnign and also do this. i dont see why u cant have both? seems like the best of both worlds to me??? that was one of the main points i wanted to make tho. u have this great tool that most unlers dont have and dont use it because it makes u lazy. have HUD running and dont b lazy and then profit more /images/graemlins/smile.gif