If Everyone Deserves To Go To Hell

[David Sklansky]

then why is it in any way admirable for an entity with the power to stop that from happening, to in fact stop it for certain people? Keeping people from what they truly deserve is not something to be especially proud of or expect devotion for.

This is doubly true if the criteria that entity uses to decide whether to use that power is whether the people he is considering saving are believing in him and worshiping him. If he saved everybody that would be a bit of a different story. Or if he saved those less deserving of hell then others that would be a significantly different story. And a story more likely to be true (although a nightmare for miscreants, compulsive sinners, ex drug addicts, and the like.)

[PLOlover]

Probably so confusing because the system you are describing is a mix of different religions.

[MidGe]

David,

It seems even worse, or at least as bad, to me as the way you make it out. The default position is that you go to hell, or don't receive the benefit of salvation (I think both are identical if you think about it). So, you have to be lucky, take the gamble, since there are many differing position offered, and get the prize, if you are lucky. It seems that the whole game is biased against the unvoluntary player. Not a nice setup!

[txag007]

[ QUOTE ]
Keeping people from what they truly deserve is not something to be especially proud of or expect devotion for.


[/ QUOTE ]
Grace...mercy...forgiveness...

These aren't admirable qualities?

[FortunaMaximus]

[ QUOTE ]
then why is it in any way admirable for an entity with the power to stop that from happening, to in fact stop it for certain people? Keeping people from what they truly deserve is not something to be especially proud of or expect devotion for.

[/ QUOTE ]

No, it isn't, but it isn't all despciable either. In theory, he doesn't seem to make snap judgments, but once he makes 'em, the action is swift.

May be he doesn't need more than a day or a century to decide where a person and its emergent consciousness belong in the larger scheme of things. (assuming there's one anyway)

So Purgatory or the like may be a chance to collect yourself, present your case. Someone commented in a thread a couple weeks ago it isn't a tribunal...

Well... I'll allow for the possibility he doesn't micromanage that either and delegates the tasks downward.

Makes the Morningstar a partner in crime and someone He's in perpetual disagreement with rather than an enemy. It's an extraordinary debate if looked at from different angles...

[ QUOTE ]
Grace...mercy...forgiveness...

These aren't admirable qualities?

[/ QUOTE ]

They can be, and it all depends on your motivations behind the actions you take to show these qualities.

[madnak]

So, if God chooses mercy over justice, then why doesn't everyone get spared?

Oh really, I don't know why I still bother...

[txag007]

[ QUOTE ]
So, if God chooses mercy over justice, then why doesn't everyone get spared?

[/ QUOTE ]
The offer is on the table, and it is there for everybody.

Why should God save someone who chooses to reject Him?

[madnak]

[ QUOTE ]
Why should God save someone who chooses to reject Him?

[/ QUOTE ]

[ QUOTE ]
Grace...mercy...forgiveness...

[/ QUOTE ]

[MidGe]

[ QUOTE ]
Why should God save someone who chooses to reject Him?

[/ QUOTE ]

They may not reject him, just be totally unconcerned with him, given his successful hiding strategies!

[thesnowman22]

Mr. Slansky, the story is no more or less likely to be true regardless of anything. Either it is or it isnt. When we find out, it will be too late. Discussing it is entertaining, but we cant settle this debate here.

[MidGe]

[ QUOTE ]
Mr. Slansky, the story is no more or less likely to be true regardless of anything. Either it is or it isnt. When we find out, it will be too late. Discussing it is entertaining, but we cant settle this debate here.

[/ QUOTE ]

No, maybe we shouldn't except that those that believe it to be true tend to enforce their views about what is right or wrong on those that do not. Until it is proven right or wrong I'd rather go by what I feel and think is morally right than what others think is because someone or a book may say so.

[IronUnkind]

[ QUOTE ]
So, if God chooses mercy over justice, then why doesn't everyone get spared?

[/ QUOTE ]

If you answered your own questions, you wouldn't have to ask them rhetorically.

[ QUOTE ]
Oh really, I don't know why I still bother...

[/ QUOTE ]

Even Einstein had to deal with mediocre minds. Then again, Einstein was no you.

[madnak]

I think Einstein would have taken one look at txag and run for the hills...

[FortunaMaximus]

[ QUOTE ]
I think Einstein would have taken one look at txag and run for the hills...

[/ QUOTE ]

Is that this thread's equivalent of turning down Israel's presidency?

/obv.

[hmkpoker]

[ QUOTE ]
So, if God chooses mercy over justice, then why doesn't everyone get spared?

Oh really, I don't know why I still bother...

[/ QUOTE ]

This is why I like discussing politics more. At least the people on the opposite side aren't retarded.

[kurto]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
So, if God chooses mercy over justice, then why doesn't everyone get spared?

Oh really, I don't know why I still bother...

[/ QUOTE ]

This is why I like discussing politics more. At least the people on the opposite side aren't retarded.

[/ QUOTE ]

I beg to differ.

I think its quite obvious (as well as studies have shown) that people treat politics like a religion.

I have no problem admitting that Bluffthis makes truly well thought out posts on the Omaha Forum. I also truly believe he is like txag when it comes to supporting his politics. It is unquestioning, unyielding and illogical.

Cognitive dissonance is a norm in religion and politics.

[IronUnkind]

[ QUOTE ]

Is that this thread's equivalent of turning down Israel's presidency?

[/ QUOTE ]

In this case, it was only being offered ironically.

[FortunaMaximus]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

Is that this thread's equivalent of turning down Israel's presidency?

[/ QUOTE ]

In this case, it was only being offered ironically.

[/ QUOTE ]

Wouldn't be the first time. What's one stone to a prince in a swamp?

[thesnowman22]

Thats your choice. What you or I believe is irrelavant as to whether its true or not.

[madnak]

Don't speak too soon - ever played Mage?

[CORed]

This is an aspect of Christianity that has always bothered me. Bascially, God has put humans in a rigged game. He has made laws that no human alive could possibly comply with, but if you believe in Jesus and feel bad about not being able to beat the rigged game (repent your sins), you get to win (go to heaven) no matter how badly you played.

[David Sklansky]

Great analogy.

[txag007]

[ QUOTE ]
Great analogy.

[/ QUOTE ]
Really? Let's look at it...

[ QUOTE ]
Bascially, God has put humans in a rigged game.

[/ QUOTE ]
Why were we created? To worship God through a relationship with Him. Did he intend for us to fall into sin? No. Was he prepared to get us back when we (mankind) did? Yes.

[ QUOTE ]
He has made laws that no human alive could possibly comply with,

[/ QUOTE ]
That's right. But why? Because of the sinful nature you inherited from your ancestors (Adam & Eve). You're exactly right; you can't comply with God's laws on your own.

[ QUOTE ]
but if you believe in Jesus and feel bad about not being able to beat the rigged game (repent your sins),

[/ QUOTE ]
To repent does not mean "to feel bad" or "to regret". It means to change your state of mind so that you turn and walk completely away from your sins. You can't repent and remain in them.

[ QUOTE ]
you get to win (go to heaven) no matter how badly you played.

[/ QUOTE ]
Yes! Isn't that great? Why is it so easy? Look again at why we were created: not to do good, not to be nice to each other. We were created for a relationship with the Almighty. By accepting Jesus, what you are doing is restoring that relationship that was broken by sin.

You know what? That was a pretty good analogy after all.

[She]

nh

[Prodigy54321]

[ QUOTE ]
Because of the sinful nature you inherited from your ancestors (Adam & Eve).

[/ QUOTE ]

in what sick, twisted view of justice is this even remotely just...apparently god's

I wasn't even born during most of the 80's..but this is giving me flashbacks of the "crackbaby" scares

[ QUOTE ]
Look again at why we were created: not to do good, not to be nice to each other. We were created for a relationship with the Almighty.

[/ QUOTE ]

another example of the same thing..by your/and other christian's views of this god..he is quickly turning into the most sick, twisted being of all time!!

and my problem with your second comment is in another thread..because I thought It might go deep enough to deserve its own thread

[Jim T]

[ QUOTE ]
Why were we created? To worship God through a relationship with Him. Did he intend for us to fall into sin? No.

[/ QUOTE ]

If there is a God, is He "all knowing"? Is He "all powerful"?

If the answer to both questions is yes, then He obviously intended men to fall into sin. Otherwise, we would not have done so.

You don't seem to have much faith in His craftmanship, knowledge, or power. At least 1 of the 3 would have to be severely lacking.

[samsonite2100]

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Why were we created? To worship God through a relationship with Him.

[/ QUOTE ]

What kind of a low-self-esteem having, narcissistic jerkoff do you think God is? More importantly, why would anyone choose to worship at this kind of God's altar? It's like worshipping Michael Scott from The Office, or something.

[Lestat]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Why were we created? To worship God through a relationship with Him.

[/ QUOTE ]

What kind of a low-self-esteem having, narcissistic jerkoff do you think God is? More importantly, why would anyone choose to worship at this kind of God's altar? It's like worshipping Michael Scott from The Office, or something.

[/ QUOTE ]

If you were a monkey, would you buck the system?

He seems to be describing some type of alpha-male. While it might be unspeakable to you, if his version of God is correct, it is not unthinkable to worship Him or even neccessarily terrible to do so. It's just not what you're used to.

[FortunaMaximus]

Well, you can pay him the respect he deserves where your individual moral calculations are involved.

And that's the thing. The basic conditions are good and evil. It's not him that set the value assessments of either condition.

And when you stop to consider the possibility that it's actually a her instead, sometimes it gets a lot easier.

Well. It's not like she said good was right and evil is wrong. That's self-judgment, really, and that's the variable.

I don't know, I've always gone against the grain where authority was concerned, but not because they were wrong, just that I could come to my own conclusions and I sure as hell can find better ones than Christianity or any other religion can provide.

When mathematics is your first language, you render Babel meaningless. It's just pattern recognition.

Yes, I'm human. I just never limited myself to thinking like one. And some days, even the machines don't run fast enough for my appetites.

Whatever. I know, personally, I'm gonna push whatever limits I can find, and violate them. But I will not violate my own personal moral code. And all that boils down to is the golden rule. I'm arrogant enough and secure enough with my own talents to give away every advantage in artistic contempt...

Simply 'cause no matter how much I give away, I'll be damned if I don't always have an edge.

[samsonite2100]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Why were we created? To worship God through a relationship with Him.

[/ QUOTE ]

What kind of a low-self-esteem having, narcissistic jerkoff do you think God is? More importantly, why would anyone choose to worship at this kind of God's altar? It's like worshipping Michael Scott from The Office, or something.

[/ QUOTE ]

If you were a monkey, would you buck the system?

He seems to be describing some type of alpha-male. While it might be unspeakable to you, if his version of God is correct, it is not unthinkable to worship Him or even neccessarily terrible to do so. It's just not what you're used to.

[/ QUOTE ]

The fundamental premise of a vain, insecure Creator is, in fact, unthinkable to me, as is worshipping such a Creator. Furthermore, if God were actually this way, I would say it would it would be terrible to worship him.

Someone might believe in a God that requires his faithful go out and murder in his name, but that doesn't mean I should 1) accept the possibility of such a God, or 2) respect their belief in Him.

[Prodigy54321]

[ QUOTE ]
Someone might believe in a God that requires his faithful go out and murder in his name, but that doesn't mean I should 1) accept the possibility of such a God

[/ QUOTE ]

why is that, is it any less likely?

[ QUOTE ]
or 2) respect their belief in Him.

[/ QUOTE ]

sure, if you place more importance on life on earth than a relationship with god...

[samsonite2100]

[ QUOTE ]
why is that, is it any less likely?

[/ QUOTE ]

Good point, maybe it's not.

[ QUOTE ]
sure, if you place more importance on life on earth than a relationship with god...

[/ QUOTE ]

I would place more importance on Earthly life than a relationship with a psychopathic God.

[tolbiny]

[ QUOTE ]

That's right. But why? Because of the sinful nature you inherited from your ancestors (Adam & Eve)

[/ QUOTE ]

Yikes, god made adam and eve if hthey were made with a sinful nature its his fault/responsibility. You can blame it on the serpant all you want (who made him again?), but it doesn't change the obvious flaws in the design.

[FortunaMaximus]

Why the hell would you want a perfect design, tolbiny?

Pre-ordained result and von Neumann machines. Bleah.

[ QUOTE ]
I would place more importance on Earthly life than a relationship with a psychopathic God.

[/ QUOTE ]

And that's why suicide ain't only a sin, it's one of the Laws. Thou shalt not...

One-way visit to the ferryman.

[tolbiny]

[ QUOTE ]

Why the hell would you want a perfect design, tolbiny?

[/ QUOTE ]

I never said i wanted it to be perfect, but when you design something you are responsible for the outcomes of that design. If god made humans fallible then to grant them an out clause is not mercy, its just correcting a design flaw.

[FortunaMaximus]

Ultimate responsibility, and that I don't dispute. But you can't assign ultimate blame to him. Otherwise there's no free will, induced or not.

[tolbiny]

[ QUOTE ]
Ultimate responsibility, and that I don't dispute. But you can't assign ultimate blame to him. Otherwise there's no free will, induced or not.

[/ QUOTE ]

The story TXG tells us is that god made man to have a relationship with god. Basically so god would have someone to talk to. He makes a whole lot of fun things sins- (sex, drugs and rock and roll) and tells us not to do them. The only logical outcome is that most (read: all) humans will sin (in fact he insures it by making even newborns guilty by virtue (pun!) of their parents original sin). Sins are punishable by an eternity of damnation, but he gives us an out in the "contract". If we accept Jesus, and really really try hard then we get a reprive so to speak and gain a relationship with god- which is what he wanted in the first place. There is no mercy or compassion there, just god getting what he wants and everyone who doesn't understand whats going on gets effed in the A.

[FortunaMaximus]

Pretty sure there's a fallback and recycle position somewhere.

I don't know, and that's the thorny issue, it's difficult to determine the theortical nature of his extremism.

However, there is or will be a Trojan process in the end not to judge him, but to overtake him and bring him to task.

And that's a promise.