If God Gave Every Individual Human Free Will [Archive]

BluffTHIS!

10-24-2006, 08:32 AM

David,

Your argument falls down because by logical extension it would mean that someone with an average IQ who couldn't understand the math and theories of physics that a genius physicist could somehow too lacks free will. Such a person doesn't actually lack free will, but the means to accomplish that will.

However even so, you argument does apply to the fundamentalists who would say that the New Guinea man of the year 1 A.D. who had no chance to hear the gospel preached was condemned for not believing, while at the same time maintaining God nonetheless loved that man yet chose not to give him the means he gave others who also lacked the power to be saved without God's grace.

Note this doesn't mean that I believe God never plays favorites and doesn't give some men more chances (greater grace) to be saved, but just that He gives all some minimal chance.

txag007

10-24-2006, 08:35 AM

[ QUOTE ]
If God Gave Every Individual Human Free Will
then how is it they every one, including those not yet born, must necessarily deserve to go to hell?

[/ QUOTE ]
Because you inherited it from your parents. Just like you end up with certain traits that cause you to look like your parents or grandparents, you received their sinful nature as well.

[ QUOTE ]
If it is beyond the capacity of a human to behave sinlessly or however would be necessary to get into heaven without a "pardon", then humans don't have free will.

[/ QUOTE ]
You have both the ability to reject God and the ability to come to Him through the voluntary sacrifice of Jesus.

MidGe

10-24-2006, 08:46 AM

[ QUOTE ]
You have both the ability to reject God and the ability to come to Him through the voluntary sacrifice of Jesus.

[/ QUOTE ]

You just have no way of knowing which way is right before you have decided, and then you will be convinced/brainwashed you are right. I hope you are on the right side txag007, because if you are not, it is gonna hurt. Not that I predict that as an atheist. We are kinder types of people. /images/graemlins/smile.gif

FortunaMaximus

10-24-2006, 08:53 AM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
You have both the ability to reject God and the ability to come to Him through the voluntary sacrifice of Jesus.

[/ QUOTE ]

You just have no way of knowing which way is right before you have decided, and then you will be convinced/brainwashed you are right. I hope you are on the right side txag007, because if you are not, it is gonna hurt. Not that I predict that as an atheist. We are kinder types of people. /images/graemlins/smile.gif

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't doubt that. Some of you seem like reformed ex-smokers at times though. /images/graemlins/tongue.gif

thesnowman22

10-24-2006, 08:58 AM

Yes, humans are incapable of going thru life without sinning.

Stu Pidasso

10-24-2006, 10:10 AM

Its not impossible for humans to behave sinlessly. Its just given our nature its highly unlikely.

Heres a problem I have regarding the nature of God and free will. I was taught that God is omniscience, that he knows all things past, present, and future. I was also taught that God can do all things and that when God created man, he created man with free will. Suppose I were to meet God in a room that contains nothing other than a bowl of ice cream, our persons, and a spoon. Now suppose God said to me that He would reveal one to me the outcome of any future event I inquired about. I inquire to God wether or not I will willingly eat that bowl of ice cream. If God says that I will eat the bowl of ice cream can I now choose not to? If I choose not to eat the bowl of ice cream does that mean that God is not omnisceince and/or cannot do all things? Assume I know God will not lie to me.

Stu

FortunaMaximus

10-24-2006, 10:15 AM

He doesn't need to. Omniscience isn't about knowing one future, it's about knowing every possible future and knowing what future is more probable.

The very fact that there is only one possible branch of unfolding probably keeps it interesting for him.

NotReady

10-24-2006, 10:39 AM

[ QUOTE ]

If it is beyond the capacity of a human to behave sinlessly

[/ QUOTE ]

There are many issue and difficulties with free will. However, there was One who did live sinlessly.

I believe that Christ vindicates the perfection of human nature as created by God. In the New Testament He is sometimes referred to as the "second Adam". There are several reasons for this, but one is surely because He not only passed the test Adam failed, but passed many more of nearly infinitely greater difficulty.

Stu Pidasso

10-24-2006, 10:51 AM

[ QUOTE ]
He doesn't need to. Omniscience isn't about knowing one future, it's about knowing every possible future and knowing what future is more probable.

The very fact that there is only one possible branch of unfolding probably keeps it interesting for him.

[/ QUOTE ]

So what you're saying is that God really doesn't know wether or not I will eat that bowl of ice cream. You and I have a different understanding of the nature of God.

Stu

FortunaMaximus

10-24-2006, 10:56 AM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
He doesn't need to. Omniscience isn't about knowing one future, it's about knowing every possible future and knowing what future is more probable.

The very fact that there is only one possible branch of unfolding probably keeps it interesting for him.

[/ QUOTE ]

So what you're saying is that God really doesn't know wether or not I will eat that bowl of ice cream. You and I have a different understanding of the nature of God.

Stu

[/ QUOTE ]

Perhaps. He knows that you will or will not eat it. He doesn't know the particular decision you will take at that juncture. And he knows the results and what the next juncture will be.

How else is free will going to be a valid condition?

hmkpoker

10-24-2006, 10:56 AM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
If God Gave Every Individual Human Free Will
then how is it they every one, including those not yet born, must necessarily deserve to go to hell?

[/ QUOTE ]
Because you inherited it from your parents. Just like you end up with certain traits that cause you to look like your parents or grandparents, you received their sinful nature as well.

[ QUOTE ]
If it is beyond the capacity of a human to behave sinlessly or however would be necessary to get into heaven without a "pardon", then humans don't have free will.

[/ QUOTE ]
You have both the ability to reject God and the ability to come to Him through the voluntary sacrifice of Jesus.

[/ QUOTE ]

Why would god even bother creating something that necessarily deserved eternal damnation?

Mickey Brausch

10-24-2006, 10:59 AM

[ QUOTE ]
This doesn't mean that I believe God never plays favorites and doesn't give some men more chances (greater grace) to be saved, but just that He gives all some minimal chance.

[/ QUOTE ]

OK, you just gave him cause for at least three new threads.

vulturesrow

10-24-2006, 11:01 AM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
If God Gave Every Individual Human Free Will
then how is it they every one, including those not yet born, must necessarily deserve to go to hell?

[/ QUOTE ]
Because you inherited it from your parents. Just like you end up with certain traits that cause you to look like your parents or grandparents, you received their sinful nature as well.

[ QUOTE ]
If it is beyond the capacity of a human to behave sinlessly or however would be necessary to get into heaven without a "pardon", then humans don't have free will.

[/ QUOTE ]
You have both the ability to reject God and the ability to come to Him through the voluntary sacrifice of Jesus.

[/ QUOTE ]

Why would god even bother creating something that necessarily deserved eternal damnation?

[/ QUOTE ]

The original state of Man was not one that deserved eternal damnation.

Prodigy54321

10-24-2006, 11:10 AM

[ QUOTE ]
Because you inherited it from your parents. Just like you end up with certain traits that cause you to look like your parents or grandparents, you received their sinful nature as well.

[/ QUOTE ]

this is one of the things that I cannot see as possibly being just...

and I see no way of reconciling it.

this god seems like a moran

Piers

10-24-2006, 11:14 AM

madnak

10-24-2006, 11:16 AM

[ QUOTE ]
The original state of Man was not one that deserved eternal damnation.

[/ QUOTE ]

Beside the point. God knew when he created man that all men would deserve to be damned. That's like saying, "when I pulled the trigger the bullet wasn't hurting you, so obviously it's not my fault I shot you." Honestly now. God pressed the big "MAKE THE DAMNED" button.

Also, God created to motive, means, and opportunity for man to sin. He made the tree of knowledge, he allowed the temptation, and based on the OT description of Satan he actually ordered Satan to tempt Adam and Eve into sin. And he's also the one who created Adam and Eve with an inherent temptation to eat the fruit in the first place.

I mean, there is no dimension of human sin for which God isn't responsible. So shut up.

Would an omnibenevolent God create a damned being? No, not unless you mean something out of the ordinary by "benevolent."

vhawk01

10-24-2006, 11:27 AM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
The original state of Man was not one that deserved eternal damnation.

[/ QUOTE ]

Beside the point. God knew when he created man that all men would deserve to be damned. That's like saying, "when I pulled the trigger the bullet wasn't hurting you, so obviously it's not my fault I shot you." Honestly now. God pressed the big "MAKE THE DAMNED" button.

Also, God created to motive, means, and opportunity for man to sin. He made the tree of knowledge, he allowed the temptation, and based on the OT description of Satan he actually ordered Satan to tempt Adam and Eve into sin. And he's also the one who created Adam and Eve with an inherent temptation to eat the fruit in the first place.

I mean, there is no dimension of human sin for which God isn't responsible. So shut up.

Would an omnibenevolent God create a damned being? No, not unless you mean something out of the ordinary by "benevolent."

[/ QUOTE ]

And far more important, IMO, he did it with PERFECT KNOWLEDGE. Doubtless I cause harm to people on a daily basis by actions which I consider to be entirely benign (perhaps pushing in a chair or forgetting to, throwing away a bottle and having it fall out of the garbage and trip someone) but I do it without perfect knowledge of the outcome. God had perfect knowledge and knew exactly what he was doing, and he had the werewithal to solve the problem in a perfect way.

Mickey Brausch

10-24-2006, 11:41 AM

[ QUOTE ]
If God Gave Every Individual Human Free Will, then how is it they every one, including those not yet born, must necessarily deserve to go to hell? If it is beyond the capacity of a human to behave sinlessly or however would be necessary to get into heaven without a "pardon", then humans don't have free will.

[/ QUOTE ] Every one is supposed to end up in Hell unless they seek redemption through freely willing themselves into the grace of the Holy Spirit. It may be beyond our own, individual ability to behave sinlessly, or to be born without the burden of the original sin upon us, but we have been provided with enough free will to dial 911.

This week I'm playing for the Christian franchise. I look forward to causing havoc with the defense of our godless opponents whose playbook I took with me.

Mickey Brausch

vulturesrow

10-24-2006, 11:46 AM

[ QUOTE ]
Beside the point. God knew when he created man that all men would deserve to be damned.

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm glad that you have such a handle on the nature of omniscience. I personally subscribe to the belief that Fortuna Maximus posited in another thread. In other words, God knew it was a possible outcome but not _the_ outcome.

[ QUOTE ]
and based on the OT description of Satan he actually ordered Satan to tempt Adam and Eve into sin.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is a fascinating hypothesis, which I confess I have not seen before. Care to expound?

[ QUOTE ]
So shut up.

[/ QUOTE ]

Way to bolster your argument.

vhawk01

10-24-2006, 11:48 AM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
If God Gave Every Individual Human Free Will, then how is it they every one, including those not yet born, must necessarily deserve to go to hell? If it is beyond the capacity of a human to behave sinlessly or however would be necessary to get into heaven without a "pardon", then humans don't have free will.

[/ QUOTE ] Every one is supposed to end up in Hell unless they seek redemption through freely willing themselves into the grace of the Holy Spirit. It may be beyond our own, individual ability to behave sinlessly, or to be born without the burden of the original sin upon us, but we have been provided with enough free will to dial 911.

This week I'm playing for the Christian franchise. I look forward to causing havoc with the defense of our godless opponents whose playbook I took with me.

Mickey Brausch

[/ QUOTE ]

Can I ask a naive question? How do you know that? I mean, you guys seem to be great at deciding what free will does and does not allow us to do. Free will doesn't allow me to live sinlessly, because of my nature. Free will doesn't allow me to fly, because of my short, stubby arms. But free will does allow me to accept God. Why? I mean, I'd assume it says it somewhere in the Bible. But is there some good reason to believe that I really can accept God if I wanted to? I don't think I want to, but maybe thats just me avoiding cognitive dissonance because I really CAN'T.

FortunaMaximus

10-24-2006, 11:49 AM

The benevolence is in the fact he offers free will. What you do with it is your own damnation.

There's a sequence by a pop-fic author (Rice) where she sets God and the Devil sittin' in a Paris cafe shootin' the [censored]. Makes you think about the nature of postcorporeality, she does.

FortunaMaximus

10-24-2006, 11:50 AM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
If God Gave Every Individual Human Free Will, then how is it they every one, including those not yet born, must necessarily deserve to go to hell? If it is beyond the capacity of a human to behave sinlessly or however would be necessary to get into heaven without a "pardon", then humans don't have free will.

[/ QUOTE ] Every one is supposed to end up in Hell unless they seek redemption through freely willing themselves into the grace of the Holy Spirit. It may be beyond our own, individual ability to behave sinlessly, or to be born without the burden of the original sin upon us, but we have been provided with enough free will to dial 911.

This week I'm playing for the Christian franchise. I look forward to causing havoc with the defense of our godless opponents whose playbook I took with me.

Mickey Brausch

[/ QUOTE ]

Can I ask a naive question? How do you know that? I mean, you guys seem to be great at deciding what free will does and does not allow us to do. Free will doesn't allow me to live sinlessly, because of my nature. Free will doesn't allow me to fly, because of my short, stubby arms. But free will does allow me to accept God. Why? I mean, I'd assume it says it somewhere in the Bible. But is there some good reason to believe that I really can accept God if I wanted to? I don't think I want to, but maybe thats just me avoiding cognitive dissonance because I really CAN'T.

[/ QUOTE ]

Well, no, but do you still, regardless, hold yourself to a valid moral standard that doesn't exploit other people in evil fashions?

It's a challenge, not a hard and fast rule. You're damning yourself by your own choices, regardless of whether you believe in an ultimate observer or not.

vhawk01

10-24-2006, 11:51 AM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Beside the point. God knew when he created man that all men would deserve to be damned.

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm glad that you have such a handle on the nature of omniscience. I personally subscribe to the belief that Fortuna Maximus posited in another thread. In other words, God knew it was a possible outcome but not _the_ outcome.

[ QUOTE ]
and based on the OT description of Satan he actually ordered Satan to tempt Adam and Eve into sin.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is a fascinating hypothesis, which I confess I have not seen before. Care to expound?

[ QUOTE ]
So shut up.

[/ QUOTE ]

Way to bolster your argument.

[/ QUOTE ]

Then I think you are the one with an interesting take on omniscience. Heck, I can probably decide what the possible outcomes of an event are, maybe not all, but most. And I can probably even assign them probabilities. Wow, actually, I do this every single day! How can you possibly call that omniscience? What a lame definition.

vulturesrow

10-24-2006, 12:00 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Beside the point. God knew when he created man that all men would deserve to be damned.

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm glad that you have such a handle on the nature of omniscience. I personally subscribe to the belief that Fortuna Maximus posited in another thread. In other words, God knew it was a possible outcome but not _the_ outcome.

[ QUOTE ]
and based on the OT description of Satan he actually ordered Satan to tempt Adam and Eve into sin.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is a fascinating hypothesis, which I confess I have not seen before. Care to expound?

[ QUOTE ]
So shut up.

[/ QUOTE ]

Way to bolster your argument.

[/ QUOTE ]

Then I think you are the one with an interesting take on omniscience. Heck, I can probably decide what the possible outcomes of an event are, maybe not all, but most. And I can probably even assign them probabilities. Wow, actually, I do this every single day! How can you possibly call that omniscience? What a lame definition.

[/ QUOTE ]

Im sorry if I didnt explain it as well as Fortuna did. I'll make another attempt, and then I'll just link if I still dont get the point across. In a nutshell, ominiscience being that God can see every possible outcome of every possible choice. I'd be pretty impressed if you could do that. Hopefully it makes a bit more sense.

vhawk01

10-24-2006, 12:01 PM

I can try to imagine them I guess, but if I dont know which ones are actually going to happen its not the useful. Unless you believe that they all DO happen and that there are an infinite number of worlds. In which case, I'm not too worried because I gotta be going to heaven in about 1/2 infinity of them, right?

vulturesrow

10-24-2006, 12:06 PM

[ QUOTE ]
I can try to imagine them I guess, but if I dont know which ones are actually going to happen its not the useful. Unless you believe that they all DO happen and that there are an infinite number of worlds. In which case, I'm not too worried because I gotta be going to heaven in about 1/2 infinity of them, right?

[/ QUOTE ]

Im not sure why you are questioning the utility of omniscience as I posited it, I was merely explaining my view. And no I dont believe in infinite numbers of universes. I think you understand a little better now what I meant, which is all I was hoping for.

FortunaMaximus

10-24-2006, 12:15 PM

[ QUOTE ]
I can try to imagine them I guess, but if I dont know which ones are actually going to happen its not the useful. Unless you believe that they all DO happen and that there are an infinite number of worlds. In which case, I'm not too worried because I gotta be going to heaven in about 1/2 infinity of them, right?

[/ QUOTE ]

It's not about an infinite number of possible solutions. It's about the fact that there's a finite temporal branch. He can just see all the forks and buds, but he doesn't know in what direction the branch is growing either. And there may not be an endpoint. He should be capable of staying ahead just enough to keep it interesting, and censor himself from the ability to micromanage and control the best possible branch... Because there isn't only one.

_brady_

10-24-2006, 12:26 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Why would god even bother creating something that necessarily deserved eternal damnation?

[/ QUOTE ]

Good point; However if one believes in the bible, and more specifically the book of revelation I don't see how this person can believe we have free will.

hmkpoker

10-24-2006, 01:19 PM

[ QUOTE ]
The original state of Man was not one that deserved eternal damnation.

[/ QUOTE ]

The original state of man didn't last one generation. What the heck was God thinking? The rules seem to be that man was created with the ability to sin, and once one man sinned not only would he be damned for all eternity, but all subsequent men would inherit his sin and also be damned. Was it at all reasonable to expect that Adam, Eve, and every subsequent generation would not sin ever? It seems to me that if he wanted to keep Eden pure, he should have used his omnipotent power to keep Satan out of it. Instead, he created a world accessible to Satan and gave it to fallible humans with the expectation that they would never sin, and assigned infinite punishment to the inevitable action.

vhawk01

10-24-2006, 01:20 PM

I'm still curious as to how we know I have the free will to choose God but I don't have the free will to live sin-free.

FortunaMaximus

10-24-2006, 01:35 PM

[ QUOTE ]
I'm still curious as to how we know I have the free will to choose God but I don't have the free will to live sin-free.

[/ QUOTE ]

Think of it as the biggest morality test of all and treat it as such. Optimal anyway.

madnak

10-24-2006, 02:00 PM

[ QUOTE ]
I'm glad that you have such a handle on the nature of omniscience. I personally subscribe to the belief that Fortuna Maximus posited in another thread. In other words, God knew it was a possible outcome but not _the_ outcome.

[/ QUOTE ]

The eternal devil's advocate. Careful how much you throw in with that one.

But this just shunts the issue off.

First, you're saying God got unlucky, lost a roll of the die? I won't elaborate too much, as hmk already went into the whole OMGWTF aspect of this claim.

Second, God is omnipotent. Thus, if he sees every possible branch, he can choose the branch he likes. And when he takes an action, he accepts all the outcomes. But moreover, because God is omnipotent and is the Eternal and all that, the idea that God is restricted to choosing "risky" scenarios is silly. God created humanity knowing there was an appreciable chance that all humans would be doomed. At minimum then, he "flipped a coin" with regard to whether humans would deserve damnation. And irony of ironies, the very first humans landed on the wrong side of the coin. Oops! I mean, maybe there was only a 1 in 10^8000 chance that Adam and Eve would fail to pass God's "obstacle course," and it just so happens that they did and we're [censored] because of it. Are you really willing to run with such a universe? The implications get really loony.

And at any rate, God made an obstacle course for Adam and Eve to "pass," knowing there was some chance they would fail to pass it. God created Adam and Eve with a weakness that ensured that. And even if the ultimate reason they fell was free will (rather than causal structures such as temptation), God gave them that free will and put them in a situation in which the free will represented an infinite danger. They didn't even get a "tutorial mode" first - BAM, you lose, all of your whole species is doomed.

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
and based on the OT description of Satan he actually ordered Satan to tempt Adam and Eve into sin.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is a fascinating hypothesis, which I confess I have not seen before. Care to expound?

[/ QUOTE ]

Well, this was the view of the ancient Hebrews. The Devil as an enemy of God is a relatively new development. Through most of history in most sects, Satan has been seen as a lieutenant of God.

The book of Job may be the clearest example within modern scripture:

"Heya God, how's things?"
"Oh hi Satan, I'm good. What have you been up to?"
"Me? Oh, you know. This and that. Just wandering around, mostly."
"Wandering? On Earth? Heeeey, you didn't happen to run into Job eh? Totally perfect dude, right?"
"No way man, he's only perfect 'cuz he's got everything he wants. Take that away and he'll go against you in a second."
"Ya think so, huh? How about makin' it interesting...?"

Although I'm more convinced by more abstract references that imply Satan working as a tempter in God's employ. Also it rather makes more sense that Satan works for God than that Satan opposed God. The idea that the greatest of the angels decided to go ahead and sentence himself to hell by opposing the omnipotent guy, and that then the omnipotent guy gave him the power to run around screwing with the "good" angels, well, that seems like a stretch. But regardless, that God even allows Satan the power to affect us (even if Satan is an "enemy" of God) is an indication that he's pissing in the swimming pool.

FortunaMaximus

10-24-2006, 02:15 PM

The sillier the crew, the sillier the Universe. And I'm gonna stick with that until proven wrong. /images/graemlins/grin.gif

vhawk01

10-24-2006, 02:17 PM

Absolutely. How would eliminating Satan effect human free will in any way? That seems to be the standard excuse whenever the question of "Why doesnt God make the world better in X way" comes up. He could do away with Satan right now, poof, and it would both make the world better AND in no way restrict human free will.

carlo

10-24-2006, 03:02 PM

That there was consternation in the Heavens could be seen. The forces of Light were in a battle with the forces of Darkness. In the mighty battle the forces of Darkness continually impinged on the Light which could not respond as being forces of Light, it was not in their way to take what is not theirs nor force their identity upon others. There continued great consternation in the heavens.

Wait! Enters the Human Being! Of noble nature and responding to this mighty tenor of consternating beings the Human Being entered into the battle between Light and Darkness forces , imbibing their natures, and thusly working the salvation of the Light and Darkness forces . His sacrifice to right the cosmic well of heavenly fires.

Paraphrased from a Gnostic Text of which I cannot find. This may not answer questions of the "G" word but might shed some light(no pun intended) upon humanity and its work.

chezlaw

10-24-2006, 03:23 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Quote:
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Yes Free will contradicts "God's omniscience."

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Nope. Just his omnipotence.

[/ QUOTE ]
This always bothers me because its seems such a silly idea of omnipotence. Imagine a being that's all but omnipotent, he could create a world with free-will and somethings were unknown to him no problem voila! there it is. Suddenly this god becomes a teeny bit more powerful acheieves omnipotence and there's all this stuff he suddenly cannot do.

In fact there's nothing extra he can do and all this stuff he cant do, so his less powerful than before and can't possible have acheived omnipotence. He was omnipotent before.

chez

surftheiop

10-24-2006, 04:11 PM

Jesus didnt sin and Jesus was human

David Sklansky

10-24-2006, 05:43 PM

"Doesn't follow any more than because I can't fly by flapping my arms means I haven't got free will."

That's a ridiculous comment. Unless the term free will doesn't include the ability to stop yourself from doing something.

FortunaMaximus

10-24-2006, 05:46 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Quote:
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Yes Free will contradicts "God's omniscience."

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Nope. Just his omnipotence.

[/ QUOTE ]
This always bothers me because its seems such a silly idea of omnipotence. Imagine a being that's all but omnipotent, he could create a world with free-will and somethings were unknown to him no problem voila! there it is. Suddenly this god becomes a teeny bit more powerful acheieves omnipotence and there's all this stuff he suddenly cannot do.

In fact there's nothing extra he can do and all this stuff he cant do, so his less powerful than before and can't possible have acheived omnipotence. He was omnipotent before.

chez

[/ QUOTE ]

Consider the ways he can self-censor himself. I didn't say he wasn't originally omnipotent, did I? Just that for the experiment to grow right, he's gotta stop putting his hands in the pot.

Telling God what to do. What a week.

Mickey Brausch

10-24-2006, 05:47 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Free will doesn't allow me to live sinlessly, because of my nature. But free will does allow me to accept God.

[/ QUOTE ]That was a little weak. See, free will can get you off sin but not in any which way. You can get well but there's a prescribed path to it, the Lord's path. Think medical prescription.

[ QUOTE ]
Is there some good reason to believe that I really can accept God if I wanted to?

[/ QUOTE ]Others testify to have done it. You can choose to try to as well. Free will.

[ QUOTE ]
Free will doesn't allow me to fly, because of my short, stubby arms.

[/ QUOTE ]Nothing to do, this, with free will.

Perhaps Free Willy.

Mickey Brausch
Batting for the Christians all week

David Sklansky

10-24-2006, 05:47 PM

"I believe that Christ vindicates the perfection of human nature as created by God. In the New Testament He is sometimes referred to as the "second Adam". There are several reasons for this, but one is surely because He not only passed the test Adam failed, but passed many more of nearly infinitely greater difficulty."

My whole point disappears if you acknowledge the at least theoretical possibility that others could also pass that test. If not, then don't say that Jesus was human.

chezlaw

10-24-2006, 05:52 PM

[ QUOTE ]
"Doesn't follow any more than because I can't fly by flapping my arms means I haven't got free will."

That's a ridiculous comment. Unless the term free will doesn't include the ability to stop yourself from doing something.

[/ QUOTE ]
No its pointing out that we could deserve to go to hell because of things we are unable to do rather than things that we do.

chez

David Sklansky

10-24-2006, 05:55 PM

"You have both the ability to reject God and the ability to come to Him through the voluntary sacrifice of Jesus."

This is where my "assuming" posts come in. People have the ability to embrace, eg not reject God, but they don't have the ability to be sure that he exists. That is why if there is a God, there is no chance he behaves the way you think he does.

revots33

10-24-2006, 06:18 PM

It's all because Adam ate that apple. Because of him, all those sweet little babies you see in the hospital maternity ward are already sinners doomed to hell. It's not god's fault, he told him he could do anything else, but don't eat the apple. Damn Adam. Talk about ruining it for the rest of us.

Luckily if those babies accept Jesus as their savior when they get a bit older, god will say, "Eh, let's forget about all that apple biz. Adam was a putz, and I'm in a forgiving mood today."

chezlaw

10-24-2006, 06:30 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Quote:
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Yes Free will contradicts "God's omniscience."

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Nope. Just his omnipotence.

[/ QUOTE ]
This always bothers me because its seems such a silly idea of omnipotence. Imagine a being that's all but omnipotent, he could create a world with free-will and somethings were unknown to him no problem voila! there it is. Suddenly this god becomes a teeny bit more powerful acheieves omnipotence and there's all this stuff he suddenly cannot do.

In fact there's nothing extra he can do and all this stuff he cant do, so his less powerful than before and can't possible have acheived omnipotence. He was omnipotent before.

chez

[/ QUOTE ]

Consider the ways he can self-censor himself. I didn't say he wasn't originally omnipotent, did I? Just that for the experiment to grow right, he's gotta stop putting his hands in the pot.

Telling God what to do. What a week.

[/ QUOTE ]
I'm just pointing out that the idea that an omnipotent god cannot chose to be unable to know something is silly. it makes that god less powerful than a slightly less omnipotent god whch can't be right.

Religous folk curse their god with omnipotence.

chez

FortunaMaximus

10-24-2006, 06:32 PM

Indeed. He's not censoring the knowledge. I don't think that's even possible, since even information cannot be created or destroyed in a self-emergent process.

However, it's a sure thing he can censor himself from violating causality. Except in rare cases, but I'm working on a theortical dilemma for that.

vhawk01

10-24-2006, 06:33 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Free will doesn't allow me to live sinlessly, because of my nature. But free will does allow me to accept God.

[/ QUOTE ]That was a little weak. See, free will can get you off sin but not in any which way. You can get well but there's a prescribed path to it, the Lord's path. Think medical prescription.

[ QUOTE ]
Is there some good reason to believe that I really can accept God if I wanted to?

[/ QUOTE ]Others testify to have done it. You can choose to try to as well. Free will.

[ QUOTE ]
Free will doesn't allow me to fly, because of my short, stubby arms.

[/ QUOTE ]Nothing to do, this, with free will.

Perhaps Free Willy.

Mickey Brausch
Batting for the Christians all week

[/ QUOTE ]

Oh, sure, OTHERS have done it. I dont doubt that. But I've tried (hypothetically) endlessly, as best as I possibly can, and still, nothing. I am just completely incapable of it (I'm certain!) I'll keep trying until I die, I guess, but it looks like its hell for me.

bunny

10-24-2006, 08:47 PM

FortunaMaximus

10-24-2006, 08:50 PM

You can't create a positive out of a neutral without a negative... And if you start in the red...

Make sense?

NotReady

10-25-2006, 01:54 AM

[ QUOTE ]

My whole point disappears if you acknowledge the at least theoretical possibility that others could also pass that test. If not, then don't say that Jesus was human.

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't believe there is any theoretical or other possibility since the fall due to original or indwelling sin. And Jesus was truly divine and truly human, but without original sin (which most theologians believe was why the virgin birth was necessary).

Mickey Brausch

10-25-2006, 02:20 AM

Keep it warm for me.

Magellan

10-25-2006, 03:13 AM

[ QUOTE ]
You have both the ability to reject God and the ability to come to Him through the voluntary sacrifice of Jesus.

[/ QUOTE ]

Okay fine. So how do you view the situation of someone who lives in a remote location (eg. a member of a tribe in a jungle somewhere) such that they will never know Christianity even exists. I mean sure, it is theoretically possible that they might found out one day, but this possibility is so low for some people that the chance is effectively zero. There is no middle ground in your statement; as far as you're concerned these people aren't embracing your god, so they must be rejecting him.

So if what you believe is true then your god has created a situation (or allowed it to evolve at least) where some people will never have a chance to know he exists, and then damned them for it. Nice.

MidGe

10-25-2006, 04:27 AM

[ QUOTE ]
Okay fine. So how do you view the situation of someone who lives in a remote location (eg. a member of a tribe in a jungle somewhere) such that they will never know Christianity even exists.

[/ QUOTE ]

Indeed, as many have lived in the last 2000 years and as many, even in the right environment, have died too young to be able to even grasp the concept.

tag just displays his usual agreement with his god's hate of those who do not know him/it/she.

This is one of the best example of vile christianity, that is no better than suicide bombers (unless eternal damnation is not as bad as a shortened life).

FortunaMaximus

10-25-2006, 07:18 AM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Okay fine. So how do you view the situation of someone who lives in a remote location (eg. a member of a tribe in a jungle somewhere) such that they will never know Christianity even exists.

[/ QUOTE ]

Indeed, as many have lived in the last 2000 years and as many, even in the right environment, have died too young to be able to even grasp the concept.

tag just displays his usual agreement with his god's hate of those who do not know him/it/she.

This is one of the best example of vile christianity, that is no better than suicide bombers (unless eternal damnation is not as bad as a shortened life).

[/ QUOTE ]

You got it.

Fundamentalists take it a step too far. And criticize other faiths and go to war against them because they're right and want everybody to know it. Ugh.

Human fallacy, I suppose, and the species hasn't outgrown its predatory/alpha tendencies. But that's ok. That's part of the joke.

I'll say that I respect moderate Christians more than I do militant libertatians, because they know and carry their faiths quietly, and they do seem to be happier people who are willing to adhere closer to the golden rule. There are a lot of them, and that makes the good of Christianity what it is. It, for better or for worse, is a community, and a flawed human community at that.

In the end, if God doubts, I doubt him too. He doesn't have to exist, but it's nice to have an old, wise image lookin' down on ya with a half-smirk some days. I tend to think, though, our descendants will push the envelope enough to make him redundant. And you know what, I think he'd be perfectly OK with that. Makes him just one of us, or all of us.

txag007

10-25-2006, 08:36 AM

MidGe

10-25-2006, 08:49 AM

[ QUOTE ]
To save people following the link, here is what you posted:

I don't have all the answers, but here is what Christians typically believe:

Before Jesus walked the Earth, people were saved through faith in God just as they are now.

[/ QUOTE ]
What happened to those that didn't?

[ QUOTE ]

What happens to people who have never heard of Jesus? We don't know. The Bible doesn't say. That's why Christians are desperately trying to take the gospel to all the unreached people groups who have not heard about Jesus.

As for babies, Christians believe in an age of accountability in which they become accountable to God for their sins. This isn't as much a defined age as it is a point in the maturation process at which a child is able to understand right and wrong and realize who Jesus is and what He did on the cross.

[/ QUOTE ]

what happens before that "maturation process"?
[ QUOTE ]

What about people of other religions? As painful as this is for me to type, I'm not going to sugarcoat it. The Bible says that if you have chosen to reject the grace Jesus offers then you are destined to eternal separation from God in Hell.

[/ QUOTE ]

Very loving statement!.... /images/graemlins/smile.gif

Your love (christian?) is oozing as pus out of a boil!

Prodigy54321

10-25-2006, 09:29 AM

[ QUOTE ]
According to the Bible, God is a god of love. He loves everyone and has no desire to send anyone to hell.

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't see how you separate god's desire from his actions so easily

if I tell you...either you worship me, or I will kick you in the nuts...

although I may desire you to take the first option over the second, am I morally separated from the act of kicking you in the nuts even though I have set up this ridiculous dilemma?

txag007

10-25-2006, 09:54 AM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
According to the Bible, God is a god of love. He loves everyone and has no desire to send anyone to hell.

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't see how you separate god's desire from his actions so easily

if I tell you...either you worship me, or I will kick you in the nuts...

although I may desire you to take the first option over the second, am I morally separated from the act of kicking you in the nuts even though I have set up this ridiculous dilemma?

[/ QUOTE ]
He didn't set up this "ridiculous dilemma" as some sort of game. God cannot contradict his own nature.

For the sinful nature desires what is contrary to the Spirit, and the Spirit what is contrary to the sinful nature. They are in conflict with each other, so that you do not do what you want. Galations 5:17

FortunaMaximus

10-25-2006, 10:54 AM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
According to the Bible, God is a god of love. He loves everyone and has no desire to send anyone to hell.

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't see how you separate god's desire from his actions so easily

if I tell you...either you worship me, or I will kick you in the nuts...

although I may desire you to take the first option over the second, am I morally separated from the act of kicking you in the nuts even though I have set up this ridiculous dilemma?

[/ QUOTE ]

Fun.

Fella comes up, kicks ya in the nuts, helps ya up, shoves ya over again. WTF, kid, get your own clue. Movin' on. /images/graemlins/tongue.gif

Prodigy54321

10-25-2006, 11:00 AM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
According to the Bible, God is a god of love. He loves everyone and has no desire to send anyone to hell.

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't see how you separate god's desire from his actions so easily

if I tell you...either you worship me, or I will kick you in the nuts...

although I may desire you to take the first option over the second, am I morally separated from the act of kicking you in the nuts even though I have set up this ridiculous dilemma?

[/ QUOTE ]
He didn't set up this "ridiculous dilemma" as some sort of game. God cannot contradict his own nature.

For the sinful nature desires what is contrary to the Spirit, and the Spirit what is contrary to the sinful nature. They are in conflict with each other, so that you do not do what you want. Galations 5:17

[/ QUOTE ]

I could say that about my own dilemma..does that separate me from my actions?

thesnowman22

10-25-2006, 11:56 AM

No, that is not true. Just because you dont have the ability to not do one thing does not mean you dont have free will to do other things.

I know that was convoluted, but just because I am unable to completly rid myself of sin doesnt mean I dont have the choice to change the TV channel or drive fast.

Thats such a common sense thing that I cant believe im having to type this.

madnak

10-25-2006, 05:21 PM

[ QUOTE ]
He didn't set up this "ridiculous dilemma" as some sort of game. God cannot contradict his own nature.

[/ QUOTE ]

That's the whole point. If God's nature were omnibenevolent, then he could do nothing that would cause suffering. That God's nature requires him to cause eternal torture proves that nature isn't omnibenevolent.

txag007

10-25-2006, 05:28 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
He didn't set up this "ridiculous dilemma" as some sort of game. God cannot contradict his own nature.

[/ QUOTE ]

That's the whole point. If God's nature were omnibenevolent, then he could do nothing that would cause suffering. That God's nature requires him to cause eternal torture proves that nature isn't omnibenevolent.

[/ QUOTE ]
God doesn't cause eternal suffering. It was because of his love and by his mercy that he himself suffered so that we wouldn't have to.

He doesn't cause people to go to hell. We manage to do that on our own.

madnak

10-25-2006, 06:15 PM

We've been over this. It doesn't matter whether the sentence is active or passive. In fact, due to the 0 cost of action for God, there is no substantive difference between the two. And moreover, God actively created humans knowing they would end up in hell, so he's not off the hook even by that standard.

She

10-25-2006, 10:11 PM

[ QUOTE ]
God actively created humans knowing they would end up in hell, so he's not off the hook even by that standard.

[/ QUOTE ]

Just out of curiousity... If you were a parent, and you knew ahead of time that one of your 2 children would go to jail for life... would you abort them both?

madnak

10-26-2006, 08:21 AM

As a matter of fact, I would.

Of course, we shouldn't continue talking about this, because obviously you only asked out of curiosity and would never have stumbled into such a fallacy as thinking this situation is remotely analogous to anything we're discussing.

PLOlover

10-26-2006, 10:30 AM

[ QUOTE ]
then how is it they every one, including those not yet born, must necessarily deserve to go to hell? If it is beyond the capacity of a human to behave sinlessly or however would be necessary to get into heaven without a "pardon", then humans don't have free will.

[/ QUOTE ]

Well if you decide to be a sodomite and you get AIDS, would you complain that you don't have free will or the law is unjust or whatever? (law of god against homosexuality. remember we're in that paradigm.)

True god made some things possible but he told us not to do them.

As to hell, that's a religious doctrine not found in the bible as far as eternal torment and stuff.