Help Me Identify This Popular Line from Villain!

[absoludicrous]

I keep seeing a particular line from villain that has me confused.

Usually it will go something like this...

Villain limps in EP, I raise in LP. Villain calls, and checks flop. I c-bet, villain smooth calls. Turn is a blank. Villain will check, I'll check behind. River is a blank. Villain leads for pot.

or...

I open in LP or MP, villain calls from LP. I c-bet flop, villain calls. Turn comes, I check, villain makes a pot sized bet...

[kaz2107]

it is mostly a passive donk who has some mediocre hand (like tpmk or 2nd pair or a medium pp) but when u show so much weakness they realize they r good and decide to make some weak ass bet at the end

or they r decent and have realized u cbet a ton (i assume) and are floating u some. either or depending on villian

[absoludicrous]

Yeah, I c-bet like 90% of flops.

[kaz2107]

yea then those 2 lines are the most profound imo. ov there will b morons who just think there 2 overs or 2 random cards are worthy of a call for an inside straight draw or wut ever but id say the majority is tha first 2 lines

[EMc]

I love that avatar abs

[bmk67]

[ QUOTE ]
Yeah, I c-bet like 90% of flops.

[/ QUOTE ]

I do as well with position, somewhat less frequently without.

I see this kind of line a lot, although the river bets are often 1/2 pot to PSB. It seems in that villian has had enough of my games and is floating me. I don't recall any horrible players doing this, only those who seem to have some semblance of a clue.

It seems like there are several defenses against this type of villian.

* Find easier prey.
* C-bet him on the flop less.
* Delayed c-bet on the turn?
* Sometimes fire a second barrel on the turn.
* Sometimes call/raise his river bets when we think he's floating.

There are probably other defenses. I'm not sure how frequent "sometimes" is.

At this point, I often choose the "find easier prey" line, but that's not always an option, and it doesn't really help our game - though it does bring in the monies.

[Waingro]

This is a really good question, and I´m a little disappointed there haven´t been more responses. Because this is one of the more common scenarios. Sometimes it feels like every other hand you raise pf end up like this.

I´m with Kaz here, this is often some kind of marginal made hand that villain is betting for value. He has deduced that you have absolutely nothing, but the fact that no worse hand calls doesn´t stop him from betting for value his third pair or whatever. Obviously this is sometimes a slowplayed tptk or better or he just got there or some random bluff but overall I think you will find a marginal made hand here.

One counterstrategy is to check good made hands behind on the turn to induce this kind of super thin valuebets. Whether you shove over the top for value with hands like aa or just call is a personal preference. A shove is a sick play and they can probably talk themselves into a call. Alternately you could shove river as a bluff to move them off third pair. I really don´t have any solid grasp of your average villain´s frequencies to comment on a river shove either way.

[munkey]

Me too - both these lines I encounter ofen and aren't sure what to do- I'll be on the alert for these lines when playig today.

The problem I think is when I take this line as abs does I often have not very much or an o.k. hand and confused when facing the PSB. When I take the check line with TP hands if I check the turn I often see medium pairs/TPMK/missed draws but sometimes 2 pairs.

Vs thinking opponents that know you've got air weakly made hand more often than not it could be a bluff or good made hand and they've read you and put you in a sticky situation.

If I c/r turn with a better hand/draw it gets called a fair amount time too so I'm not sure if it's particular to villans.

I believe NLHTAP discusses that in this situation your hand becomes a bluff-catcher and thats it.

I'm interested in what others have to say -particularly the PSB from villan when you check turn.

[matrix]

I use the 2nd line lots vs TAG's only I lead the turn for 2/3 not full pot and it's insanely profitable, they almost always fold (I'd guess 70%) or re-raise if they don't fold (at which point I bail unless I have a real hand) it's a standard float line (see Emc's concept of the week thread) IF you think villain is floating you (and at uNL not many villains are) raise the turn and shutdown if called.
it's either the nuts or some near nut hand or total air. Depends on the villain your image and stuff like that.

Don't make this play yourself with just air/semi-bluffs mix in some good hands as well.

I usually call the first line (PSB on river after checking turn through) and it's often a bluff.

If you are mostly going to fold a blank river then don't check the turn, fire a 2nd barrel. I would tend to not call the river unless I have MP+

I refer the honourable gentlepeople to ye olde fimbulwinter post here (http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/showflat.php?Cat=0&Board=ssplnlpoker&Number=161808 6)

4. Raising when you're either waaay ahead or waaay behind. In a hand I had AQs on button and bumped it. 3 callers. flop came A73 rainbow and someone led into me. either i'm crushed or i'm killing them, and i probably won't be able to get away from this given the 25NL players and the short stacks, so instead of raising when bet into, i just call. this looks weak and induces further bluffs. make your decision right there how to play it and go with your read, if you call there you call down the rest of the hand, even if a 7 or 2 peels off. if you're MAKING them bluff then you MUST call. in the hand the run came an ace and the guy bet again, i called. river blanked and he pushed, i called and he showed KQo. If i'd have raised the flop i'd have made a little. by taking a small risk, i made a lot. note this does not apply to draw heavy boards, so raise those likely semibluffs, but not the pure bluffs.

if the board isn't very drawy and you are playing it passive and calling bets then you can't bail and fold a blank river - if you induce a bluff (or are very likely to have induced a bluff) you gotta call. If your hand is too weak to call a river PSB then fire barrel #2 on the turn.

Obv villain dependant but the guys using these lines generally have half a clue.

[Freelancer]

The best defense against this is firing a second barrel at villain.
Be carefull with this, the villains that do this are usually quite bad and will also call the second barrel making it a even worse situation. So its up to you to identify who to two barrel and who to shut down to (make a hand and stack them).
This is very much read dependant.

[xwillience]

Nice Post Matrix.

here are my thoughts. kind of the same thing just stated differently I guess.

1) missed something or very weak holding. I will call with lots, including the occassional AK if villain has a record.

2) this is a standard play by a TAG. we do it all the time. villains range is wide but because we are OOP and may have to call another bet on the river, its best to just fold without a stronger holding. if villain is a maniac, you could c/c, c/c with soem weaker holdings profitably.

[HitNRunPoster]

When you call, what does he show you?

[xwillience]

[ QUOTE ]
When you call, what does he show you?

[/ QUOTE ]

in Line 1?

he shows missed overs, missed draws, or some weak pair (TPNK/MPGK/33/etc). having to call this can be prevented with a second barrel but of the two lines, im not sure which is more profitable.

[King Spew]

[ QUOTE ]
I keep seeing a particular line from villain that has me confused.

Usually it will go something like this...

Villain limps in EP, I raise in LP. Villain calls, and checks flop. I c-bet, villain smooth calls. Turn is a blank. Villain will check, I'll check behind. River is a blank. Villain leads for pot.
<font color="blue"> I am your villain, Abs. What I have found out about you is (a) you are positionally aware and (b) you don't like to gamble. I will limp in with any kinda hand in just about any seat 38/4/2.5 When you are behind me and raise PF, I then get selective on what I call PF, but always a very playable hand. The flop comes and I will check while assessing what it means to you holding AKo. You pot it without improvement, I'll call if flop even remotely hits me, #3 pair or gutshot. I'll check any turn just to see what you do.... I could've hit a set on the turn and I will still check. When you check turn, It's a green light special for me to lead the river.
This is very read dependent.... but at FT, the weaktighties rule so my line works a bunch. I don't play against other types this way, nor will I do it to you EVERY time.... just enuf to tick you off /images/graemlins/wink.gif</font>
or...

I open in LP or MP, villain calls from LP. I c-bet flop, villain calls. Turn comes, I check, villain makes a pot sized bet...

<font color="blue">You show weakness, I'm BLASTING. It's that simple. </font>

<font color="red">Change you tactics somewhat. CHECK YOUR MONSTER TURNS SOMETIMES!!!!!!!! You Will get my money, it's THAT SIMPLE /images/graemlins/shocked.gif </font>

[/ QUOTE ]

[whodatdare]

Nice post, King. I love the insight here. I had/have a hard time deciphering what to do when opp. floats me. Post flop is where I need help, and this, along with matrix's post help to clear some things up. Now to execute on this. Thanks for bringing up this point, abs.

[Shaddux]

[ QUOTE ]
IF you think villain is floating you (and at uNL not many villains are) raise the turn and shutdown if called.

[/ QUOTE ]
This can get very expensive, but if you have a good read on villain, it is a great move and makes you feel like a total balla when villain folds.

[ QUOTE ]
if the board isn't very drawy and you are playing it passive and calling bets then you can't bail and fold a blank river - if you induce a bluff (or are very likely to have induced a bluff) you gotta call. If your hand is too weak to call a river PSB then fire barrel #2 on the turn.

[/ QUOTE ]
This is good advice. Thanks.

[munkey]

Nice post Matrix

You summarised well -yes I use line 2 too but 2/3pot it too but usually with a pair or some outs.

King Spew i like your thinking of getting in villans shoes.
Nice post too.

I feel I understand these lines much clearer now, from both sides- BTW that fimbulwinter post you quoted I had in my mind today when I let a villan bluff his whole stack off to me by feigning weakness. TK SHIP IT! HOLLA

[absoludicrous]

Matrix - Nice post, thanks for the Fimbulwinter blurb...I'll start incorporating that more often by check/calling my opponents who don't fold to c-bets, and who like to float.

King Spew - Good post also. Appreciate it. I know now how to get your monies /images/graemlins/laugh.gif PM me my screename, and how many hands you have against me. BTW, are you calling me weak/tight!?!?!

[ChipStorm]

[ QUOTE ]
I love that avatar abs

[/ QUOTE ]

[ChipStorm]

matrix and King are bang on. So,

Scenario #1, assuming you have a decent made hand (i.e., an actual decision to make), you should be calling here plenty. You've induced, are very likely ahead, but unlikely to get a raise called by anything you beat. So you call, see a showdown and likely take down the pot.

Scenario #2, you are probably getting played with plenty, so you must play less predictably. On dry flops, c-bet less often, and check/call more, then lead turn to put the proper fear o' God in villain. On wetter flops, c-bet flop, then on a blank turn, stack-a-donk: c/r-ai. That'll slow the bastard down.

[bsheck]

Check behind on a lot of turns with made hands against this villian as long as the board isn't too draw heavy.

[kaz2107]

sick thread. tons of extremly valuable info in here imo. i vote for this to b in the new essential collection sticky

[whodatdare]

I second the motion

[absoludicrous]

Mods. Please put this in the Essential Collection. I think what we've discussed here can impact a player greatly. Not only can it help with extraction from floating opponents, it can help players learn who, when, and when not to 2nd barrel, as well as c-bet.

I'm not saying this because I want a thread I created to be in a sticky. I was hesitant to even post this.

[SykoraG]

I've always thought of this to be my BIGGEST leak in the game. As of late however, I've been fine tuning my Cbets by paying special attention to their postflop fold percentages and aggression. Generally, if I see that villain folds 10/40 hands to flop bet ... I will not cbet him. Additionally, I do not Cbet into a field of more than 2 callers + myself without anything less than TPTK or Pair with FD etc. The easiest play transformation in which I've addapted is becoming more passive against call stations until I have the nuts (at lower levels).
Here's something else new I've introduced into my game having to do with Cbets (example):
Villain is 45 / 18 over 100 hands and folds 6 / 21 flop bets. If I've noticed that he floats my flop bets, c/c turn and then leads for 1/2 the pot on the river, I wait until I have tptk (or better ... but usually not a very strong showdown hand)on a NON drawing board(Ace 8 2 rainbow flop and you are holding Ace King is ideal) and I play the same line as if I'd totally missed the flop. Generally I'll just be calling the river bet and showing down my TPTK because of the possible range of the villain. Usually after something like this happens ... I get floated ALOT less. Again, try taking the same like as if you'd missed the hand, villain may change his mind the next time he decides to float you with air.

PS - Sometimes it feels like as if everyone is floating your cbets ... but really they are actually picking up hands (one of the main symptoms of Tilting is forgetting this). Good luck

[floppy]

[ QUOTE ]
Scenario #2, you are probably getting played with plenty, so you must play less predictably. On dry flops, c-bet less often, and check/call more, then lead turn to put the proper fear o' God in villain. On wetter flops, c-bet flop, then on a blank turn, stack-a-donk: c/r-ai. That'll slow the bastard down.

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm a little confused here. On wetter flops, you're saying villan is FOS, so the c/r-ai is trying to get him to fold, right? So how is this "stack-a-donk", since if he calls you're the one likely getting stacked?

[munkey]

bump because I don't think this is in the Sticky yet...

[HoldenFoldem]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I keep seeing a particular line from villain that has me confused.

Usually it will go something like this...

Villain limps in EP, I raise in LP. Villain calls, and checks flop. I c-bet, villain smooth calls. Turn is a blank. Villain will check, I'll check behind. River is a blank. Villain leads for pot.
<font color="blue"> I am your villain, Abs. What I have found out about you is (a) you are positionally aware and (b) you don't like to gamble. I will limp in with any kinda hand in just about any seat 38/4/2.5 When you are behind me and raise PF, I then get selective on what I call PF, but always a very playable hand. The flop comes and I will check while assessing what it means to you holding AKo. You pot it without improvement, I'll call if flop even remotely hits me, #3 pair or gutshot. I'll check any turn just to see what you do.... I could've hit a set on the turn and I will still check. When you check turn, It's a green light special for me to lead the river.
This is very read dependent.... but at FT, the weaktighties rule so my line works a bunch. I don't play against other types this way, nor will I do it to you EVERY time.... just enuf to tick you off /images/graemlins/wink.gif</font>
or...

I open in LP or MP, villain calls from LP. I c-bet flop, villain calls. Turn comes, I check, villain makes a pot sized bet...

<font color="blue">You show weakness, I'm BLASTING. It's that simple. </font>

<font color="red">Change you tactics somewhat. CHECK YOUR MONSTER TURNS SOMETIMES!!!!!!!! You Will get my money, it's THAT SIMPLE /images/graemlins/shocked.gif </font>

[/ QUOTE ]

[/ QUOTE ]

This sums it up in my book. Sklansky calls this play the 'Call bluff". Defense against it is to occasionally check your strong hands on the turn, and then reraise him when he bets the river. He'll soon find easier prey, rather than mess with you.

[Esmerelda]

Yeah, I take this line on a recidivist c-better (as one I see this line once in while) sometimes. But usually I will bet or raise sooner.

I think it is usually a middling made hand that decided you were weak.

If your c-bets aren't getting respect from some villains I cut back a little on the frequency with that particular villain. I also fire a 2nd barrel more often when I do c-bet them.

[Quebecker]

Interesting Thread ! thx