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View Full Version : Discussion: Villains calling range after Hero 3-bets preflop

Sir Winalot
10-23-2006, 01:13 PM
PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, $0.25 BB (6 handed)

UTG ($25)
MP ($25)
CO ($25)
Hero ($25)
SB ($25)
BB ($25)

Preflop: Hero is Button with X,X.
<font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, <font color="#CC3333">MP raises to $1</font>, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises to $3.5</font>, <font color="#666666">2 fold</font>, MP calls $3.5

On what range of hands do you put MP in the following situations?


1. This is our third hand a the table and MP is a complete unknown.

2. MP is Dr.LAGtard and his stats are 28/18/3.5.

3. MP is Al Foldone, a well known nitster running at 11/4/0.75.

4. The average donk with 53/13/xx.



And for the sake of discussion, I'm gonna take a head start and post my opinion before anyone else gets a chanse, so here goes:

1. I assume 22+, AJ+, KJ+, 78s+ to be something to work further from.

2. Something like 22+, AJ+, KQ, T9s+

3. I put him on TT+, AQ+. Most of the time I exclude AA/KK as I think he'll 4-bet with these.

4. I think this is the most interesting one and IMO there is no hard rule in what they will call with in here. I don't put them on any narrow inky winky range, I just agree that they'll call with pretty much anything from AA-J6o and suppose my hand is good most of the time I flop top pair or better.

Sir Winalot
robinmbuk
10-23-2006, 01:45 PM
1. 88+, AT+, KJ+. Any suited connectors are possible here from a complete unknown.
2. 22-JJ (think laggy player easily reraises QQ+)
3. TT-QQ, AK. Think he folds anything else, reraises AA/KK. I'm sure a very tight player folds AQ here.
4. Massive range of hands here, if your reraise was to say $5 or more then avg donk folds alot of hands which I think he calls with for the extra $2.5 as played. You could easily see any ace, and two broadway cards, any pp above about 66.
Jigsaws
10-23-2006, 01:53 PM
We're assuming Hero is standard TAG?

1: Anything they raised with. It's that simple. Yes, I assume unknowns are donks.

2: LAG *tard* or good LAG? Range for the first one is fairly wide, range for the second one is going to be fairly small because he'll be OOP.

3: TT+, AK. I think that's his raising range *and* his calling range. These tight nits hate to get away from hands. A lot of them will *not* 4-bet AA/KK there. Hell, I don't unless we're deep. They'll definitely call TT-QQ for set value.

4. See 1.
Dave I
10-23-2006, 01:54 PM
I agree with these. But, AQ is not in Mr. Foldone's range here.
Jay Riall
10-23-2006, 02:00 PM
Is 28/18 really a LAGtard? I run at about 25/18 and don't consider myself a LAG really. Far from a nit obviously, but LAG?
Dave I
10-23-2006, 02:04 PM
[ QUOTE ]

3: These tight nits hate to get away from hands.


[/ QUOTE ]

This is true, once they see a flop they never get away from anything except an under-pair or unimproved AK (sometimes not even these).

[ QUOTE ]

A lot of them will *not* 4-bet AA/KK there. Hell, I don't unless we're deep. They'll definitely call TT-QQ for set value.


[/ QUOTE ]

I agree they may not 4-bet AA/KK. But, you don't either? I think it's wrong at this level if so.

FWIW - I think they are wrong too. Reason being, they don't get much from the good players anyway and the bad ones simply don't notice how tight they are and/or call anyway hoping to outflop them. Actually, same reason you should 4-bet.
Dave I
10-23-2006, 02:05 PM
[ QUOTE ]
Is 28/18 really a LAGtard? I run at about 25/18 and don't consider myself a LAG really. Far from a nit obviously, but LAG?

[/ QUOTE ]

Same here depending on conditions.
Jigsaws
10-23-2006, 02:11 PM
[ QUOTE ]
I agree they may not 4-bet AA/KK. But, you don't either? I think it's wrong at this level if so.

[/ QUOTE ]
Well, I'm assuming villain is TAG. So I assume he's paying attention and so knows I don't 4-bet anything else. So I think that if I 4-bet, he folds anything but AA/KK/maaaybe QQ. I'd rather call and shove nearly any flop with 100BB stacks.
Dave I
10-23-2006, 02:22 PM
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I agree they may not 4-bet AA/KK. But, you don't either? I think it's wrong at this level if so.

[/ QUOTE ]
Well, I'm assuming villain is TAG. So I assume he's paying attention and so knows I don't 4-bet anything else. So I think that if I 4-bet, he folds anything but AA/KK/maaaybe QQ. I'd rather call and shove nearly any flop with 100BB stacks.

[/ QUOTE ]

I see. I read it as you never 4-bet.
Yaboosh
10-23-2006, 02:23 PM
[ QUOTE ]
Is 28/18 really a LAGtard? I run at about 25/18 and don't consider myself a LAG really. Far from a nit obviously, but LAG?

[/ QUOTE ]


At 6max? No. At Full Ring? Yes.
wallywojo
10-23-2006, 02:25 PM
[ QUOTE ]

1: Anything they raised with. It's that simple. Yes, I assume unknowns are donks.


[/ QUOTE ]

Is this true for the rest? I start of giving them credit as a competent player at $50 NL. Leak?
Yaboosh
10-23-2006, 02:26 PM
Giving them credit for a much narrower range for calling a 3bet is probably a leak.