Nit vs. Nit

[Dave I]

Villain is about 23/16/2.5 over a decent sample and has been pretty nitty. I am about the same but tighter and just as nitty this session, though not usually. Villain probably knows this.

On our other table villain has been getting pushed around by a maniac for a few decent sized pots. My image is similar on the other table but I have stacked + said maniac. In other words I have a lot of villains money indirectly. This shouldn't matter but I think it does.


Absolute Poker
No Limit Holdem Ring game
Blinds: $0.25/$0.50
4 players
Converter (http://www.neildewhurst.com/hand-converter)

Stack sizes:
Dave: $106
Button: $100.20
SB: $70.97
BB: $50.78

Pre-flop: (4 players) Dave is UTG with A/images/graemlins/club.gif K/images/graemlins/club.gif
<font color="#cc0000">Dave raises to $2.5</font>, Button calls, 2 folds.

Flop: 8/images/graemlins/club.gif 7/images/graemlins/heart.gif A/images/graemlins/heart.gif ($5.75, 2 players)
<font color="#cc0000">Dave bets $5.5</font>, Button calls.

Turn: 2/images/graemlins/club.gif ($16.75, 2 players)
<font color="#cc0000">Dave bets $13.5</font>, Button calls.

River: 4/images/graemlins/diamond.gif ($43.75, 2 players)
<font color="#cc0000">Dave bets $30</font>, <font color="#cc0000">Button raises all-in $78.7</font>, Dave ???

[Jigsaws]

How is 23/16 nitty? As played, fold. I mean... he's not pushing AQ-A9 there unless he's really tilting. I think you see 56 a lot here, actually.

I'd rather check the river and let him bluff hearts or T9.

[wake_up]

C/C river

[Dave I]

[ QUOTE ]
How is 23/16 nitty?

[/ QUOTE ]

Your right it's not. He was nitty this session, which I should have mentioned. Most likely card dead.

[Dave I]

I agree, c/c is the better line.

[Dave I]

[ QUOTE ]
How is 23/16 nitty? As played, fold. I mean... he's not pushing AQ-A9 there unless he's really tilting. I think you see 56 a lot here, actually.

I'd rather check the river and let him bluff hearts or T9.

[/ QUOTE ]

Am I really folding getting 2:1 what could be a busted flush/weaker A/split/bluff (kk, qq, etc)?

AA can be ruled out, I'm pretty sure he raises a set earlier in the hand so realistically 56 is the only hand that could make sense.

[Sir Winalot]

[ QUOTE ]
Am I really folding getting 2:1 what could be a busted flush/weaker A/split/bluff (kk, qq, etc)?

[/ QUOTE ]
For the first you're getting 4:1 odds on the call here. You got yourself into a hell of a mess here dude. You're pretty much pot committed here and you have to call his all-in, allthough there's pretty much nothing you beat here except for air, which I very much doubt he has, because you're 200BB deep. IMO c/c is superiour to any other line here. The rest of the hand looks good to me.

[mother_brain]

Yeah dude, just C/C the same 30 bucks that you bet. Hell i'd almost fold anyway cause how the hell do you win. He may have caught 2 pair with Ax is my guess.

[pokerchap]

do not bet river.

[Dave I]

[ QUOTE ]
For the first you're getting 4:1 odds on the call here.

[/ QUOTE ]

More like 3:1. Pot = $151 and I have $48 to call. At first I was not counting the $48 raise in the pot. Unless I'm still calculating wrong.

Meh, I called because I basically had too and I really couldn't figure what he had unless a set or specifically 56 /images/graemlins/heart.gif. 56 no heart I guess is also possible and would make some sense. I just didn't see him drawing to that with flush draw out there. Two pair is unlikely unless it's 78. I'm pretty sure he raises all these sooner in the hand though except 56 no heart. He's not calling preflop with a worse Ace than AQ.

He had 45o and MHIG /images/graemlins/grin.gif

I agree c/c is probably better, but how much are we calling?

[slickss]

Wow, 45o? Well if he is playing like that he deserves to lose a $200 pot. GC.

[hanster]

Standard

[kurto]

there's a variety of 2 pairs that make sense as well.

[Dave I]

[ QUOTE ]
there's a variety of 2 pairs that make sense as well.

[/ QUOTE ]

78 is the only 2 pair possibility here. I know he is not calling preflop with any other 2 pair. And, I'm pretty sure he raises that 2 pair before the river.

Besides knowing this guy, I suspect that would be the case for most tags. What decent tag calls preflop with Ax or any other possible 2 pair when a 17/x/x or so raises UTG?

[kurto]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
there's a variety of 2 pairs that make sense as well.

[/ QUOTE ]

78 is the only 2 pair possibility here. I know he is not calling preflop with any other 2 pair. And, I'm pretty sure he raises that 2 pair before the river.

Besides knowing this guy, I suspect that would be the case for most tags. What decent tag calls preflop with Ax or any other possible 2 pair when a 17/x/x or so raises UTG?

[/ QUOTE ]

When a guy calls 23% of all hands, wouldn't that include a hell of a lot of weak aces? I lose a lot of pots to people calling with their weak pairs and hitting their 3 outer on the turn or river.

I concede that you obviously have a better read on this player then I do, yet I'm never surprised at the horrible calls that people make (and then river someone). Just putting it out there.

[pokerchap]

wait, you called and he had 45o?

[Dave I]

[ QUOTE ]

When a guy calls 23% of all hands, wouldn't that include a hell of a lot of weak aces? I lose a lot of pots to people calling with their weak pairs and hitting their 3 outer on the turn or river.

I concede that you obviously have a better read on this player then I do, yet I'm never surprised at the horrible calls that people make (and then river someone). Just putting it out there.

[/ QUOTE ]

23% is still pretty tight and he was playing even tighter than that this session. He may limp AXs but I doubt he is calling a raise that came from an even tighter player with those. I would have been shocked if I saw A8/A7 or worse.

Then again I was shocked at what he really did have. I highly expected a busted draw or a bluff with something like AQ/QQ, a split, or that I was crushed by set/straight.

[wdead]

EZ fold nice hand

[Shaddux]

[ QUOTE ]
IMO c/c is superiour to any other line here.

[/ QUOTE ]
I c/c as much money as I would normally lead for.

[Oranzith]

Why are not we not value betting here? What are we really scared of? 56 / 78 / Ax 2 pair or AA? Two busted flush draws out there are out there, and good/nitty player normally wouldn't be calling down to the river with bad pot odds (although i guess there would be implied odds seeing the pot pot push theory goin). We are laying down 3:1 because we fear 3 hands that don't make much sense?

Can someone explain this to me? I don't doubt everyone's logic, but also don't really see how we feel so strongly we are burned

[mother_brain]

Sets that like to bust AA and AK

more importantly any bet we make gives us odds to call a reraise all in (like the way the hand played) and normally we are toast when that happens.

[Shaddux]

If you were/are a nit, and you know that your opponent (i.e. Dave I) is a nit, what kind of hand are you calling down 3 psbs with? What kind of hand are you raising an obvious river value bet with? I don't see nits shoving busted draws too often.

That was more or less what I considered while reading this hand.

[lacrymosa]

I fold as played. I would check river though.

[kurto]

Clearly the guy was calling much looser then you expected. sheesh, 4 outs.

I usually find people surprise me more making bad calls then smart ones.

I think the most difficult thing at playing poker at these levels is trying to figure out what players are actually playing smart. So often some of the biggest pots i see are one person with a real and 2 or 3 people who have no business being in a hand. Its tough to put mediocre players on a hand!

[Dave I]

He is decent. I'm pretty sure it was tilt from the maniac on our other table. It factored into why I bet and called the river. Plus, I just can see any made hand not raising the turn with a million draws out there.