AKs TPTK + NFD Is this always an instacall?

[tomonbass]

No reads

Full Tilt Poker
No Limit Holdem Ring game
Blinds: $0.25/$0.50
7 players
Converter (http://www.neildewhurst.com/hand-converter)

Stack sizes:
UTG: $63.30
Tomonbass: $62.40
MP1: $14.45
CO: $36.50
Button: $43.25
SB: $49.05
BB: $50.75

Pre-flop: (7 players) Tomonbass is UTG+1 with A/images/graemlins/club.gif K/images/graemlins/club.gif
<font color="#cc0000">UTG raises to $1.75</font>, Tomonbass calls, 5 folds.

Flop: K/images/graemlins/diamond.gif 7/images/graemlins/club.gif 5/images/graemlins/club.gif ($4.25, 2 players)
<font color="#cc0000">UTG bets $3</font>, <font color="#cc0000">Tomonbass raises to $8.5</font>, <font color="#cc0000">UTG raises all-in $61.55</font>,Tomonbass ?

[hanster]

Call. At best you're freerolling, at worst you're up against a set but you have 9 outs. Why don't you r/r pf?

[tomonbass]

I wanted someone else in this pot with us....

[Oranzith]

no you dont want someone else in the pot with you. AKs is a heads up hand, against lots of opponents you are more likely to get outdrawn.

[tomonbass]

I dont mind another caller in this spot... and besides I dont have the lead here I'd want at least 1 more person in this pot...

AK isnt the hardest hand in the world to get away from if necessary...

[ronitonline]

Winning a bunch of small pots is better than always trying to win huge pots and eventually getting sucked out on a lot.
You never want multiple callers really, you have a less chance of winning the pot, less chance of a C-bet working if you miss the flop, and is harder to concentrate on whats going on in the hand.

[Mjafish]

reraise pf, raise more on flop (to $10-$12, not $8), call push.

[PLOlover]

[ QUOTE ]
no you dont want someone else in the pot with you.

[/ QUOTE ]

What I took from the statement is that there was a megafish at the table and OP didn't want to shut him out. Just my 2cents.

[ama0330]

3 bet preflop, and call this immediately. Put your house on it if possible. I'd raise more on the flop too, you dont want him to flat call and leave you with an awkward stack size on the turn.

[gimmetheloot]

Tomon, werent you saying you played a LAG game? lolol.

Reraise this [censored] preflop.

Call this so fast you make a sonic boom.

[munkey]

I call this everyday (I'm playing).

His range is set,AA, flush draw, Ax weaker kicker, spade/str8 combo draw.

You are only beaten by a set, dominate TPGK hands and flush draws like others have said so

[ QUOTE ]

Call this so fast you make a sonic boom all the chips end up in my stack at the next table.


[/ QUOTE ]

FYP

[tomonbass]

I dont understand why the call pf is so wrong...

AK is a drawing hand at best and will on most occasions need to improve to win...

Someone has already taken the lead in this hand and I dont think AK at this stage of the hand is ahead....

Also as it is a drawing hand arent I giving myself a chance to maximise my hands potential value by hopefully getting another player to tag along in this pot...

I think a raise here just scares off potential value and leaves me in a vunerable position pf if I get reraised.. and postflop if I miss my hand and face strong action against me....

I am a LAG player gimmie but just because your LAG doesnt mean that you have to raise the arse off of every pot you get involved in...

Also I like to have the lead in a hand so if someone gets there before me I have to change gears and slow down its the same with smaller pairs and small suited connectors... your all so keen to get alot of money in preflop whereas OOP I just play these hands to see a flop instead of running the risk of being raised off my hand preflop...

And IMO thats what raising here would do... It would give my opponents in a better position... or even the OR an opportunity to raise me off a hand that I would really like to see a flop with... If someone decides that after I reraise preflop to push with a decent pp or even a hand as bad as AQ Im in a tough spot where I probably have to fold (wasting the amount I reraise)or put a large amount of my stack in the middle when Im a slight Dawg at best to a coinflip or at worst I could be completely dominated by AA/KK...

There are better spots than this to push the action pf IMO.

[4_2_it]

tomon,

I want to address your understanding of AK being a drawing hand becuase I think that is a fallacy that many people hold.

Pre-flop, AKs is a monster. It dominates all non-paired hands. It is a coin flip against 22-QQ. It is in okay shape against KK (65/35). The only hand that it fears pre-flop is AA.

In fact, if you 3-bet shoved pre-flop every time with AKs you probably are not making a mistake.

In early position or in the binds, you should be 3-betting instead of calling OOP a good % of time.

If you have NLT&amp;P then take a look at Miller's and Sklansky's thoughts on AK and I think you may change your mind.

[tomonbass]

42it I couldnt agree more with you that AK is a monster hand preflop...

I compleatly disagree with the If you 3/bet pushed preflop all the time that you wouldn't be making a mistake...

Going all in when you are only looking at domination AA/KK or when you are underdog to any other pair is a huge mistake.. You are going to lose slightly more than half the time against 22-QQ and much more of the time against KK/AA I cant see how that is a good spot to get your money in...

AK isnt even favorite against 22 when run against each other Hot and Cold as you probably well know...

I dont have NLT&amp;P as yet but it is on my Amazon wish list...

The only thing that helps you with a pf push is the FE you create.... but at these levels of poker I dont think you can find too many of these players that will give up on a decent pp.

[kazana]

The last 5 hands that called my preflop all-ins were AQo, AKo, JJ, 66, and KQs. And yes, that was at 50NL. Feel free to do some EV calculations.

I think you overestimate the folding skills of average villains at 50NL. You won't only get called by pocket pairs.

Trust 42it on this one.

[King Spew]

Without reads, even my pansie little arse is raising PF and I'm the King of passiveness.

On the flop, I only have one question. If you aren't going to push it all in calling this... WHY are you even playing poker? Yes, this is always an instacall.

[matrix]

Board: Kd 7c 5c
Dead:

equity (%) win (%) tie (%)
Hand 1: 58.7879 % 58.79% 00.00% { AcKc }
Hand 2: 41.2121 % 41.21% 00.00% { QQ+, 77, 55, QcJc }

you are 60/40 vs a reasonable range for villain - we don't need no FE - this is an instacall and it's not even close.

[munkey]

[ QUOTE ]


If you have NLT&amp;P then take a look at Miller's and Sklansky's thoughts on AK and I think you may change your mind.



[/ QUOTE ]

I'm reading NLHTAP at the moment - any specific pages/parts about AK that you had in mind 4_2_it when making this comment or just a general feel from reading the book.

I'm not au fait with it yet( only got it a while ago)- it doesn't yet look like the dog ate it like my HOH and SSHE copies..

I'll probably go through the index list - it does look light there's about 40 references for 'ace king'.../images/graemlins/shocked.gif
- mucha bedtime reading.

[4_2_it]

[ QUOTE ]


I compleatly disagree with the If you 3/bet pushed preflop all the time that you wouldn't be making a mistake...

[/ QUOTE ]

Let me clarify, by mistake, I am referring to a Fundamental Theorem of Poker mistake. Obviously, blindly shoving with AK is not optimal play in most situations against most villains.

My main point is that AK holds up very well vs. the range of the average uNL villain. Throw in even a small bit of FE and you can see why I think it is good to play it very aggressively pre-flop (especially OOP).

[tomonbass]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]


I compleatly disagree with the If you 3/bet pushed preflop all the time that you wouldn't be making a mistake...

[/ QUOTE ]

Let me clarify, by mistake, I am referring to a Fundamental Theorem of Poker mistake. Obviously, blindly shoving with AK is not optimal play in most situations against most villains.

My main point is that AK holds up very well vs. the range of the average uNL villain. Throw in even a small bit of FE and you can see why I think it is good to play it very aggressively pre-flop (especially OOP).

[/ QUOTE ]

Fair point... I like how you have supported your advice with a reasonable explaination...

Much apprechiated TY /images/graemlins/smile.gif

[4_2_it]

munkey,

I do not have the book in front of me, but there is either a short chapter or a concept that discusses how powerful AK is pre-flop. When you find it, you will know it becuase I pretty much plagiarized it in my post.

[King Spew]

pg. 259

[munkey]

Tks King Spew and 4_2_it

Yep I think that's the concept which 4_2_it is on about.
Excellent.

I'll properly read it later (off to training)- I'm gonna go through the ace king index anyway - might as well as an exercise and see what I can learn.

I remember a MSNLer posted once about AK's properties as a hand to make others fold. If we reraise preflop medium and lower pocket pairs are marginal set odds, we dominate Ax and hold an ace and a king so the chance of being vs AA or KK is lower (1/2 acoording to NLHTAP). It does seeem to ahve alot FE.

I think it is good to reraise AK but I rarely do it OOP.

Say UTG PFR do most of you reraise in the BB?
what if CO/BTN calls too,to make it multiway?

I tend to call in this situation - which might change after reading this concept. My reasoning was that I didn't want to build a big pot OOP.

Thoughts?

[4_2_it]

munkey,

I am more apt to re-raise with AK OOP for several reasons:

1) Take it down pre-flop. It's always nice to win 5 or so bbs with A high
2) Take control of the hand and win with a c-bet on a dry flop. If your c-bet is called you can shut down unimproved.
3) Playing OOP sucks, but it sucks less when you have the initiative.
4) Once you get comfortable playing AK this way, you can start re-raising other hands if you are getting too much respect.
5) If you are playing with 100bb stacks, you can still find a fold if you are 4-bet pre-flop.

[pokerchap]

INSTA CALL!

[munkey]

4_2_it

Thanks,
I will try reraisng AK OOP more - I see you magnify AK advantages preflop and on the flop on the streets where it plays best. Expect some postage of hands where I get past the flop coming...

BTW other relevant AK parts of NLHTAP I found by going throught the index for anyone that's interested:
You'll have to read them to see what they say - I don't want to infringe copyright - I don't think it will detract too much from the discussion as most uNLers prob have the book(or should).


p.259 as King Spew found is concept 22 4_2_it was describing.

p.79
p.114
p.129
p.188

[PLOlover]

[ QUOTE ]
Board: Kd 7c 5c
Dead:

equity (%) win (%) tie (%)
Hand 1: 58.7879 % 58.79% 00.00% { AcKc }
Hand 2: 41.2121 % 41.21% 00.00% { QQ+, 77, 55, QcJc }

you are 60/40 vs a reasonable range for villain - we don't need no FE - this is an instacall and it's not even close.

[/ QUOTE ]

Board: Kd 7c 5c
Dead:

equity (%) win (%) tie (%)
Hand 1: 49.6078 % 38.38% 11.23% { AcKc }
Hand 2: 50.3922 % 39.16% 11.23% { KK+, 77, 55, AhKh, AsKs, QcJc, AKo }

Seems more reasonable to me, still insta-call.

-------------------------------------------
Board: Kd 7c 5c
Dead:

equity (%) win (%) tie (%)
Hand 1: 39.4766 % 39.48% 00.00% { AcKc }
Hand 2: 60.5234 % 60.52% 00.00% { KK+, 77, 55, QcJc }

Ok, here against a very tight player you have to factor in the dead money and stuff and are probably taking a little bit the worst of it and it seems to me a call is EV neutral.