**uNL Concept of the week: Week 1, Floating:** [Archive]

EMc

10-22-2006, 10:10 AM

NL is a complex game. We all know this. Sure, you get 2 cards, but the game is far more than just the 2 in your hand and the 5 on the board. For the next few weeks, uNL is going to have a concept of the week thread discussing a certain concept or theory in NL Hold'em.

In this thread you should post HH's showing situations where the concept was applied effectively as well as examples of poor usage of the concept. Also, please debate over various aspects of the concept and it's pro's and con's.

--------
Week 1,Floating:

What is Floating?
Generally speaking, floating is calling a bet in position on an earlier round of betting, typically the flop, with the intention of betting later should the conditions become available. Usually the goal of the float is to get a marginally better hand to fold or to extract value with a marginal hand.

Who to Float?
I have found via experience that the best players to float are TAGs that can lay down a hand when beat, and players that habitually continuation bet (Except me. Never float me.)

What hands to float with?

Theoretically, I guess one could float with any two cards. However, usually it is best to float in my opinion with mid to low pocket pairs, and mid pairs on the board, or decent, but not strong draws. Some call it value betting, but to me thats floating.

example hand:

Full Tilt Poker
No Limit Holdem Ring game
Blinds: $0.50/$1
6 players
Converter (http://www.neildewhurst.com/hand-converter)

Stack sizes:
UTG: $95.25
UTG+1: $146.95
EMc: $99.50
Button: $34.45
SB: $69.25
BB: $51.75

Pre-flop: (6 players) EMc is CO with 6/images/graemlins/heart.gif 6/images/graemlins/club.gif
UTG folds, UTG+1 raises to $3, EMc calls, 3 folds.

Flop: 8/images/graemlins/spade.gif 8/images/graemlins/diamond.gif 2/images/graemlins/club.gif ($7.5, 2 players)
UTG+1 bets $4, EMc calls.

Turn: 5/images/graemlins/heart.gif ($15.5, 2 players)
UTG+1 bets $7, EMc raises to $21, UTG+1 Folds

------

This is the first week so if anyone has any suggestions please PM them to me, NOT, I repeat NOT, post them. Lets keep this thread on target.

Heine

10-22-2006, 10:35 AM

[ QUOTE ]
Who to Float?
I have found via experience that the best players to float are TAGs that can lay down a hand when beat, and players that habitually continuation bet (Except me. Never float me, or Heine)

[/ QUOTE ]

the machine

10-22-2006, 11:04 AM

very nice Edwardo

in the hand you posted though i feel that this is more for value. it is very possible we have the best hand here.

IMO i feel a "true" float is when we are calling someones bet regardless of what we have so we can make a stab at the pot on another street. It not a strategy i recomend to all people to use. I tend to use it if I think the player is really bad and i can move him off the pot with a simple bet when checked to. Or I also like to use it against players that i thnk are good. One of the tools I incorporate with my floating is the possible outs it looks like my hand has. 3rd level thinking, what do we think our opponent thinks we have.

When there are 2 spades on the flop and our opponent bets we call behind, turn is a third spade. he checks we bet out 2/3 pot. Villain folds. we had K/images/graemlins/heart.gifJ/images/graemlins/diamond.gif.

i dont recomend doing this alot but this is what i consider a float. Also, calling with nothing and no draw because i see over 1000 hands villains stats are 33/22/3.5 with 100% C-Betting. I know he cant hit the flop everytime so i call behind to get a check from him on the turn and i can make a bet. Obviously this is player dependent/flop dependent and probably shouldnt be done that often

While most of this is not very uSNL friendly its just my opinion

Jigsaws

10-22-2006, 11:17 AM

I hate getting floated:

Poker Stars
No Limit Holdem Ring game
Blinds: $0.25/$0.50
5 players
Converter (http://www.neildewhurst.com/hand-converter)

Stack sizes:
UTG: $26.80
Hero: $55.50
Button: $128.70
SB: $46.75
BB: $18.65

Pre-flop: (5 players) Hero is CO with J/images/graemlins/diamond.gif Q/images/graemlins/club.gif
UTG folds, Hero raises to $2, Button calls, 2 folds.

Flop: T/images/graemlins/diamond.gif 2/images/graemlins/spade.gif 9/images/graemlins/diamond.gif ($4.75, 2 players)
Hero bets $3.5, Button calls.

Turn: 4/images/graemlins/diamond.gif ($11.75, 2 players)
Hero bets $8, Button raises to $18.5, Hero folds.
Uncalled bets: $10.5 returned to Button.

Button shows KdQh???

Results:
Final pot: $25.75

redCashion

10-22-2006, 11:21 AM

This is a play I've only recently added to my arsenal. It is one of the most satisfying plays IMO because you are creating value essentially from nothing. Here was a float play made in a session this morning against a guy with stats like 25/13/4. The key IMO is finding guys who will only fire one bullet, since there is no way I call a turn bet here.

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, $0.50 BB (9 handed) internettexasholdem.com (http://www.internettexasholdem.com)

Hero ($55.85)
MP3 ($38.70)
CO ($26)
Button ($37.40)
SB ($15.75)
BB ($131.90)
UTG ($49.20)
UTG+1 ($98.30)
MP1 ($36.10)

Preflop: Hero is MP2 with Q/images/graemlins/club.gif, K/images/graemlins/club.gif. CO posts a blind of $0.50.
1 fold, UTG+1 raises to $2.5, 1 fold, Hero calls $2.50, 5 folds.

Flop: ($6.25) 6/images/graemlins/heart.gif, J/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, 8/images/graemlins/diamond.gif (2 players)
UTG+1 bets $4, Hero calls $4.

Turn: ($14.25) 2/images/graemlins/heart.gif (2 players)
UTG+1 checks, Hero bets $10.5, UTG+1 folds.

Final Pot: $24.75

the machine

10-22-2006, 11:32 AM

[ QUOTE ]
This is a play I've only recently added to my arsenal. It is one of the most satisfying plays IMO because you are creating value essentially from nothing. Here was a float play made in a session this morning against a guy with stats like 25/13/4. The key IMO is finding guys who will only fire one bullet, since there is no way I call a turn bet here.

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, $0.50 BB (9 handed) internettexasholdem.com (http://www.internettexasholdem.com)

Hero ($55.85)
MP3 ($38.70)
CO ($26)
Button ($37.40)
SB ($15.75)
BB ($131.90)
UTG ($49.20)
UTG+1 ($98.30)
MP1 ($36.10)

Preflop: Hero is MP2 with Q/images/graemlins/club.gif, K/images/graemlins/club.gif. CO posts a blind of $0.50.
1 fold, UTG+1 raises to $2.5, 1 fold, Hero calls $2.50, 5 folds.

Flop: ($6.25) 6/images/graemlins/heart.gif, J/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, 8/images/graemlins/diamond.gif (2 players)
UTG+1 bets $4, Hero calls $4.

Turn: ($14.25) 2/images/graemlins/heart.gif (2 players)
UTG+1 checks, Hero bets $10.5, UTG+1 folds.

Final Pot: $24.75

[/ QUOTE ]

this is what i consider to be true floating

Freelancer

10-22-2006, 11:45 AM

I'm going to follow this thread closely, I've tried to float several times so far and I'm -EV overal. I have a feeling I am targeting to many weak/bad players, it works best against basic ABC TAGS. I also usually fold to a turn bet if I am planning to float.

BombayBadboy

10-22-2006, 11:49 AM

Hah, floaters are -EV for me. I get really annoyed when people always call flop bets. It sets me off, really. I need to work on that. This is something I'm going to pay attention to next week. I'll try to float some TAGs and punish the floaters (c/r all in baby! /images/graemlins/smile.gif)

On a sidenote, I really really like this idea of discussing a concept a week. Thumbs up.

redCashion

10-22-2006, 11:57 AM

The key to finding people to float against for me has been looking at their preflop raising percentages. If it's over 10 they are raising with some very sub-premium hands and are relying on cbetting to make it profitable. Also, the combination of high preflop raising, and low flop aggression is a good one because they are less likely to fire back at you with air if they check the turn.

tubasteve

10-22-2006, 11:57 AM

I wouldn't recommend floating a whole lot at NL50 and lower...it's a fine tool at times but I'm afraid people are gonna read this thread and start calling flop bets with ATC in position. Don't get carried away. /images/graemlins/smile.gif

redCashion

10-22-2006, 11:59 AM

Murd0c

10-22-2006, 12:01 PM

Here's an example of when it got down to headsup at one of my 6max tables:

Full Tilt Poker
No Limit Holdem Ring game
Blinds: $0.10/$0.25
2 players
Converter (http://www.neildewhurst.com/hand-converter)

Stack sizes:
Hero: $45.95
BB: $24.15

Pre-flop: (2 players) Hero is SB with 6/images/graemlins/spade.gif 7/images/graemlins/club.gif
Hero raises to $0.75, BB calls.

Headsup I'm raising pretty much everything on the button that isn't total crap (27o,K2o,94o etc).

Flop: Q/images/graemlins/club.gif 3/images/graemlins/heart.gif Q/images/graemlins/diamond.gif ($1.5, 2 players)
BB bets $0.75, Hero calls.

Villain bet's out on a dry board. His bet is weak and I could raise it here but I decide to go for a float.

Turn: J/images/graemlins/spade.gif ($3, 2 players)
BB bets $0.75, Hero raises to $3.5, BB folds.
Uncalled bets: $2.75 returned to Hero.

Perfect, his weak bet combined with the J hitting on the turn and my position and preflop aggression allow me to effectively pull off a float here.

Results:
Final pot: $4.5

Here's an example of how NOT to float:

Villain is an Ultra-Aggressor

Full Tilt Poker
No Limit Holdem Ring game
Blinds: $0.10/$0.25
4 players
Converter (http://www.neildewhurst.com/hand-converter)

Stack sizes:
UTG: $26.05
Hero: $24.65
SB: $60.95
BB: $20.15

Pre-flop: (4 players) Hero is Button with 4/images/graemlins/diamond.gif 4/images/graemlins/club.gif
UTG folds, Hero raises to $0.85, SB calls, BB folds.

Flop: A/images/graemlins/heart.gif 9/images/graemlins/diamond.gif J/images/graemlins/club.gif ($1.95, 2 players)
SB bets $1.25, Hero calls.

Villain leads into me for ~2/3 pot. Looks like a weak ace, Jack, or straight draw. I call with the intention to float and bluff the turn.

Turn: 6/images/graemlins/diamond.gif ($4.45, 2 players)
SB bets $2.25, Hero raises to $7, SB calls.

Villain makes another weakish bet. I raise to 7 which now that I look at it looks a bit too small. In retrospect I probably should have raised to ~$8.5.

River: 3/images/graemlins/spade.gif ($18.45, 2 players)
SB checks, Hero bets $10, SB folds.
Uncalled bets: $10 returned to Hero.

Villain checks once more. Unless he's feigning weakness there's a reasonable chance I can move him off his hand. His play seems most consistent with some kind of draw or a weakish Ace. At the end I bet $10 when I should have just moved all-in. If he does have an ace he may have a hard time folding on the river getting 3 to 1 on his money. Alternatively I could have bet around ~1/3 the pot trying to get him to fold a draw or let him mind [censored] himself into thinking his Ace isn't good, but I think he folds dramatically less for that kind of bet.

Results:
Final pot: $18.45

So floating is a play I very rarely use at these levels. When I do use it though it does seem to work rather well. I try not to overuse it because it encourages people to fire 2nd barrels at you w/ nothing which can make playing hands difficult. My ideal situation would be having someone OOP make a weak bet into me when I have position and I'm the preflop raiser.

jonyy6788

10-22-2006, 12:01 PM

It helps if you can float in position in my opinion b/c you know if they intend to fire that 2nd bullet or not.

Murd0c

10-22-2006, 12:10 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Hah, floaters are -EV for me. I get really annoyed when people always call flop bets. It sets me off, really. I need to work on that. This is something I'm going to pay attention to next week. I'll try to float some TAGs and punish the floaters (c/r all in baby! /images/graemlins/smile.gif)

On a sidenote, I really really like this idea of discussing a concept a week. Thumbs up.

[/ QUOTE ]

If you wanna stop floaters fire the 2nd barrel more. Pretty much any time I'm in the SB in a blind-on-blind confrontation I'm firing the second barrel against any TAG or LAG if they flat call the flop.

They know I probably don't have great hand preflop so they're gunna call with position. On the flop they'll then predictably call my flop bet figuring (incorrectly) I won't fire a 2nd bullet. Yet 90% of the time I'm firing a 2nd bullet making them think twice the next time they're thinking about floating me.

BTW are you related to tuff_fish? /images/graemlins/grin.gif

marvin_1935

10-22-2006, 12:12 PM

it's not really floating if you're the pfr, in your 1st example, you could have raised the flop and gotten the same result. in addition, if he really does have a Q, you get away cheaper by raising the flop than waiting till the turn. in the 2nd example you're bluffing not floating.

orange

10-22-2006, 12:21 PM

I typically like floating under a few conditions:
-You know your opponent and have a good idea of his hand range. These opponents are typically TAGs or passives...(Floating LAGs can be a problem sometimes).
-(Most times) you have a hand that can improve, and if you do so, it will be very deceptive.
-The board is good for a float.

So...how does this all tie together?

ex: Villan is a TAG, 19/12/3, whatever, standard. He opens in CO, you call otb with QJ/images/graemlins/diamond.gif/99 (take your pick). You know he has a high c-bet frequency and will stab at almost every pot on the flop no matter what his hand. All else fold.

Flop comes T/images/graemlins/diamond.gif3/images/graemlins/heart.gif8/images/graemlins/spade.gif. He bets 2/3rds pot.

Here is a good flop to float with either QJs/99 IMO. Both hands are deceptive if they improve and if villan has any sort of big hand at all(overpair/set/etc), we can generally stack him if we hit. Thats not to say that I won't float with complete air at times, but I generally like to have a few extra outs when floating.

So, the turn card is highly dependent on the action, if its a blank and he bets again, I'll typically fold, if we improve (w. a /images/graemlins/diamond.gif or straight or set) then we can play accordingly.

When I say a good board to do it on, I mean a board that is not as likely to hit villan's hand. So if he raised pf, I wouldnt float on a board of like AJQ with 66. Nor would I typically float with a mid pp on a AKx board or whatever. Ideally, only 1 paint card tops and semi drawless works best I think.

The better types of players to float are the TAGs and passives, as stated before. LAGs may double barrel/c/r a bit too often (which is the correct strategy vs. floaters). Really know your opponent...you can try and test your floats vs. an unknown and get some info on his postflop tendencies (if he cbets alot/double barrels/etc).

I wouldn't worry about floating as much at lower limits. Players will call down with alot lighter stuff and are alot more passive. I would wait until probably 100nl to start doing so more frequently.

How do you counter floating? Pretty easy I think...start c/r-ing and double barreling more. If you suspect being floated, just start doing a few other plays with or without a hand. For instance:

I had A/images/graemlins/diamond.gif9/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, raised pf, a TAG called. flop came 9/images/graemlins/spade.gifK/images/graemlins/diamond.gif3/images/graemlins/heart.gif. I c-bet, he called. turn came 4/images/graemlins/diamond.gif and I c/r-ed all in after he bet.

So, yeah, sorry a bit long, probably can elaborate a bit more too, but cant really think of too much right now.

King Spew

10-22-2006, 12:29 PM

[ QUOTE ]
I wouldn't recommend floating a whole lot at NL50 and lower...it's a fine tool at times but I'm afraid people are gonna read this thread and start calling flop bets with ATC in position. Don't get carried away. /images/graemlins/smile.gif

[/ QUOTE ]

I love Floaters /images/graemlins/heart.gif on the $50 tables. If I'm playing OOP, I will have a good hand. That being said, I'll fire on the flop to see where the action is going to come from. I'll check the turn to a floater and jack his butt /images/graemlins/smile.gif
Very EV+

ama0330

10-22-2006, 12:33 PM

Party Poker No-Limit Hold'em, $ BB (6 handed) Hand History Converter Tool (http://poker-tools.flopturnriver.com/Hand-Converter.php) from FlopTurnRiver.com (http://www.flopturnriver.com) (Format: 2+2 Forums)

BB ($15.28)
UTG ($23.15)
MP ($27.95)
Hero ($28.05)
Button ($37.62)
SB ($23.25)

Preflop: Hero is CO with 6/images/graemlins/spade.gif, 6/images/graemlins/heart.gif. SB posts a blind of $0.10.
1 fold, MP calls $0.25, Hero raises to $1.25, 3 folds, MP calls $1.

Flop: ($2.85) T/images/graemlins/heart.gif, 7/images/graemlins/club.gif, 7/images/graemlins/diamond.gif (2 players)
MP bets $2, Hero calls $2.

Turn: ($6.85) A/images/graemlins/club.gif (2 players)
MP checks, Hero bets $6, MP folds.

Final Pot: $12.85

Results in white below:
No showdown. Hero wins $12.85.

InfectorGadget

10-22-2006, 12:42 PM

Great idea EMcWilliams, and many good responses thus far too!

Pokey

10-22-2006, 01:22 PM

Here are some more unusual types of floats, all from various 2+2 tables.

Hand #1: pre-flop float.

Villain (BB) is The Grunch.

Full Tilt Poker
No Limit Holdem Ring game
Blinds: $0.05/$0.10
9 players
Converter (http://www.neildewhurst.com/hand-converter)

Stack sizes:
UTG: $10.30
UTG+1: $4.15
MP1: $1.75
Pokey: $14.55
MP3: $35.15
CO: $53.50
Button: $35.20
SB: $25.85
BB: $10

Pre-flop: (9 players) Pokey is MP2 with K/images/graemlins/diamond.gif J/images/graemlins/club.gif
UTG raises to $0.2, 2 folds, Pokey calls, 2 folds, Button calls, SB folds, BB raises to $1.05, UTG calls, Pokey calls, Button calls.

My hand isn't strong enough to survive the preflop reraise on merits alone; this call is a float with position.

Flop: Q/images/graemlins/spade.gif Q/images/graemlins/diamond.gif 2/images/graemlins/diamond.gif ($4.25, 4 players)
BB checks, UTG checks, Pokey bets $2, 3 folds.
Uncalled bets: $2 returned to Pokey.

Grunch gives up on the hand, and I pounce.

----------

Hand #2: floating the donk-bettor.

Villain (SB) is non-2+2, but villain is also scared of me.

Full Tilt Poker
No Limit Holdem Ring game
Blinds: $0.05/$0.10
6 players
Converter (http://www.neildewhurst.com/hand-converter)

Stack sizes:
UTG: $49.05
UTG+1: $11.50
CO: $10.30
Button: $10.40
SB: $8.15
Pokey: $10.70

Pre-flop: (6 players) Pokey is BB with 8/images/graemlins/heart.gif 3/images/graemlins/heart.gif
4 folds, SB calls, Pokey raises to $0.4, SB calls.

Heads-up with position I raise. My cards are mostly irrelevant, but being suited is a tiny plus. I can do this with any two cards, though. (Oh, and 83s is about as close to ATC as you can get.)

Flop: 3/images/graemlins/spade.gif Q/images/graemlins/diamond.gif 7/images/graemlins/heart.gif ($0.8, 2 players)
SB bets $1, Pokey calls.

Donkbetting? How cute! We'll see what you think on the turn.

Turn: T/images/graemlins/diamond.gif ($2.8, 2 players)
SB bets $1, Pokey raises to $3, SB folds.
Uncalled bets: $2 returned to Pokey.

Same-sized bet looks scared to me, so I raise it. Sure enough, he walks away.

----------

Hand #3: An OOP float.

(Beware -- these are harder to pull off, folks.)

Villain (BB) is Leviathan101.

Full Tilt Poker
No Limit Holdem Ring game
Blinds: $0.05/$0.10
6 players
Converter (http://www.neildewhurst.com/hand-converter)

Stack sizes:
UTG: $10.25
UTG+1: $18.70
CO: $18.35
Button: $9.80
Pokey: $13.75
BB: $52.10

Pre-flop: (6 players) Pokey is SB with 6/images/graemlins/club.gif 5/images/graemlins/diamond.gif
4 folds, Pokey calls, BB raises to $0.2, Pokey calls.

Crap hand, but I have lots of folding equity.

Flop: 8/images/graemlins/spade.gif 8/images/graemlins/club.gif A/images/graemlins/diamond.gif ($0.4, 2 players)
Pokey checks, BB bets $0.1, Pokey calls.

Either he has it or he doesn't, and this bet doesn't answer the question. Let's see the turn.

Turn: 2/images/graemlins/club.gif ($0.6, 2 players)
Pokey checks, BB checks.

No joy for BB; time to make a play at the pot.

River: 5/images/graemlins/club.gif ($0.6, 2 players)
Pokey bets $0.5, BB folds.
Uncalled bets: $0.5 returned to Pokey.

Taking advantage of the scare card.

kaz2107

10-22-2006, 01:25 PM

[ QUOTE ]
I typically like floating under a few conditions:
-You know your opponent and have a good idea of his hand range. These opponents are typically TAGs or passives...(Floating LAGs can be a problem sometimes).
-(Most times) you have a hand that can improve, and if you do so, it will be very deceptive.
-The board is good for a float.

So...how does this all tie together?

ex: Villan is a TAG, 19/12/3, whatever, standard. He opens in CO, you call otb with QJ/images/graemlins/diamond.gif/99 (take your pick). You know he has a high c-bet frequency and will stab at almost every pot on the flop no matter what his hand. All else fold.

Flop comes T/images/graemlins/diamond.gif3/images/graemlins/heart.gif8/images/graemlins/spade.gif. He bets 2/3rds pot.

Here is a good flop to float with either QJs/99 IMO. Both hands are deceptive if they improve and if villan has any sort of big hand at all(overpair/set/etc), we can generally stack him if we hit. Thats not to say that I won't float with complete air at times, but I generally like to have a few extra outs when floating.

So, the turn card is highly dependent on the action, if its a blank and he bets again, I'll typically fold, if we improve (w. a /images/graemlins/diamond.gif or straight or set) then we can play accordingly.

When I say a good board to do it on, I mean a board that is not as likely to hit villan's hand. So if he raised pf, I wouldnt float on a board of like AJQ with 66. Nor would I typically float with a mid pp on a AKx board or whatever. Ideally, only 1 paint card tops and semi drawless works best I think.

The better types of players to float are the TAGs and passives, as stated before. LAGs may double barrel/c/r a bit too often (which is the correct strategy vs. floaters). Really know your opponent...you can try and test your floats vs. an unknown and get some info on his postflop tendencies (if he cbets alot/double barrels/etc).

I wouldn't worry about floating as much at lower limits. Players will call down with alot lighter stuff and are alot more passive. I would wait until probably 100nl to start doing so more frequently.

How do you counter floating? Pretty easy I think...start c/r-ing and double barreling more. If you suspect being floated, just start doing a few other plays with or without a hand. For instance:

I had A/images/graemlins/diamond.gif9/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, raised pf, a TAG called. flop came 9/images/graemlins/spade.gifK/images/graemlins/diamond.gif3/images/graemlins/heart.gif. I c-bet, he called. turn came 4/images/graemlins/diamond.gif and I c/r-ed all in after he bet.

So, yeah, sorry a bit long, probably can elaborate a bit more too, but cant really think of too much right now.

[/ QUOTE ]

nice post /images/graemlins/smile.gif

ajmargarine

10-22-2006, 01:45 PM

Floating to rep the scare cards. /images/graemlins/blush.gif

Full Tilt Poker
No Limit Holdem Ring game
Blinds: $0.25/$0.50
6 players
Converter (http://www.neildewhurst.com/hand-converter)

Stack sizes:
UTG: $46.25
UTG+1: $60.30
CO: $52.85
Hero: $60.25
SB: $67.60
BB: $60.90

Pre-flop: (6 players) Hero is Button with 3/images/graemlins/heart.gif 5/images/graemlins/heart.gif
UTG folds, UTG+1 raises to $2, CO folds, Hero calls, 2 folds.

Flop: 8/images/graemlins/heart.gif J/images/graemlins/club.gif T/images/graemlins/club.gif ($4.75, 2 players)
UTG+1 bets $3.5, Hero calls.

Turn: 9/images/graemlins/diamond.gif ($11.75, 2 players)
UTG+1 bets $8, Hero raises to $22, UTG+1 calls.

River: Q/images/graemlins/club.gif ($55.75, 2 players)
UTG+1 checks, Hero is all-in $32.75, UTG+1 folds.
Uncalled bets: $32.75 returned to Hero.

Results:
Final pot: $55.75

EMc

10-22-2006, 02:50 PM

I think an important piece of advice given is not to get carried away with this stuff. These are items that one should gradually add to their game and use them as needed. Most of the time, basic ABC play will work, but sometimes, you just gotta float.

carnivalhobo

10-22-2006, 02:52 PM

[ QUOTE ]
I think an important piece of advice given is not to get carried away with this stuff. These are items that one should gradually add to their game and use them as needed. Most of the time, basic ABC play will work, but sometimes, you just gotta float.

[/ QUOTE ]

IMO if you never float anoyone at 50nl or lower you arent giving up much.

Pokey

10-22-2006, 03:00 PM

[ QUOTE ]

IMO if you never float an unknown at 50nl or lower you arent giving up much.

[/ QUOTE ]

Fixed your post.

The key to floating is in picking your targets. If you never float without any extra information, I agree with you -- you don't give up much value. However, if you never float against ANYBODY you're giving up good value, even at the micro limits. The key with the micro limits is that most players fall into archetypal categories, where they are trying to play a particular style but doing so reasonably badly. The LAGs are bad LAGs: they play too hard, bet too large, read hands badly, and go way too far when it's obvious they're beaten. The TAGs are bad TAGs: they play too predictably, their ranges are well-defined preflop, they c-bet improperly, and they give up hands too easily. In other words, the typical micro-stakes LAG is a maniac, and the typical micro-stakes TAG is weak-tight. Against a weak-tight opponent, floating is pure gold. In fact, it should be an integral part of your arsenal.

EMc

10-22-2006, 03:03 PM

also too,

Most posters here are gonna move up at some point. So why not learn how to float when its relativly cheaper to do, and have it a viable tool when you are at 50/100/200nl.

matrix

10-22-2006, 03:23 PM

I think the important thing with floating is to recognise that your turn bet (or river bet) is designed to fold slightly better hands and by definition it is a bluff

So 1) do not float an unknown 2) do not bet more moneies than you need to to get the job done 3) don't overdo it.

1) you can't bluff a calling station - almost everyone knows that but lots of people still try it - and if you are bluffing an unknown then you might well be bluffing a calling station without realising this fact (and those guys will call you down with A high sometimes)

2) cr/all-in is fine IF you know that villain is weak tight and will fold to such a raise (but will only fold to an all-in) - but don't put your whole stack a risk if you don't have to, if they're going to fold most times they'll fold to a big bet (especially if it's the turn and you have a PSB or more left to fire on the river) so don't use more chips than you need to to get the job done or you'll look *really* stupid when you c/r all-in and discover villain was slowplaying his flopped set and wasn't weak this time at all.

3) Don't overdo it - you only get dealt so many great hands - if you float and raise big vs villains ooner or later they'll play back at you (which usually means spiking TP and calling your arse down to the felt) by all means float at targetted individuals that you know you can fold out - but it's soooo much better if the hand they pick to go after you *you've* got a real hand and aren't bluffing. (as well as taking that pot down you've also given yourself more license to steal later pots cos they thikn you are only playing hte good stuff - if you get caught with your fingers in the cookie jar abadon floating for a while cos they'll suspect you are bluffing again)

EMc

10-23-2006, 11:33 AM

a quick bump to those who missed it.

Acein8ter

10-23-2006, 12:02 PM

I don't use it too often... In position and usually when a 'scare' card hits - A or 3 flush board. (Most uNL players will still call even with a str8 board as they are hard to see sometimes)

It's good agaisnt a player that cbets w/AK, AQ, AJ, KQ, QJ and didn't hit. They can't fire the second barrel on a missed turn. (NIT) This is a good time to bet A2C's w/coordinated board.

BukNaked36

10-23-2006, 12:08 PM

EMcWilliams - green for a reason, good idea, good thread

I'm usually floating with two overs to the flop. You'll often get paid as Mr A9 who hit his 9 on the flop, can't believe you caught your Q on the turn.

I tend to check turns and bluff rivers - full pot - when I float.

ColdSteel

10-23-2006, 12:34 PM

[ QUOTE ]
What hands to float with?

Theoretically, I guess one could float with any two cards. However, usually it is best to float in my opinion with mid to low pocket pairs, and mid pairs on the board, or decent, but not strong draws. Some call it value betting, but to me thats floating.

[/ QUOTE ]

When I think of floating, I'm thinking of a hand that is being played for FE almost totally. The play doesn't work unless you know your opponent. For example, in this hand I knew my opponent had either a 6 or 2 spades.

Full Tilt Poker
No Limit Holdem Ring game
Blinds: $0.50/$1
6 players
Converter (http://www.neildewhurst.com/hand-converter)

Stack sizes:
UTG: $25.70
UTG+1: $164.50
CO: $99.70
Button: $71.10
SB: $48.70
Hero: $106.40

Pre-flop: (6 players) Hero is BB with 4/images/graemlins/heart.gif 7/images/graemlins/heart.gif
3 folds, Button calls, SB calls, Hero checks.

Flop: 5/images/graemlins/heart.gif 9/images/graemlins/spade.gif 2/images/graemlins/spade.gif ($3, 3 players)
SB checks, Hero checks, Button checks.

Turn: 6/images/graemlins/club.gif ($3, 3 players)
SB checks, Hero bets $3, Button raises to $6, SB folds, Hero calls.

River: 5/images/graemlins/diamond.gif ($15, 2 players)
Hero checks, Button bets $8, Hero raises to $39...

CaptVimes

10-23-2006, 12:36 PM

After reading the post and examples I have a newb question. Am I correct in thinking that this should only be done when you are heads up? I didn't see it mentioned in the post, but the examples seemed to imply this.

Thanks,

Pokey

10-23-2006, 12:53 PM

All plays that derive their EV almost exclusively from folding equity work best heads-up. With a float this is even more true, since having a three- or more-way pot implies that someone raised and someone else called or overcalled; at that point, your folding equity is going to be crap, and the play is almost surely -EV.

ColdSteel

10-23-2006, 12:56 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Am I correct in thinking that this should only be done when you are heads up?

[/ QUOTE ]

Pretty much, because of what happens to FE as more people contest for the pot. Think about CBing for instance. A good rule of thumb to CBing is ~100% of the time when HU, and about ~0% of the time with 3 opponents. The reason is FE. Even if you have 80% against each individual opponent, against 3 opponents you have .8^3=50% FE. Often you have less than 80% FE against a particular opponent which makes your position prohibitevely bad.

Edit: How did I manage a more mathematical post than Pokey? /images/graemlins/smile.gif

Minnie Man

10-23-2006, 01:29 PM

Great post and replies to all.

I think a weekly topis is gold!! Thanks EMcWilliams!

EMc

10-23-2006, 02:33 PM

Also too, here is a poll for next weeks topic:

Yaboosh

10-23-2006, 02:35 PM

How about "Playing Combo Draws and the Importance of Fold Equity". Easily I think the most misunderstood concept in the forums right now.

Though I do like the leading into the PFR topic.

carnivalhobo

10-23-2006, 02:37 PM

[ QUOTE ]
EMcWilliams - green for a reason, good idea, good thread

I'm usually floating with two overs to the flop. You'll often get paid as Mr A9 who hit his 9 on the flop, can't believe you caught your Q on the turn.

I tend to check turns and bluff rivers - full pot - when I float.

[/ QUOTE ]

get ready to have a lot of bluffs picked off, checking the turn makes river bets much less believable. Also, be weary of reverse implied odds when floating, just because you hit one of your overcards isnt a reason to stack off. I think floating is pretty tough to do well, and never do it OOP.

ajmargarine

10-23-2006, 02:39 PM

[ QUOTE ]
How about "Playing Combo Draws and the Importance of Fold Equity". Easily I think the most misunderstood concept in the forums right now.

[/ QUOTE ]

Bet sizing is easily the biggest mistake in uNL right now.

EMc

10-23-2006, 02:43 PM

poll...

theres a poll

I asked for suggestions of topics in the OP to get sent via PM, not posted in the thread. I took the best suggestions, and they are the poll.

ama0330

10-23-2006, 05:43 PM

3 betting light is the ultimate secret weapon of uNL. Shhhhhh....

NL Newbie

10-24-2006, 08:53 AM

[ QUOTE ]
Here are some more unusual types of floats, all from various 2+2 tables.

Hand #1: pre-flop float.

Villain (BB) is The Grunch.

Full Tilt Poker
No Limit Holdem Ring game
Blinds: $0.05/$0.10
9 players
Converter (http://www.neildewhurst.com/hand-converter)

Stack sizes:
UTG: $10.30
UTG+1: $4.15
MP1: $1.75
Pokey: $14.55
MP3: $35.15
CO: $53.50
Button: $35.20
SB: $25.85
BB: $10

Pre-flop: (9 players) Pokey is MP2 with K/images/graemlins/diamond.gif J/images/graemlins/club.gif
UTG raises to $0.2, 2 folds, Pokey calls, 2 folds, Button calls, SB folds, BB raises to $1.05, UTG calls, Pokey calls, Button calls.

My hand isn't strong enough to survive the preflop reraise on merits alone; this call is a float with position.

Flop: Q/images/graemlins/spade.gif Q/images/graemlins/diamond.gif 2/images/graemlins/diamond.gif ($4.25, 4 players)
BB checks, UTG checks, Pokey bets $2, 3 folds.
Uncalled bets: $2 returned to Pokey.

Grunch gives up on the hand, and I pounce.

[/ QUOTE ]

I consider this just a bluff to pick up a pot, you haven't "floated" any where. You simply bet when checked to.

[ QUOTE ]

Hand #3: An OOP float.

(Beware -- these are harder to pull off, folks.)

Villain (BB) is Leviathan101.

Full Tilt Poker
No Limit Holdem Ring game
Blinds: $0.05/$0.10
6 players
Converter (http://www.neildewhurst.com/hand-converter)

Stack sizes:
UTG: $10.25
UTG+1: $18.70
CO: $18.35
Button: $9.80
Pokey: $13.75
BB: $52.10

Pre-flop: (6 players) Pokey is SB with 6/images/graemlins/club.gif 5/images/graemlins/diamond.gif
4 folds, Pokey calls, BB raises to $0.2, Pokey calls.

Crap hand, but I have lots of folding equity.

Flop: 8/images/graemlins/spade.gif 8/images/graemlins/club.gif A/images/graemlins/diamond.gif ($0.4, 2 players)
Pokey checks, BB bets $0.1, Pokey calls.

Either he has it or he doesn't, and this bet doesn't answer the question. Let's see the turn.

Turn: 2/images/graemlins/club.gif ($0.6, 2 players)
Pokey checks, BB checks.

No joy for BB; time to make a play at the pot.

River: 5/images/graemlins/club.gif ($0.6, 2 players)
Pokey bets $0.5, BB folds.
Uncalled bets: $0.5 returned to Pokey.

Taking advantage of the scare card.

[/ QUOTE ]

And i consider this more of a value bet than a float or a pot steal. Id be tempted to raise the flop though since he's weak there and giving him cards OOP sucks.

I vote for:
C/ring, blind battles or pot control easily win it.

"Adapting to Players/Table conditions" is crap, its basic and since this is the best post in micro forums for the past 3months i think we should go with post flop plays VS general conditions.

"Omg my tables tight what do i do?" That will be lame.

Freelancer

10-24-2006, 09:09 AM

Reraising light gets my vote by a far stretch. Its one of the most fun and interesting moves I know and I just started experimenting with it. I admit that it isn't particulary usefull in uNL, but it gets better the more you move up.

ama0330

10-24-2006, 05:35 PM

Textbook float.

Party Poker No-Limit Hold'em, $ Hero (6 handed) Hand History Converter Tool (http://poker-tools.flopturnriver.com/Hand-Converter.php) from FlopTurnRiver.com (http://www.flopturnriver.com) (Format: 2+2 Forums)

Hero ($50.75)
UTG ($47.41)
MP ($51.13)
CO ($62.95)
Button ($0)
SB ($105.49)

Preflop: Hero is BB with Q/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, 7/images/graemlins/spade.gif. SB posts a blind of $0.25.
3 folds, SB (poster) raises to $1.75, Hero calls $1.50.

Flop: ($4) 3/images/graemlins/spade.gif, 2/images/graemlins/heart.gif, K/images/graemlins/heart.gif (3 players)
SB bets $3, Hero calls $3.

Turn: ($10) A/images/graemlins/heart.gif (3 players)
SB checks, Hero bets $7, SB folds.

Final Pot: $17

Results in white below:
Hero doesn't show.
Button doesn't show.
Outcome: Hero wins $13.50. Button wins $3.50.

KLJ

10-24-2006, 06:36 PM

uNL Concept of the week: EMcWilliams giving away the keys to the kingdom :-D

tomonbass

10-30-2006, 05:27 PM

Are these floaties full of fibre???

Ive been experimenting a little with floating and would aprechiate input Ty....

Full Tilt Poker
No Limit Holdem Ring game
Blinds: $0.10/$0.25
5 players
Converter (http://www.neildewhurst.com/hand-converter)

Stack sizes:
UTG: $32.35
Tomonbass: $27.40
Button: $10.65
SB: $24.60
BB: $35.80

Pre-flop: (5 players) Tomonbass is CO with 6/images/graemlins/spade.gif 9/images/graemlins/spade.gif
UTG raises to $0.75, Tomonbass calls, 3 folds.

Flop: A/images/graemlins/club.gif Q/images/graemlins/club.gif 9/images/graemlins/heart.gif ($1.85, 2 players)
UTG bets $1, Tomonbass calls.

Turn: 5/images/graemlins/diamond.gif ($3.85, 2 players)
UTG checks, Tomonbass bets $2.75, UTG folds.
Uncalled bets: $2.75 returned to Tomonbass.

Results:
Final pot: $3.85

Full Tilt Poker
No Limit Holdem Ring game
Blinds: $0.10/$0.25
5 players
Converter (http://www.neildewhurst.com/hand-converter)

Stack sizes:
UTG: $31.90
Tomonbass: $86.15
Button: $27
SB: $25.10
BB: $29.20

Pre-flop: (5 players) Tomonbass is CO with 2/images/graemlins/diamond.gif K/images/graemlins/diamond.gif
UTG raises to $1, Tomonbass calls, 2 folds, BB calls.

Flop: 9/images/graemlins/diamond.gif 5/images/graemlins/heart.gif 2/images/graemlins/spade.gif ($3.1, 3 players)
BB checks, UTG bets $2, Tomonbass calls, BB folds.

Turn: T/images/graemlins/spade.gif ($7.1, 2 players)
UTG checks, Tomonbass bets $4.25, UTG folds.
Uncalled bets: $4.25 returned to Tomonbass.

Results:
Final pot: $7.1

Warteen

12-11-2006, 12:07 PM

I think the best way to avoid getting floated is to stop c-betting with junk. Playing straightforward is mostly the best way to win at uNL, so why do you keep betting your AK on the board of 248? It's not like you can call a raise, even on the flop.

Esmerelda

12-11-2006, 01:46 PM

Yeah, as a compulsive c-better I have started to really pay attention to who calls because I find I can make a nice profit off floaters with a 2nd barrel.

I like to float when I spot a fellow addict (to c-bets) who doesn't catch on and follow up.

Most players at the micro tables can't let go of pairs once they have bet the flop, you will find yourself spewing if you try this too often without selecting villain carefully. It is good advertising for stacking people on the turn with your flopped sets and such.

Here is an example where I fire again at a suspected floater. He is laggy and c-bets a lot himself. I notice him calling my last few c-bets.

You could call this a value bet but I am looking to fold out anything but tp, so I think it is more of a semi bluff.

Poker Stars
No Limit Holdem Ring game
Blinds: $0.02/$0.05
9 players
Converter (http://www.neildewhurst.com/hand-converter)

Stack sizes:
UTG: $11.11
UTG+1: $8.57
MP1: $10.91
MP2: $3.35
MP3: $11.52
CO: $9.93
Button: $5.21
SB: $5.95
Esmerelda: $10.04

Pre-flop: (9 players) Esmerelda is BB with K/images/graemlins/club.gif A/images/graemlins/club.gif
4 folds, MP3 raises to $0.1, 3 folds, Esmerelda raises to $0.35, MP3 calls.

Flop: J/images/graemlins/club.gif 4/images/graemlins/heart.gif 2/images/graemlins/heart.gif ($0.72, 2 players)
Esmerelda bets $0.6, MP3 calls.

Turn: T/images/graemlins/spade.gif ($1.92, 2 players)
Esmerelda bets $1.5, MP3 folds.
Uncalled bets: $1.5 returned to Esmerelda.

Results:
Final pot: $1.92