Apparent success and growth of christianity (and islam)

[MidGe]

The apparent success and growth of christianity (and islam)

The growth rates of christianity (and islam) is often quoted by christians (and islamiss...) as a proof of the rightness/truthfulness of their religion.
The reason that both faith are displaying growth rate is that both work on the same basis of what is usually known as a pyramid scam. Both religions require evangelism from their adherents. Whereas a pyramid scheme in the financial reality soon runs out of steam, the fact, that in both religions, the benefits are to be delivered afer death(??) makes for no way of disclaiming them, and this, added to the gullabilty, or need to feel part of a crowd, that seems most people experience, makes it a sure bet that it will keep on succeeding. But it is a pyramid scam of the worst order, however well designed. It promises rewards and punishment (whichever works, greed or fear). It promises those after life with no verification possible, and, worst of all, it requires adherent to evangelise, making it a de facto, ultimate, logically, totalitarian institution. The only hope is fragmentisation, ie Islam vs xtianity, bahais vs islam, etc. and for that to continue. The alternative is to live in a totalitarian and very boring, as well as cruel, society.


Islam is currently experiencing bigger growth rate than christianity and is set to outplace the xtianity as the leading religion of this world in the second quarter of this century. Be that as it may it is not the important issue and neither is that christianity achieved its growth over the centuries thru colonisation and forceful evangelisation. The more interesting factor is that given xtianity pre-eminence in terms of economic, technological and politcal strength, it hasn't managed to convince more that a third of the people of its rightness/truthfulness.

[madnak]

Plus they aren't the only successful religions (if success indicates truth, than wouldn't Hindu and Buddhism go without saying?). And they had habits of killing anyone who disagreed with them for a long, long time. But I'm sure that didn't help them hold control...

[Phil153]

Christianity is so successful because it piggybacked along with the most successful cultures on earth as they conquered the planet.

Islam is so successful because it appeals well to the disaffected colored mind.

[FortunaMaximus]

[ QUOTE ]
Christianity is so successful because it piggybacked along with the most successful cultures on earth as they conquered the planet.

Islam is so successful because it appeals well to the disaffected mind.

[/ QUOTE ]

FYP, but only because color is now irrelevant to Islam, they get the disaffected from every walk of life now.

It depends on the mindset and personality. You're not going to get Southern Baptists suddenly converting because of the color issue.

[luckyme]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Christianity is so successful because it piggybacked along with the most successful cultures on earth as they conquered the planet.

Islam is so successful because it appeals well to the disaffected mind.

[/ QUOTE ]

FYP, but only because color is now irrelevant to Islam, they get the disaffected from every walk of life now.

It depends on the mindset and personality. You're not going to get Southern Baptists suddenly converting because of the color issue.

[/ QUOTE ]

interesting. I read the 'colored' as referring to the mind (set) not the persons skin.
hmmmm. I'll be interested in how it was intended.

luckyme

[FortunaMaximus]

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[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Christianity is so successful because it piggybacked along with the most successful cultures on earth as they conquered the planet.

Islam is so successful because it appeals well to the disaffected mind.

[/ QUOTE ]

FYP, but only because color is now irrelevant to Islam, they get the disaffected from every walk of life now.

It depends on the mindset and personality. You're not going to get Southern Baptists suddenly converting because of the color issue.

[/ QUOTE ]

interesting. I read the 'colored' as referring to the mind (set) not the persons skin.
hmmmm. I'll be interested in how it was intended.

luckyme

[/ QUOTE ]

Indeed. And I read it in historical context, with Cassius Clay and Lew Alcindor being notable '60's examples.

[Phil153]

It was referring to race and culture. How many white or north asian muslims do you see?

Islam has particular appeal to the savage and barbaric mind. It offers certainty to the oppressed, the inadequate, the angry and the stupid in a way Christianity does not. In many ways it is a seductive and beautiful religion. And its main hero is not a jew or a white man.

These things have had a lot to do with its widespread adoption among non Western cultures.

[luckyme]

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It was referring to race and culture. How many white or north asian muslims do you see?

[/ QUOTE ]

I think the secret is more imbedded in 'culture' ( including social circumstance) and the 'race' is an accident of sorts... as your reference to 'north asian' seems to indicate. Do adjoining islands really make that much of a racial difference...they often provide a big cultural difference.

thanks for the clarification, luckyme

[vhawk01]

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[ QUOTE ]
It was referring to race and culture. How many white or north asian muslims do you see?

[/ QUOTE ]

I think the secret is more imbedded in 'culture' ( including social circumstance) and the 'race' is an accident of sorts... as your reference to 'north asian' seems to indicate. Do adjoining islands really make that much of a racial difference...they often provide a big cultural difference.

thanks for the clarification, luckyme

[/ QUOTE ]

You better be careful, lucky. If you start responding to the actual points that Phil makes instead of reacting to the words he chooses (in order to incite emotion and outrage) then he is gonna take his ball and go home.

[Bill Haywood]

[ QUOTE ]
Islam has particular appeal to the savage and barbaric mind. It offers certainty to the oppressed, the inadequate, the angry and the stupid in a way Christianity does not.
These things have had a lot to do with its widespread adoption among non Western cultures.

[/ QUOTE ]

That's a howler. The greatest period of Islam's expansion was a thousand years before the rise of European imperialism, so it did not rise as a religion of resentment. It is known as the religion of traders because it spread to seaport to seaport among merchants. After all, the Arabs were way, way, ahead of Europeans in accomplishments and learning until just the last 300 years. It spread among advanced societies, not primitive and barbaric. It was associated with modernization and spread of ocean trade. That's why you have so many Muslims in Southeast Asia. It's another case of monotheism (like Judism and Christianity) replacing older pagan religions of multiple gods.

If you thing Islam is a religion of brown people, you do not know much. Look at eastern Europe. Malcom X famously began modifying his black nationalism after finally visiting Mecca and meeting blond and blue eyed Muslims.

Care to specify what EXACTLY it is about Islam that appeals to the primitive? I doubt you know enough about Islam to come up with anything plausible.

[theweatherman]

[ QUOTE ]
It was referring to race and culture. How many white or north asian muslims do you see?

Islam has particular appeal to the savage and barbaric mind. It offers certainty to the oppressed, the inadequate, the angry and the stupid in a way Christianity does not. In many ways it is a seductive and beautiful religion. And its main hero is not a jew or a white man.

These things have had a lot to do with its widespread adoption among non Western cultures.

[/ QUOTE ]

I'd say that the spread of dominant religions has 100% to do with what religious group conquered an area and imposed thier religion. Your idiotic ideas of the "appeals" of Islam have no basis in reality. I suggest you read up on the subject before you continue to make such foolish statements, they make you look like an ignorant bigot.

[FortunaMaximus]

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[ QUOTE ]
It was referring to race and culture. How many white or north asian muslims do you see?

Islam has particular appeal to the savage and barbaric mind. It offers certainty to the oppressed, the inadequate, the angry and the stupid in a way Christianity does not. In many ways it is a seductive and beautiful religion. And its main hero is not a jew or a white man.

These things have had a lot to do with its widespread adoption among non Western cultures.

[/ QUOTE ]

I'd say that the spread of dominant religions has 100% to do with what religious group conquered an area and imposed thier religion. Your idiotic ideas of the "appeals" of Islam have no basis in reality. I suggest you read up on the subject before you continue to make such foolish statements, they make you look like an ignorant bigot.

[/ QUOTE ]

Well, he's right and he's not.

One of Islam's attractions for adult converts is probably willingness by some of its followers to take up the aggressive and defiant battle against the entrenched bastions of Christianity.

And to define that as the whole picture of Islam is incorrect, obviously. That's the flaw. But you have to realize, also, Christianity is attacking Islam also, just on different levels. Christianity has historically been very aggressive in its approaches to converts. It continues to do so in the Middle East, although there are now economic bases for non-Christian factors to do so, under the umbrella of Christianity.

And those come largely from Christian states. And that is overlooked by different views of the Middle East.

Jerusalem is one of the most hotly contested pieces of real estate on Earth, and has always been. Because there are three major religions that claim large portions of it to themselves. And rightly so.

The key to the dilemma of introducing a plausible peace process to not the Middle East, but to the schism between the two religions is Jerusalem. Bring peace to Jerusalem, and the probability of Pax Terra increases by quite a bit.


Disgression:

The North Korean threat can be traced to China rattling a sword to bring a subtle point across to the West. They don't want anything but the Middle Kingdom, probably, but will exercise the power that have to keep America in check.

China has historically never taken the offensive in a war against the United States, and will not do so. However, people interested in that particular hotspot would do well to read Sun Tzu and the Chinese involvements in that region in the past half-century to realize the nature of the situation there from a Chinese view.

Aside: Sorry, duke, this might have crossed over into Politics a bit, but I thought there was a need to bring a larger frame of reference to this debate.

[Phil153]

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I'd say that the spread of dominant religions has 100% to do with what religious group conquered an area and imposed thier religion.

[/ QUOTE ]
100%? Many areas of the world were never conquered by particular religions or were conquered by multiple different religious groups. Christianity didn't have much success converting Persia nor did the Dutch have much success converting Indonesia.

[ QUOTE ]
Your idiotic ideas of the "appeals" of Islam have no basis in reality.

[/ QUOTE ]
Which ones? Have you read what Islamic people themselves say about the religion? How they feel about it? What it means to them? It's a very different mindset to Christianity.

Young men are drawn to the righteous and violent certainty of Islam, the structure it provides, and the feeling of brotherhood from following the teachings of a great warlord and teacher, Muhammed. The religion gains a lot of its stranglehold from that. It appeals well to the minds of the downtrodden, just like Christian fundamentalism appeals well to gun crazy nutcases in the low IQ states of America.

Back to the point that has you all enraged: I think it's pretty obvious to any world traveller that there are differences in the Arab and South East Asian mind, where most of Islam is centred. You can see it through their history, their attitudes, their relations with each other, and even in their religion. Their religion is as much an expression of the Arab race as is they are an expression of their religion, both the good and the bad. I wasn't lying when I said Islam is in many ways a beautiful religion.

In fact, I'd go as far to say that many religions around the world are largely the product of the genetic differences between ethnic groups, both in intelligence and temperament. The dumbest people on earth, the descendants of the indigenous people of Sub Saharan Africa and Australia, have religions that show a terrible lack of sophistication, intelligence and understanding of reality. They're like child's stories. The middle of the road, Whites, Indians(the country), Arabs, and such, have religions that show ample evidence of intelligence, but still contain many unsophisticated and childish notions. The most intelligent ethnic groups on earth, North and East Asians, have highly sophisticated, highly intelligent religions that show a deep understanding of the word and of themselves. Contrast Buddhism with the Australian dreamtime and Zulu beliefs, for example.

But I'm getting off topic. I'd hate to hijack the thread of a man who claims race does not exist, and that ethnic groupings are a useless notion.

[ QUOTE ]
I suggest you read up on the subject before you continue to make such foolish statements, they make you look like an ignorant bigot.

[/ QUOTE ]
I've read a lot about Islam, I find both the religion and its history fascinating.

[Phil153]

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so it did not rise as a religion of resentment.

[/ QUOTE ]
Where did I say that? I never claimed that Islam is a religion of resentment.

I am aware of everything you wrote. But I ask you this: why have peaceful interpretations of Islam not spread with same fire as the more fundamentalist ones, during Islam's growth periods. And why have other religions not slowly supplanted it, if Islam did not have powerful appeal to its adherents? These societies have had plenty of time to convert, or change their ideology.

[ QUOTE ]
Care to specify what EXACTLY it is about Islam that appeals to the primitive? I doubt you know enough about Islam to come up with anything plausible.

[/ QUOTE ]

- Structure: Following the life of Muhammed, following the exact pronouncements of the Koran

- A hero to worship: Muhammed, who is a great prophet, a great warlord, a great teacher and yet an everyday man. He is one of them, of their flesh; they can spend their life striving to live like him.

- Certainty: Very clear outcomes for different paths in life, very strong statements about what is acceptable and what is not.

- Brotherhood: Partly stemming from the above, partly resulting from a "them and us" philosophy reinforced through the language of the Koran and the stories of Muhammed's life. Included in this is the feeling of male empowerment given by the Koran, reinforced by Muhammed's holy actions.

Let me know is you want to get more specific.

[MidGe]

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Which ones? Have you read what Islamic people themselves say about the religion? How they feel about it? What it means to them? It's a very different mindset to Christianity.

[/ QUOTE ]

I see little differences. Both are pyramid scams, both are betting on an unverifiable outcomes, both are claiming insight in the divine as a reason.

[revots33]

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I see little differences. Both are pyramid scams, both are betting on an unverifiable outcomes, both are claiming insight in the divine as a reason.

[/ QUOTE ]

I basically agree with your pyramid scheme theory, but I don't think it explains the whole story. After all, there have been many cults where the members were urged to recruit new members. And many of these cults promised rewards in the afterlife. But obviously not all grew like Christianity and Islam.

I think there must have been something inherently appealing about the message of certain cults, that made it easier to recruit new members. Or perhaps it was the charisma of the early leaders, or even just some luck - coming into existence in the right place and time.

Once the cult reaches a critical mass of followers, it is no longer considered a cult, and it then becomes even easier to recruit new members.

And don't forget the emphasis both these religions place on having as many children as possible. This is the easiest way imaginable to get new members - no recruiting required.

[txag007]

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Whereas a pyramid scheme in the financial reality soon runs out of steam, the fact, that in both religions, the benefits are to be delivered afer death(??) makes for no way of disclaiming them

[/ QUOTE ]
The benefits of christianity are immediate - the fruits of the spirit: love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, gentleness, goodness, and self control. In short, I love God more, and I love people more - even you MidGe!

[ QUOTE ]
and this, added to the gullabilty, or need to feel part of a crowd, that seems most people experience, makes it a sure bet that it will keep on succeeding. But it is a pyramid scam of the worst order, however well designed.

[/ QUOTE ]
The first century christians were severely persecuted as part of the Roman culture. Are you saying these people were martyred as a need to feel part of the crowd?

Or was it all a lie, in which case thousands of members of the Church lied about their fellow believers deaths? If this is the case, how do you explain the continued exponential growth of the early church?

[Prodigy54321]

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The benefits of christianity are immediate - the fruits of the spirit: love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, gentleness, goodness, and self control. In short, I love God more, and I love people more - even you MidGe!

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't see any evidence that christians have more of these things than non christians...

well, "fruits of the spirit" I can't argue with..although there is no proof of that either since the "spirit" is unobservable.

[ QUOTE ]
The first century christians were severely persecuted as part of the Roman culture. Are you saying these people were martyred as a need to feel part of the crowd?

Or was it all a lie, in which case thousands of members of the Church lied about their fellow believers deaths? If this is the case, how do you explain the continued exponential growth of the early church?

[/ QUOTE ]

why do you keep trying to make nonchristians out to be crazy conspiracy theorists??...I don't think that anyone here would say that everyone purposefully lied and manipulated (although I'm sure some did) or would deny that members of most religions actually believe in their religion..but that doesn't make it true..and the fact that they actually believe does not constitute good evidence since actual belief is apparent in many mutually exclusive religions.

[FortunaMaximus]

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I am aware of everything you wrote. But I ask you this: why have peaceful interpretations of Islam not spread with same fire as the more fundamentalist ones, during Islam's growth periods.

[/ QUOTE ]

Because Islam had the misfortune to arise and take its initial holdings just when Christianity was trying to convert the territories where Islam rose, perhaps?

Byzantium, Constantinpole, the early Crusades. And the very fact those battles worked out in Islam's favor lend credence to the fact that this is, in fact, the only way to combat Christian states.

I don't know that they're wrong either. And it makes me wonder who the truly guilty party is here in the whole conflict. I'll offer up that it is neither.

[Darryl_P]

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Both are pyramid scams...

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm trying to wrap my head around how you can compare a religion to a pyramid scam....really trying, believe me...

In essence a pyramid scheme works as follows:

Each level pays the level above and collects from the level below. It's an apparent deal for everyone because there are fewer people on higher rows than lower ones, so the number of people to collect from is greater than the number you have to pay. That is, until there are no more people and you reach the bottom row. The people on the bottom row get screwed and the whole thing falls apart with the people on the top running away with the booty.

If anything looks like a pyramid scam, it's the current (mostly secular, read: atheist) economy in which the current generation borrows ever-increasing amounts from the next.

To have a pyramid scam you need a scarce resource like money, because you wouldn't need new people if the resource were abundant.

So basically I'm asking, what is the scarce resource in a religious pyramid scheme? After all, the stuff religion "sells" is mostly spiritual which is anything but scarce.

[txag007]

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why do you keep trying to make nonchristians out to be crazy conspiracy theorists??...

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I didn't say you were crazy. I said you were wrong.

[Prodigy54321]

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why do you keep trying to make nonchristians out to be crazy conspiracy theorists??...

[/ QUOTE ]
I didn't say you were crazy. I said you were wrong.

[/ QUOTE ]

it seemed to be implied that you don't consider this "conspiracy" to be a realistic possibility...but you have no problem believing that similar "conspiracies" occurred with many other religions? Why?

and again I put "conspiracy" in quotes because I don't want it to imply the same type of conspiracy that you seem to think would have to occur for a religion to be propogated.

[madnak]

Yes, it's not like religions take money from their members or anything, is it?

It's not like the central authorities of the Catholic Church have somehow happened to acquire obscene amounts of wealth, eh?

But of course power is at least as important - influence and prestige, all very scarce. Any scheme by which I convince 5 people to worship me, each of whom convinces 5 more people to worship me, each of whom convinces 5 more people... qualifies as a pyramid scheme in my book. Particularly if I expect to be able to tell all these people exactly what to do, even to the point of having them torture my enemies (any who breathe a word against me) to death.

Really, assuming that there's no value behind these Churches the fact that they're pyramid schemes should be evident - you may believe that they're "the real deal," but that doesn't change the fact they're typically structured like pyramid schemes. From the standpoint of an objective observer, such a conclusion goes without saying. Especially given that every pyramid scheme starts its pitch with "this stuff really works!"

[txag007]

[ QUOTE ]
it seemed to be implied that you don't consider this "conspiracy" to be a realistic possibility...but you have no problem believing that similar "conspiracies" occurred with many other religions? Why?


[/ QUOTE ]
choose a religion and i'll show you the difference.

[Bill Haywood]

[ QUOTE ]
so it did not rise as a religion of resentment.[ QUOTE ]

Where did I say that? I never claimed that Islam is a religion of resentment.

[/ QUOTE ]

[/ QUOTE ]

That's what I thought you meant by saying it appeals to the primitive and barbaric non-Europeans.

[ QUOTE ]
why have peaceful interpretations of Islam not spread with same fire as the more fundamentalist ones

[/ QUOTE ]
They have. In South East Asia it was spread by traders. See _Merchants and Faith_ by Risso.

[ QUOTE ]
Care to specify what EXACTLY it is about Islam that appeals to the primitive? I doubt you know enough about Islam to come up with anything plausible. [ QUOTE ]


- Structure: Following the life of Muhammed, following the exact pronouncements of the Koran

- A hero to worship: Muhammed, who is a great prophet, a great warlord, a great teacher and yet an everyday man. He is one of them, of their flesh; they can spend their life striving to live like him.

- Certainty: Very clear outcomes for different paths in life, very strong statements about what is acceptable and what is not.

- Brotherhood: Partly stemming from the above, partly resulting from a "them and us" philosophy reinforced through the language of the Koran and the stories of Muhammed's life. Included in this is the feeling of male empowerment given by the Koran, reinforced by Muhammed's holy actions.

[/ QUOTE ]

[/ QUOTE ]

All of those things can be found in flavors of other religions, including Christianity. Study the certainty of Calvinism, or the ritualization of Methodism. Certainly Islam has particular appeals--such as to the traders of Southeast Asia. But you have yet to identify anything uniquely appealing to barbaric primitives.

Just like Christianity has analogs to Muslim fundamentalism, there are Muslim analogs to Christian liberalism. There are plenty of alcohol guzzling Muslims wearing tight jeans in discos. Iraq in particular used to be more liberal and secular -- women did not have to wear veils.

Christianity often appeals to the poor and is spreading in Africa. You still do not show that Islam does not spread for reasons of contingency. That is, there's something uniquely appealing to dark barbarians, as opposed to it spreading like other religions by being the right idea at the right place and time. Islam, Hinduism, Christianity, Buddhism, all of these are "world religions" that play similar roles in society and modernization, and spread similarly. Partly by sword, partly by offering attractive ideas.

World religions spread because they are infinitely malleable and can therefore be conformed to local needs. Since they are malleable, one cannot be tagged as inherently warlike or backward. Given the right circumstances, one is as vicious as the other, or as forgiving and inclusive. Down with essentialism.

[Prodigy54321]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
it seemed to be implied that you don't consider this "conspiracy" to be a realistic possibility...but you have no problem believing that similar "conspiracies" occurred with many other religions? Why?


[/ QUOTE ]
choose a religion and i'll show you the difference.

[/ QUOTE ]

Islam

If you would like to give a pretty comprehensive analysis of the differences (I'm assuming we are talking about the early religions and the likelihoods that they could be to where they are today without having much truth to them), feel free to take as much time as you want and start a new thread..I'm sure it is a very interesting topic...and I don't know nearly as much as I would like to.

[txag007]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
it seemed to be implied that you don't consider this "conspiracy" to be a realistic possibility...but you have no problem believing that similar "conspiracies" occurred with many other religions? Why?


[/ QUOTE ]
choose a religion and i'll show you the difference.

[/ QUOTE ]

Islam



[/ QUOTE ]
Islam it is. (And I'm not going to use a new thread because this will be relatively short).

Islam was founded by one man who claimed to have received a vision from God. As a result of this religion and the subsequent wars he led, this man gained both wealth and power. When he died, his closest followers bickered with each other over inheritance of his fortune. Where is the conspiracy? There was none necessary.

Christianity was founded by Jesus and his followers. When Jesus died, he overcame death by rising from the grave three days later. Following the resurrection, he was seen alive by over 500 people at once. There was a dramatic change in the behavior of the apostles following the resurrection, as they proclaimed the gospel bravely in spite of the fact that their lives were better beforehand. The apostles died horrible deaths and many new christians suffered and were persecuted by others in the Roman culture. And yet, the Church grew by the thousands during the lifetime of the apostles. If the change in the apostles did not occur and if they did not suffer the gruesome deaths that Church history records, thousands would have to have been involved in this propogating this lie.

See the difference?