Set of 7s faces all-in on turn

[redCashion]

The turn raise could have been a bit bigger. He could have a made straight, but I still have outs. Since he was in the SB I can also look at A7s, A4s, A3s as possibilities though A7 and A4 probably would have reraised on the flop. Thoughts?

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, $0.50 BB (8 handed) internettexasholdem.com (http://www.internettexasholdem.com)

UTG+1 ($29.50)
MP1 ($51.50)
MP2 ($82.10)
CO ($38.15)
Button ($13.20)
SB ($119.75)
Hero ($49.35)
UTG ($39.90)

Preflop: Hero is BB with 7/images/graemlins/spade.gif, 7/images/graemlins/diamond.gif.
<font color="#CC3333">UTG raises to $1.5</font>, <font color="#666666">5 folds</font>, SB calls $1.25, Hero calls $1.

Flop: ($4.50) A/images/graemlins/spade.gif, 7/images/graemlins/heart.gif, 4/images/graemlins/club.gif <font color="#0000FF">(3 players)</font>
SB checks, Hero checks, <font color="#CC3333">UTG bets $2</font>, SB calls $2, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises to $6</font>, UTG folds, SB calls $4.

Turn: ($18.50) 3/images/graemlins/spade.gif <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
SB checks, <font color="#CC3333">Hero bets $14.5</font>, <font color="#CC3333">SB raises to $100</font>, Hero?

[pokerchap]

defintiley call. if you are beat, tough.

[Jay Riall]

Lead flop next time. Try and get allin. Ax will follow. Instacall the turn please, he has Aces up soo much here its not even funny. 56 is the only hand I am really scared of here.

[xwillience]

i would have raised more on the flop. to 8-10.

but im not laying down this set. he could have two pair, a set of 4s, or the wheel. but i think its still profitable in that your ahead A LOT.

[redCashion]

Agreed on all counts guys, I'm running a little bad right now so just need confirmation that I'm not donking these chips away.

Btw, Jay I don't see any reason to lead the flop when the preflop raiser is going to cbet with air 99% of the time. I'd rather check-raise him then lead out and get one or two calls.

[xwillience]

Red- i still lead the flop. hopefully hell RR you and you can get it all in.

[Jay Riall]

I see youir point about trapping money in the pot. I just think a c-r on this board looks too scary and will get people folding hands they would call a flop and turn lead with.

[redCashion]

X, aren't you trying to extract a little for those times when he has nothing? It seems like if it's going to get all in, it's going to get all in, and he would be just as likely to reraise my reraise as my bet.

[redCashion]

Jay, you're saying that I'm basically announcing that I have a set with a dry board like this?

[Jay Riall]

[ QUOTE ]
Jay, you're saying that I'm basically announcing that I have a set with a dry board like this?

[/ QUOTE ]

To me, yes. To your average 50NL donkey probably no, but they will still be cautious of you.

[xwillience]

slow playing is for suckers.

play it hard and fast.

besides, a c/r shows so much more strength than bet/call.

[Jay Riall]

Yep bet/call then c-r AI on the turn is the sexiest way to play this hand by far.

[redCashion]

I like it when I start a discussion thinking I need info on one set of circumstances (whether to call the turn), but really get some good things to think about on another (whether to lead out with my set). I guess my MO is to consistantly check to the preflop raiser with a made hand, and then check-raise him. I also do it with air occasionally so I don't think I'm too predictable (though no one probably notices one way or the other anyway). But I think I may be blowing guys off some marginal hands.

Thanks for the thoughts.

[Jay Riall]

Constantly check-raising players (especially good players) with made hands is a good way to tourn your cards face-up. I have soo many notes on players saying 'c-r flop with set.' I just know they don't play TPTK or a draw like this also.

[redCashion]

Well, now I'm confused. So if I lead out on the flop, and he calls. But I check the turn, what's to stop him from checking behind with a marginal hand? This is exactly opposite of the way I normally play, which is c/r flop, lead out on turn.

[xwillience]

sometimes i c/r into a PFR when i think hes weak, rarely do i do it with air tho. Once they have something vested into the pot, they are more likely to call. in MicroSNL, im more inclined to lead into them if i think they are weak.

[Shaddux]

You are check-raising way too much if this is the case.

[redCashion]

I didn't mean that was my MO with a set only, I meant that was MO for any hand I find worth playing. That could be top pair or a draw, or a monster. I will do it more often with made hands than draws, but in some ways it depends on their agressiveness stats. If they are really high they are more likely to be holding a marginal hand, and I'd like to try to take them off of it. They'll also let me know when I'm beat by reraising me back.

I raise alot preflop, and when someone leads into me and I have an unmade hand I'm almost grateful because I get off cheaply with a fold.

[Jay Riall]

If you bet and he raises, then you call and c-r the turn. If he just calls your lead I would lead again on the turn to try and build a decent pot, especially since he checks behind a lot more in this instance.
If you pulled this move against me I would be mucking AQ and possibly AK on the turn, the line is really that transparent.

[ymu]

Don't checkraise the flop - As will call/raise if you lead it. And if you must, checkraise it properly - ie for full pot. Unless they're idiots the only hands that stay with you are those which can outdraw you and take your stack.

This looks like 56 charging a set/flush draw/2 pair too much to draw, but it's 44 or Aces up often enough to make it a call.

[redCashion]

Ok, but I'm saying what if he calls on the flop? Now I've only got one bet in on the flop vs the two I had with c/ring. And I would be forced to lead out on the turn because I don't want him checking behind, so I lose my ability to c/r there.

[xwillience]

that leaves you really vulnerable in my opinion.

if I were to lead into you on the flop everytime you PFR, and you folded when you missed and raised when you were ahead, I would be the one coming out ahead and getting off cheap, not you.

[redCashion]

I'm not saying every time x, but when you're in those marginal situations where you might not cbet (say 2 or 3 callers and a textured board) it makes my life easier to have someone lead into me because I know I've got someone around who is willing to fight for the pot. It also doesn't happen often enough for some pattern to emerge where guys are just leading into me every time.

[Slava_sky]

Folds.

[orange]

Flop c/r is fine, though I would make it bigger. Leading is also fine. I would instacall the turn.

[ymu]

[ QUOTE ]
Ok, but I'm saying what if he calls on the flop? Now I've only got one bet in on the flop vs the two I had with c/ring. And I would be forced to lead out on the turn because I don't want him checking behind, so I lose my ability to c/r there.

[/ QUOTE ]
This isn't limit - the number of bets doesn't matter, the size of them does. The PFR bet out for less than half pot - you could have led out for full pot without revealing your hand strength.

The c/r did end up putting more in there than a pot-sized lead, but as it turned out - if SB did have 56 - he got a really good price from the PFR to draw to the straight and then another really good price from your tiny raise.

This isn't the drawiest board ever, but SB's flat call of the PFR's lead suggested he had something and it was most likely a draw or a slow-played monster - either way, you need to make a proper sized raise, to about $10. He's taking a much bigger risk calling this as he has 8 outs against 10 redraw outs for you (so he has approx 26% equity over 2 cards at this point), and the size of your raise cuts his implied odds to hit.