How to play vs maniacs/ x-looosey gooseys

[munkey]

If there's one type of player I struggle to play against it's the 60-80% VPIP with a PFR raise 30%+ and o0 aggression.

I think I'm misplaying vs them and interested in peoples thoughts/approach.

I've read NLHTAP Adjusting to loose games chapter but how does one adapt to the aggressive x-looseys?

2 hands(not the best choice I know) as example situations
Villan is 70/27/1.8 over ~200 hands
folds SB never, street aggr increases-river 3, raises alot PFR >4bb and reraises a fair bit and can play ok at times postflop/bluff. Has been AI preflop with Ak and JJ.
Has a tendency to AI the turn on weakness /escalate the betting quickly if you raise him back -especially on dangerous boards.

Full Tilt Poker
No Limit Holdem Ring game
Blinds: $0.25/$0.50
5 players
Converter (http://www.neildewhurst.com/hand-converter)

Stack sizes:
UTG: $67
CO: $51.05
Button: $35.75
SB: $153.20
Hero: $46.70

Pre-flop: (5 players) Hero is BB with T/images/graemlins/club.gif T/images/graemlins/heart.gif
3 folds, <font color="#cc0000">SB raises to $2</font>, Hero calls.

Flop: T/images/graemlins/spade.gif J/images/graemlins/spade.gif 8/images/graemlins/spade.gif ($4, 2 players)
<font color="#cc0000">SB bets $4</font>, <font color="#cc0000">Hero ?</font>




Full Tilt Poker
No Limit Holdem Ring game
Blinds: $0.25/$0.50
6 players
Converter (http://www.neildewhurst.com/hand-converter)

Stack sizes:
Hero: $141.25
UTG+1: $46
CO: $23.35
Button: $22.95
SB: $48.10
BB: $350.30

Pre-flop: (6 players) Hero is UTG with Q/images/graemlins/club.gif A/images/graemlins/heart.gif
<font color="#cc0000">Hero raises to $2</font>, 3 folds, SB calls, BB calls.

Flop: 7/images/graemlins/diamond.gif Q/images/graemlins/heart.gif 3/images/graemlins/spade.gif ($6, 3 players)
SB checks, BB checks, Hero checks.

Turn: 4/images/graemlins/diamond.gif ($6, 3 players)
SB checks, <font color="#cc0000">BB bets $5.5</font>, Hero calls, SB folds.

River: J/images/graemlins/spade.gif ($17, 2 players)
<font color="#cc0000">BB bets $7</font>, Hero calls.

Results:
Final pot: $31

[nitramee]

i am repoping these hands pf against superlag.

Hand1:raise flop get ai if possible
hand2:Bet flop

[ticks]

Recipe for dealing with the maniac:
Get a seat to his right (yes right).
Limp reraise a lot.
Play hands that have a good chance of making top pair with a decent kicker:
QT, JT+
Take TP average kicker to the felt (yes felt).

High variance but very profitable.
In fact this is one of the most profitable situations you can be in.
Buckle up for a bumpy ride though.

Edit: and reraise that TT hand preflop, like, always.
No matter who you are up against.
(Except maybe Mr. 5/1/1)

[kazana]

You need to make notes on what villain typically raises. I find those that generally raise any two suited very easy to play against.

1st hand: I'm willing to call down here, but for meta game raising is probably a stronger option. Call a push since villains like that will often do it with any spade any OESD - but also two pair etc. If you are behind, you still have a decent amount of outs to catch him.

2nd hand: Bet the flop, at the very least raise the turn. River call is mandatory given the way you played this hand.
Don't let him get to showdown cheaply when you've got a hand that's worth a raise.

X-looseys in general increase variance a lot. Hate it or love it, but try to figure out whether this one is a good lag or a bad one asap.
If you don't let them push you around too often, they'll often retreat to a more "stable" style of play against you once you've pushed back hard with a good hand and they (almost) lost a big chunk of their stack. If they don't slow down at all, wait for something more substantial and let them hang themselves.
You need to play your weak hands identical to your strong hands to make their lives miserable.

[King Spew]

Hand One: Rope-a-Dope. If he's got the flush already, you still have outs. I'ld instapush if he pots it on turn. However in reality, he's probably got a FD/Str8 combo and is value betting you /images/graemlins/grin.gif I would definately miniraise his turn. Geez, flop a set against a guy that is uber-aggro... does it get any better?

Hand Two: I play it just like you. Does that mean we both suck? lol

[Pokey]

[ QUOTE ]
Hand One: Rope-a-Dope.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yes.

[ QUOTE ]
If he's got the flush already, you still have outs.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yes, but irrelevant -- assuming he has the flush is seeing monsters under the bed. Don't even worry about the possibility, because you can't afford to play scared against this guy.

[ QUOTE ]
I'd instapush if he pots it on turn.

[/ QUOTE ]

No. You've got position on him and he's betting strongly; let him bluff once more on the river. If you hit your full house, then raise his river bet all-in; otherwise, smooth-call his river bet, even if a fourth spade hits the board. There's no reason to make a play at the pot on the turn when he's already on a path to self-destruction. The very best way to deal with a maniac is to let him bet himself to death. When he bets into your monster, you smooth-call until the river and THEN wake up. Oh, and OOP against a true maniac you should usually go for a check-raise on the river. If maniac is smart enough to check behind when he misses the river, then OOP you should be getting your check-raise in on the turn.

The longer ou wait to pull the trigger with your monsters, the more money villain gives you. Don't jump the gun!

[munkey]

My play and thinking of the hands at the time


Hand1:
3bet AI I think - it went AI on the flop.
Villan could have a flush -I have outs or 1 spade draw
- villan likes to raise AI on dangerous boards - I previously shoved the turn with AA on 789 board after a flop minraise he had 95o.


hand2:
I checked the flop for pot control(we're 300bbs deep and villan is proably capable of pushing AI with marginal hands), sensed he had something/was bluffing so thought I'd call down- I didn't want a big pot(x3buyins deep) so that's why I checked the flop.
(I would normally bet the flop)

nitramee
so I should reraise my better range vs him preflop
- TT what other hands -SCs /AJ/ATs ?

ticks
I don't understand why we sit to his right - I know he'll build big pots for us this way and we have position when he's in the blinds -but the 4/6 time we're be OOP.

kazana
ye I should have noted what he PFR, you are aware i'm deep in hand 2? - but I agree I missed some value.

[ticks]

[ QUOTE ]
The very best way to deal with a maniac is to let him bet himself to death.

[/ QUOTE ]

Meh.
An alternative strategy is to get as much money in preflop as possible,
with hands that are a favourite against his range.

I also disagree with the rope-a-dope line in hand 1,
another spade might slow villain down,
and if he is drawing to the flush/has a piece of the board he is prob. not folding to a raise.

We might be thinking about different kinds of maniacs, though.
Mine is loose and aggressive both pre- and postflop.
He not only raises and bets too much, but also calls too much.

[Pokey]

[ QUOTE ]

We might be thinking about different kinds of maniacs, though.
Mine is loose and aggressive both pre- and postflop.
He not only raises and bets too much, but also calls too much.

[/ QUOTE ]

munkey said infinite aggression; definitionally, those guys don't call. The opponent munkey described in OP bets every hand and every scare card, but folds to any resistance unless he's got an uberhand or thinks you're FOS, at which point he three-bets all-in. That means you should be semibluffing him often and slowplaying him often, and folding without a draw or a hand. You don't have to tangle with him often -- he'll do the work for you when the time is right.

Also, against the "quick to bet, quick to fold" maniac, the best seat is on villain's left.

You're talking more about strategy against a bad LAG, and while I agree with much of what you say, I don't think that's the right label for the villain munkey describes.

[ticks]

[ QUOTE ]
ticks
I don't understand why we sit to his right - I know he'll build big pots for us this way and we have position when he's in the blinds -but the 4/6 time we're be OOP.

[/ QUOTE ]

Consider the following two scenarios:
1. You limp in with 99, maniac predictably raises, folded to you who make a big reraise with a hand that is a favourite against his range.

2. Limp in 99, maniac raises, but this time another player reraises before the action gets back to you. Your hand might still be playable for set value, but it certainly doesnt look as hot as in the first scenario.

By sitting to maniac's right you get to:
a) Limp-reraise, i.e. get a lot of money in with hands that are likely to be best.
b) See how the rest of table reacts to his raise, which lets you better gauge the relative strength of your hand and what your action should be.

My strategy against maniacs is based on getting a lot of $$$ in preflop with hands that are a favourite against his range.
A lot of the time you will be all-in on the flop with overcards and stuff like that, but it will be worth it.

[evilempire]

always always reraise them PF if you are going to play. I love limp reraising if you can count on them raising

[ticks]

[ QUOTE ]
Also, against the "quick to bet, quick to fold" maniac, the best seat is on villain's left.

You're talking more about strategy against a bad LAG, and while I agree with much of what you say, I don't think that's the right label for the villain munkey describes.

[/ QUOTE ]

You may be right.
However, villain did call a turn all-in with 95 on a 987 board.
This might have been a correct call given pot odds,
it might have been bad (I suspect the latter).

His stats may be what they are because the table reacts to his aggression by turning into passive callstations.

I think your strategy is best if he is like you describe though.

[ticks]

[ QUOTE ]

Has a tendency to AI the turn on weakness /escalate the betting quickly if you raise him back -especially on dangerous boards.

[/ QUOTE ]

...a very good reason to play hand 1 fast.

[BukNaked36]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Hand One: Rope-a-Dope.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yes.

[ QUOTE ]
If he's got the flush already, you still have outs.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yes, but irrelevant -- assuming he has the flush is seeing monsters under the bed. Don't even worry about the possibility, because you can't afford to play scared against this guy.



[/ QUOTE ]
AA over KK preflop
Set over set

flopped flush over set? Reasonable to get stacked on this?

I've gotten drilled on this a couple of times lately.

[Pokey]

[ QUOTE ]

flopped flush over set? Reasonable to get stacked on this?


[/ QUOTE ]

This one depends on circumstances, but you've always got a one-in-three chance of boating up by the river, so it's rarely a big mistake to go broke with a set against a two-card flush. Given that villain is a maniac, it makes going broke perfectly reasonable. Now, if a very passive player wakes up and starts betting, proceed with extreme caution, and proceed with your hand only if you have proper odds to call for your boat.

[matrix]

[ QUOTE ]
The very best way to deal with a maniac is to let him bet himself to death.

[/ QUOTE ]

it takes the grand total of ONE hand to stack a LAG.

vs a maniac I play less hands - but the hands I do play are top drawer hands that I min-raise him with pf.

this has the advantage of bloating the pot preflop making it very likely that the bet sizes on the river will be stack sized. So when I hit a monster hand like MPGK+ post flop I sit back and check call him till he hands over all his money. If I have a genuine monster (2pair+ on a non drawy board) I push the river all-in.

Rinse and repeat till he runs out of cash. Don't raise him off his garbage hands until it's too loate and he is pot committed, but raise him preflop every hand you play.

Never ever play at a table OOP to such a maniac - you always need a real monster to get all-in with and he'll never ever let you have odds to draw, if a mnaiac sits on my left I move pretty dam sharpish.

[munkey]

Thanks for the help and discussion all.
Sorry I was away for the weekend and unfortunately couldn't go on the skinterent so couldn't join in the discussion. /images/graemlins/frown.gif

[ QUOTE ]

Quote:

flopped flush over set? Reasonable to get stacked on this?


This one depends on circumstances, but you've always got a one-in-three chance of boating up by the river, so it's rarely a big mistake to go broke with a set against a two-card flush. Given that villain is a maniac, it makes going broke perfectly reasonable. Now, if a very passive player wakes up and starts betting, proceed with extreme caution, and proceed with your hand only if you have proper odds to call for your boat.



[/ QUOTE ]

Tks for clearing this up Pokey - I was never very sure what the best approach was in this scenario (set monotone flop) -vs this dude I was AI the flop if possible.

[ QUOTE ]

My strategy against maniacs is based on getting a lot of $$$ in preflop with hands that are a favourite against his range.
A lot of the time you will be all-in on the flop with overcards and stuff like that, but it will be worth it.


[/ QUOTE ]

I see what you mean now ticks - I guess it's relatively easy to play a preflop game -les hard postflop decisions -I'm not sure if I'm ready for that kind of variance route here - I think you and others are right I should have done more reraising preflop.

[ QUOTE ]

Never ever play at a table OOP to such a maniac - you always need a real monster to get all-in with and he'll never ever let you have odds to draw, if a mnaiac sits on my left I move pretty dam sharpish.


[/ QUOTE ]

I tried to find a draw hand as an example too but I couldn't find one - (I think I ditched any non-nut draw).

I think Pokey has the right kind of villan in mind -the use of the pigeonholing 'MANIAC' term leads us to our own view of what we temr a maniac and hence the slight confusion/different replies.
(NLHTAP chapter on this I believe)

The PT stats don't tell everything -you'll have to see him play to realise your stack was @ risk in every pot you played on any street.

Interestingly some of the other players adjusted badly or were just plain bad and went AI with marginal 3rdpair/underpair hands.

[jk3a]

Hand 1, reraise PF. as played raise, hope he pushes. Try to get the money in as long as another spade or straight card doesn't come off.

Hand 2, You have got to bet the flop. Your hand very strong.

[Pokey]

[ QUOTE ]
Interestingly some of the other players adjusted badly or were just plain bad and went AI with marginal 3rdpair/underpair hands.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is the greatest strength of the maniac style (the same strength that the LAG style provides, only to an extreme level). When you are always playing every hand to the very bone, people typically respond in one of two ways: (1) fold everything that's not the absolute nuts, or (2) play back hard with ANYTHING (sometimes as little as ace-high). Both of these strategies are wrong, and expensive. The person who only plays the nuts goes broke one ante at a time, and the person who plays back with everything gets very quickly stacked when the maniac hits a hand (which he will do about one hand in three).

The best strategy against a maniac is to sit at his left, play premium hands passively, and semi-bluff aggressively. Playing this pure strategy works fine if you're only going to tangle with this opponent for one session, but if you play against the same maniac MANY times then you should be mixing up your play on occasion to fight predictability. (An EASY way to mix up your strategy: if your left hole card is a club, play the hand the opposite way -- aggressive with made hands, passive with draws. Then, every time you show your cards, pick a new suit to be the "tricky suit." That way your play will be 75% normal, 25% tricky, and that's a fair mix even against an observant opponent.)