Do we want to fold everyone out preflop?

[Jouster777]

Obviously with AA and KK we want callers but how about other hands? It depends on whether we average more than 1.5BB/hand (and position and the quality of our opposition). Just looking at averages, Do you average more than 1.5BB/hand with the following?

Please add other hands with which you beat this average. Comments on how this should affect our preflop betting amounts requested.

[ColdSteel]

No way, man. I always want to play postflop. How else am I going to make any money?

[Jouster777]

I like to get to postflop with all these hands too (neutral on AQo when OOP) as I think I am ahead of a caller's range. But we shouldn't mind all folds preflop...does that combination mean we should bet more preflop with premium but not super-premium hands?

Edit: and how does position affect that proposition?

[ColdSteel]

If you're asking if you should bet different ammounts with different hands, you'll find people fall in to two camps.

Personally, I feel like both camps are wrong on thier main arguments. I always raise the same ammount (pot sized raise PF) because I'm too lazy to figure some other strategy out, and I'd probably do itbadly anyway. Besides, it's preflop. If I'm making a mistake by not varying my bet size, its a small mistake. I'm much more concerned about postflop.

[munkey]

I think AJ said this once before 4xBB+1limper or there abouts/PSR gets you 1-2.5 villans (normal table conditions)
which is the no. of vilans you ideally want with these type of hands unless multiway -when we would like a set/nut str8/nut flush.

Plz correct me AJ if I misread you.

[ColdSteel]

4x+1 is the 2p2 standard, that's correct. Personally, I hit the pot button because I'm pretty active preflop.

[evilempire]

We have more oppertunity to exploit our opponents post flop. I start raising more if people start folding when I have good hands

[Jouster777]

Pot, 4x+1 are both fine and you never really go wrong with them. I'm just trying to figure out if we can squeeze out a bit more EV. I think varying the bet size doesn't really matter from an information giveaway standpoint in uNL (until you have 200+ hands with someone you think is decent) but if that is a concern the bet sizing can be varied in an unexploitable way instead of doing it solely based on the hand.

Take TT preflop when OOP. Of the 5 that have answered no one averages >1.5BB regardless of position. We should be very happy to fold out the field in this case. What is the effect of a 6bb+1 PFR relative to a 4BB+1? I think we have the following effects:
1. Fold big broadways (AJ, KQ, KJ, AT, KT, QJ) sometimes - good
2. Fold SC's sometimes (would have had decent implied odds) - good?
3. Fold some lower PPs and those that stay will be for set value(?) (probably bad)
4. Bloat the pot OOP (us. bad unless stacks are short)
5. Others?

I'm not sure of the balance postitives vs. negatives on all of this.

[Pokey]

I just want to point out that the poll is very badly worded. The title of the thread is "do we want everyone to fold preflop?" which makes people think your poll questions might be asking if we want everybody to fold with those hands; then, in the post's body, you ask "do you win more than 1.5 BB per hand with these?" so depending on which question people try to answer, you'll get different responses.

Also, you ask if people's winrate is more than 1.5 BB per hand, but when you look up your stats in PT it will be telling you PTBBs per hand, so the critical value for "I'd rather play postflop than fold everybody out" is actually 0.75 per hand, not 1.5. (Oh, and at $25NL the blinds are $0.10 and $0.25, so the critical value is actually 0.7 PTBB per hand for a $25NL player.)

Just to give you an idea:

I looked back over all my $25NL and $25PL stats (full ring and 6-max) and found the following:

17.5k hands.

The blinds are worth 0.7 PTBB/hand.
On average, I won more than 1.4 PTBB/hand (double the blinds) with the following hands:

AA, QQ, JJ, TT, 99, 77, 66, and 22
AKs, AQs, A9s
AQo

On average, I won less than 1.4 PTBB/hand but more than 0.7 PTBB/hand (the value of the blinds) with the following:

KK
A2s, KJs, K5s
AKo

I think whether you want your opponents to fold or not will depend on your postflop strength relative to theirs, your position relative to theirs, the depth of your stacks, the predictability of your opponent, how loose your opponent is, how passive your opponent is, whether they play worse preflop or postflop, and what their typical mistakes are.

Oh, and also on your cards. (Note that your cards are often of secondary importance here, and it is not necessarily raw hand strength that is the deciding factor: I'd typically rather get called when I steal with T9o than when I steal with A4o.)

[Jouster777]

Thanks Pokey.

*)&*(^*(^ Pokertracker's ptBB vs. big blind difference...ruins the whole thread obviously.

I think the main question is important and the additional factors you mentioned were meant to be incorporated in my side note about position and opponent's skill. Just looking to the beginning of the assessment as to whether/how/when we should adjust preflop when our EV is better with a fold.

Other notes:
I'm surprised after 17K hands KK is in the lower group
I knew I was approximating for 25NL cuz its the only one

[Pokey]

[ QUOTE ]

I'm surprised after 17K hands KK is in the lower group


[/ QUOTE ]

Small sample. Ask someone with 50k hands or more and you'll usually see KK as their #2 winner. In my 18.5k hands at $100NL, KK is #2 with 6.45 PTBB/hand, just BARELY trailing AA. (I also have my effing DOOM HAND of pocket 5s, which are losing 3.47 PTBB/hand over the 88 times I've had 'em. I'm winning 0% of the time at showdown with them, including losing 5 hands where I had a set or better. Ow.)