Big Draw with 63s c/r'ed on turn.. not one for the TAGs

[tomonbass]

Thought I post a hand since I havent for a while...

Turn c/r concerns me.... can I get away from this hand with so many potential outs...

Full Tilt Poker
No Limit Holdem Ring game
Blinds: $0.25/$0.50
6 players
Converter (http://www.neildewhurst.com/hand-converter)

Stack sizes:
Tomonbass: $45.35
UTG+1: $34.35
CO: $59.75
Button: $47.15
SB: $57.45
BB: $49.25

Pre-flop: (6 players) Tomonbass is UTG with 3/images/graemlins/spade.gif 6/images/graemlins/spade.gif
Tomonbass calls, UTG+1 folds, CO calls, Button calls, SB calls, BB checks.

Flop: 8/images/graemlins/spade.gif 3/images/graemlins/heart.gif 9/images/graemlins/spade.gif ($2.5, 5 players)
SB checks, BB checks, <font color="#cc0000">Tomonbass bets $2</font>, CO calls, 2 folds, BB calls.

Turn: 7/images/graemlins/diamond.gif ($8.5, 3 players)
BB checks, <font color="#cc0000">Tomonbass bets $6</font>, CO calls, <font color="#cc0000">BB raises to $32.5</font>, Tomonbass ?

[AJGibson]

Definitely flop pf, why do you want a play a hand that ugly?

Good NL players play hands in such a way as to avoid difficult decisions. (http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/showflat.php?Number=6454057)

[tomonbass]

How do I have a difficult decision post flop with 63s?

I think your desicions post flop with hands like that are relativley simple if you whiff the flop its easy to get away with only 6 high ... no?

[Vern]

Fold pre-flop unless your opponents all limp and never fold all the way to the river.

Flop the 4/5 pot bet is fine with bottom pair, no kicker and a flush draw + bdsd.

Turn I check behind here, I figure against two opponents I am drawing and want to take the card, not bet with the unlikely event that two fold. If CO bets and I can close with odds to draw I will. If CO checks I get to draw free. if CO bets and BB c/r that much of an over bet I fold.

As played, I fold to the turn c/r. You have to call 26 into a 54 or 1:2 and have lost your implied odds to overcome the lack of immediate odds.

[Freelancer]

And if you 'hit a flop' with bottom 2p or a bad flush draw AND being out of position things get way more difficult.

[AJGibson]

[ QUOTE ]
How do I have a difficult decision post flop with 63s?

[/ QUOTE ]
Didn't you just get one in this hand

[ QUOTE ]
I think your desicions post flop with hands like that are relativley simple if you whiff the flop its easy to get away with only 6 high ... no?

[/ QUOTE ]
How many flops are you going to like the look of? Playing this sort of hand OOP is just asking for trouble IMO.

[Everlong]

Tom,

I somehow understand your motive for playing this hand as if it hits and hits hard it is very well concealed etc.

But you are putting yourself in a tough spot by limping it UTG:

1. People left behind you to act
2. You show no strenght so taking it away from you on later streets is easy.

If you want to play this I think you have to raise preflop ( although myself even though playing fairly LAG would open fold this UTG pf 99% of the time).

Raising pf allows you to:

1. Take it down pf
2. c-bet the flop and take it down.

As it is now you have to hit the flop to win. As played I think it is a clear fold on turn. He might be on a draw but if it is the fd it is definately a higher flush than yours.

[Freelancer]

You can raise this if you are in position. but please please fold this UTG. Your putting yourself in a world of hurt if you limp it.

[tomonbass]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
How do I have a difficult decision post flop with 63s?

[/ QUOTE ]
Didn't you just get one in this hand

[ QUOTE ]
I think your desicions post flop with hands like that are relativley simple if you whiff the flop its easy to get away with only 6 high ... no?

[/ QUOTE ]
How many flops are you going to like the look of? Playing this sort of hand OOP is just asking for trouble IMO.

[/ QUOTE ]

Imo I dont think the flop decison here is a diificult one... I have BP FD BDSD any 3 or possibly any 6 are outs and have been checked too as it stands I have 14 outs as it stands (9 spades, 2 treys, 3 sixes)if Im behind the bet here on the flop is obvious...

I am a very LAG like player I like to see alot of flops (around 40 - 50 %) especially at 6max and I am constantly chopping at lots of pots to pick up dead money etc.. as you would imagine with playing so many flops... I choose to limp with these types of hands to slow down on occasion and seem passive in some hands... as Im constantly raising in position with a wide range of hands if Im opening and constantly firing at pots when noone is intrested or when c-betting....

These hands just give me a chance to change gears once in a while....

And Im probably not going to like the look of many flops with this type of hand... but you dont need a hand to win a pot do you? /images/graemlins/smile.gif

[tomonbass]

[ QUOTE ]
Fold pre-flop unless your opponents all limp and never fold all the way to the river.

Flop the 4/5 pot bet is fine with bottom pair, no kicker and a flush draw + bdsd.

Turn I check behind here, I figure against two opponents I am drawing and want to take the card, not bet with the unlikely event that two fold. If CO bets and I can close with odds to draw I will. If CO checks I get to draw free. if CO bets and BB c/r that much of an over bet I fold.

As played, I fold to the turn c/r. You have to call 26 into a 54 or 1:2 and have lost your implied odds to overcome the lack of immediate odds.

[/ QUOTE ]

I like your turn line here.. makes sense /images/graemlins/smile.gif

[gimmetheloot]

Tomon, regardless how you play, limping this UTG is ugly.

Also, you should check turn, and be looking to c/r CO AI if he bets, and BB does anything other than c/r himself.

yeh, fold to raise. JT just got there.

[tomonbass]

I dont mind limping utg with hands like ssc Axs small pp's etc

The way I see it is that I want to see a flop with these hands as cheaply as possible and prevent myself from being raised out pf....

The plan is then to hit a flop hard and hopefully take someones stack....

I dont plan to fold to a reasonable raise here pf I will gladly call I just want a cheap flop...

I dont see what I acheive by raising this utg as most likely I will create a large pot oop with a weak hand... I could even be reraised resulting in a fold....I prefer to see what a flop brings...

In position I will be always raising this hand... but everythings easier in position /images/graemlins/smile.gif

[gimmetheloot]

Tomon, if i am OTB, you limp that, and I make a 5-6BB raise, you are going to call and hope to spike a flop huge?

Thats terrible. Just awful. You hit this flop damn near as hard as you could, and still got pushed off of your hand. Didnt even get it to showdown.

[tomonbass]

Is that a request to see the results?

What happened beyond the turn is irrelevent....

If we took this exact sernario and you raise pf on the button and I call ... Im looking to get all in on the flop here...

Id be betting straight into you and pushing to a reraise...

Im not afraid to gamble in good spots...

[ama0330]

This is really terrible poker. You say you are a LAG, but you actually don't understand how LAG play works at all.

LAG play gains a lot of its profitability from folding out better hands, by applying aggression to weaker players and representing a stronger hand than is actually held. Therefore, you would take a strong line with a weak hand in the hope of decieving your opponent.

Here, you have limped UTG, bet pot and been called, then bet the turn and been pushed over. You are going broke with a draw in an unraised pot and you are clearly beaten. If your opponent is even remotely observant he will know you are full of crap, or at least put you on a flush draw. He seems to not care at all what you have, which makes me think that he either has just hit his straight, has a set, or has you drawing dead to a five. Hence, I doubt you have as many outs as you think.

The other and probably most important thing you have done wrong here is neglected the CO. Here you have a pot in which you have nothing, drawing to nothing (your flush draw AND straight draw may both be dead) and you have a COLD CALLER behind your PSB on both the flop AND the turn, and you are still considering calling the push? Madness.

Good LAG play revolves around exploiting other players with weak hands, or catching very well disguised hands on unlikely flops to disguise your strength and stack your unsuspecting opponent. This requires:

-POSITION
-Observant and astute hand reading skills
-Patience / Discipline

I note that in your OP you don't even mention what your opponents range is. Are you even putting him on a hand?

1. Fold preflop
2. Flop bet okay
3. Check behind turn, fold to pressure, call something reasonable
4. Fold river UI

But its not LAG to play this kind of hand UTG, its just foolish.

[gimmetheloot]

[ QUOTE ]
Is that a request to see the results?

What happened beyond the turn is irrelevent....

If we took this exact sernario and you raise pf on the button and I call ... Im looking to get all in on the flop here...

Id be betting straight into you and pushing to a reraise...

Im not afraid to gamble in good spots...

[/ QUOTE ]

I could give a rat's ass about the results. if you DID make it to SD, well, bad play sir.

Dude, you were trying to b/3b the flop here, I think/hope. Did it happen? NO. You werent raised.

Most of the time you are going to completely miss the flop, or flop a very [censored] marginal hand that you cant play with anyway. You arent gambling in good spots. You are GIVING money away preflop, hoping beyond hope that you get it back postflop. Most of the time, when your hand hits hard enough to continue with, guess what!!! Your opponents hand wont!

This play is god awful. Just god awful. I'm sorry, this isnt like out of the box thinking/great play, its just bad.

You have yet to give reasons why it is +EV, besides saying you play 'lag' and that you try to get the money in when you hit miracle flops. GREAT SIR.

Im sure somebody will actually do the EV math, just give them something to work with and how you expect to make money with this play.

[munkey]

POSITION
POSITION
POSITION
POSITION
POSITION
POSITION

-others act after us so we get to read their hands before they do ours
-may have to limp call a raise as all left to act behind us --&gt;worse implied odds
-can control potsize (also to make pot big when we hit)
-get free card if we want it
- our hand although deceptive doesn't hit the board well enough on average

On the BTN or completing the SB I might play it, but UTG we
lose all the advantage of position above. Yes I am a TAG/NIT but all the good LAGGY players are always reraising me or raising the BTN not limping UTG hoping to hit the flop hard.

BTW on the flop you have a decent hand as a pair+fdraw -the only problem it's a pair of 3s and a 6 high flush draw(and bottom end str8 on turn) so it doesn't look so good on closer examination as although you have outs they're about as clean as my footie boots.


BTW nice to see you back tomonbass- I remember when you posted a beginners guide thread to 6max a long time ago.
(I believe it was u) /images/graemlins/tongue.gif

[Jouster777]

I agree that this should be folded preflop. I think flop is fine and turn should initially be a check.

You have 17 possible outs...any read as to whether BB does this with less than a set or straight? Is your image crazy so he would try to make a play here?

Pot is offering 2:1 (26.5 for 53) plus you have $10 behind if you call so there are some implied odds too. If you assume you fold river when you whiff and get the last $10 in 90% of the time on the river when you hit then:

EV 17 outs: $7
EV 14 outs (set): $0.37
EV 9 outs (straight): -$10.5

Where EV = (outs/45)(62)-(45-outs)/45*26.5-(#of outs &lt;17)/45*10

So you are ok against a set but you have to have a read that villain will do this significantly more with 2-pair or worse than with a straight in order to make the call.

This ignores some chops with made straights and the rare times 6's are outs too so its only approximation. Oh, and the denominator for unknown cards should be 46 but I'm too lazy to recalculate.

[Jouster777]

Preflop EV&lt;0 /images/graemlins/smile.gif

[ActionStan]

You almost never have 17 outs here. You have the low end of the straight, a low flush draw, drawing to bottom 2 pair...


You are drawing to things that make you go broke. This seems pretty easy to get away from.

You took your shot. Fired a second barrel. Fine. Everybody in the hand seems to have something better than you. Don't go broke.

[ActionStan]

I think it's overly optimistic to call 9 spades outs. Same with 3 sixes. There's every chance there's alaready 2 pair or a better flush draw out there and BB may be drawing to a FH.

[tomonbass]

Yeah it was me Munkey but my styles changed alot since then.. Its nice to be back and getting flamed again lol /images/graemlins/smile.gif

I do understand LAG play and how important position is etc..and representing stronger hands than I actually hold make weaker players fold.. yadi ya

I get that... thanks anyway....

My image is often represented as "crazy" as Jouster suggested.. but this is due to my many raises in position followed by c-bets etc...

I am betting alot of the time bluffing alot of pots I am constantly involved stealing lots of small pots etc... so my image would be very loose...

I dont mind slowing down with these types of hands OOP as explained... this is one hand ama dont be so quick to judge people...

Thanks for the calculations Jouster... so in theory the only hand I should be scared of is J 10...

In all honesty I could see a player with a set or even 2 pair making this move at this level especially against such a loose opponent as myself.

[tomonbass]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Is that a request to see the results?

What happened beyond the turn is irrelevent....

If we took this exact sernario and you raise pf on the button and I call ... Im looking to get all in on the flop here...

Id be betting straight into you and pushing to a reraise...

Im not afraid to gamble in good spots...

[/ QUOTE ]

Dude, you were trying to b/3b the flop here, I think/hope. Did it happen? NO. You werent raised.

[/ QUOTE ]

On the flop im trying to win the pot uncontested Im not looking to get my stack in here at all, Im taking a stab because if my attempt to steal the pot fails I have several outs to fall back on in that spot...

[NL Newbie]

i fold, your flush outs are probably the only outs you have. Sometimes you wont have them but will have a OESD, either way you'll prob lose more than you gain.


I dont bet the turn, they called your bit bet - They may be drawing or slow playing, if i bet they'll call or they'll raise. They'll rarely both fold.

If they are drawing then one draw(Straight) just hit, If they arent drawing to that then is my FD any good? Check it.

[gimmetheloot]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Is that a request to see the results?

What happened beyond the turn is irrelevent....

If we took this exact sernario and you raise pf on the button and I call ... Im looking to get all in on the flop here...

Id be betting straight into you and pushing to a reraise...

Im not afraid to gamble in good spots...

[/ QUOTE ]

Dude, you were trying to b/3b the flop here, I think/hope. Did it happen? NO. You werent raised.

[/ QUOTE ]

On the flop im trying to win the pot uncontested Im not looking to get my stack in here at all, Im taking a stab because if my attempt to steal the pot fails I have several outs to fall back on in that spot...

[/ QUOTE ]

Ban this person. This kind of idiocy just shouldnt be allowed here.
HOW CAN YOU NOT BE TRYING TO STICK YOUR STACK IN THE MIDDLE ON THIS FLOP????

[pokerchap]

easy fold PF. i usually c/r AI here. what is wrong with that?

[tomonbass]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Is that a request to see the results?

What happened beyond the turn is irrelevent....

If we took this exact sernario and you raise pf on the button and I call ... Im looking to get all in on the flop here...

Id be betting straight into you and pushing to a reraise...

Im not afraid to gamble in good spots...

[/ QUOTE ]

Dude, you were trying to b/3b the flop here, I think/hope. Did it happen? NO. You werent raised.

[/ QUOTE ]

On the flop im trying to win the pot uncontested Im not looking to get my stack in here at all, Im taking a stab because if my attempt to steal the pot fails I have several outs to fall back on in that spot...

[/ QUOTE ]

Ban this person. This kind of idiocy just shouldnt be allowed here.
HOW CAN YOU NOT BE TRYING TO STICK YOUR STACK IN THE MIDDLE ON THIS FLOP????

[/ QUOTE ]

Are you serious you want your stack in here in an unraised pot??? dont talk crap...

You take gambles etc when the gamble is worth taking Im not risking $50 here for $3 or so get real...

You dont risk going broke in an unraised pot... prehaps you should review your own idiocy... /images/graemlins/smile.gif

If you have nothing helpful to add dont add anything at all!

[Pokey]

[ QUOTE ]

You dont risk going broke in an unraised pot...


[/ QUOTE ]

http://www.wsum.org/punkrockforsissies/hobbes.jpg

P.S.: Calvin agrees:

http://www.interestingideas.com/ii/pix/calvin.gif

[tomonbass]

Are you saying Im wrong to think this pokey... if so can you prehaps explain to me instead of posting random stupid pictures ....

[Pokey]

[ QUOTE ]

Are you saying Im wrong to think this pokey...


[/ QUOTE ]

No; I'm saying you're wrong for justifying specific poker decisions using pithy generic aphorisms.

[ QUOTE ]

if so can you prehaps explain to me instead of posting random stupid pictures ....


[/ QUOTE ]

Good call -- nothing does a better job of convincing me to volunteer my time to help others quite as effectively as insulting me.

The "poker aphorisms" are those quick one-line sayings that bad players use instead of thinking. First and foremost among them is "don't go broke in an unraised pot." O rly? Which are the pots where we SHOULD go broke? Do you hear Daniel Negranu saying "Oh, perfect -- I really hope I can go broke in this pot"? Going broke in ANY pot is bad, and we never intend to do it. But getting all your money into the middle is NOT the same thing as going broke. If I can, I'm getting all my money in the middle with AA preflop every time -- that's not the same as saying I'm going broke with AA. If you start equating pushing with going broke you're going to start playing timid and scared poker, and that's never profit-maximizing and often it will be losing play.

More importantly, what does this saying accomplish? What behavioral changes does it create, and are those behavior changes good ones or bad ones? It seems to be saying that you should:

1. Always fold to a push without the nuts.
2. Never bet hard at the pot unless the hand was raised preflop.

We have a name for that: "weak-tight." Unraised pots are often called "orphan pots" for a reason: they belong to nobody and they're just looking for someone bold enough to buy them. Stealing these pots is a great source of income because other players are dumb enough to fold because they "don't want to go broke in an unraised pot." Of course, if you bet/fold every time you're in one of these pots, a bigger and braver shark will just resteal from you every time.

If you want to live your poker life by a pithy phrase, make it Amir Vahedi's famous one: "in order to live, you must be willing to die." You won't stack opponents very often if you're not willing to risk your stack in the process, and scared poker is bad poker.

[ColdSteel]

Even in a smackdown, you deliver it well.

[tomonbass]

TY Pokey nice explaination I agree with all your points...

Its hardly a smackdown is it steel ?

[EMc]

Pokey wins.

[ActionStan]

Regardless of who wins, this hand does not. It is...

... bottom pair no kicker
... the draw to the 3rd anti-nut flush
... the draw to the idiot end
... the draw to the bottom 2
... the draw to bottom trips no kicker

This hand is a chucker.

KRAMER: Wide open, I was wide open underneath! I had three inches on that
guy. You two were hogging the ball.

GEORGE: Me? It wasn't me I never even saw the ball. All you do is dribble.

JERRY: I have to dribble, if I give it to you, you just shoot. You're a
chucker.

GEORGE: Oh I'm a chucker.

JERRY: That's right, everytime you get the ball you shoot.

GEORGE: I can't believe you called me a chucker. No way I'm a chucker, I do
not chuck, never chucked, never have chucked, never will chuck, no chuck!

JERRY: You chuck.

GEROGE: Kramer am I a chucker?


KRAMER: You're a chucker.

GEORGE: All these years I've been chuckin' and you've never told me?

JERRY: Well it's not an easy thing to bring up.

[floppy]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

if so can you prehaps explain to me instead of posting random stupid pictures ....


[/ QUOTE ]

Good call -- nothing does a better job of convincing me to volunteer my time to help others quite as effectively as insulting me.

[/ QUOTE ]

Which, to your credit, you proceeded to do anyway.

Still, while I didn't think the pictures were stupid (I happen to like Calvin &amp; Hobbes), they weren't exactly constructive criticism either.

This kind of thing happens on any forum: Someone asks noob questions, or makes a noob statement that the regulars can see for swiss cheese thinking, and instead of posting for the fiftieth time why this way of thinking is wrong, they just put up some snark and wash their hands of it.

Thing is, this is micro stakes. Can't we be a bit more forgiving than this? What next, we spin off nano stakes?

Incidentally, I don't think you'll see it explicitly stated anywhere that "going broke in an unraised pot" is frequently misused, so your longer reply was necessary.

[hanster]

Raise PF if you want to play this hand. C/C the turn