Poker on resumes and in interviews

[knicknut]

Hello. I'm going through my round of junior summer internship applications in consulting and banking. I'm torn about how to include poker. I'd appreciate the perspective of those in these industries on how poker may be viewed by a recruiter and an interviewer.

On one hand, it is certainly proof that I am qualified for some of the more hectic jobs like sales and trading. Playing on 8 tables, making EV decisions subconsciously and keeping track of many games via statistic calculating software would certainly seem like a positive. Also, showing the dedication to learn the optimal strategy and game theory, as well as developing control to only play in +EV situations seems relevant.

On the other hand, there are many people that view poker as reckless gambling (even though the stock market is "investing"), and might figure the only skill involved to be bluffing. I may be viewed as a gambler (and not in a good way), and may lose more because of it.

So, does it belong on a resume? If not for all jobs, which?
Mentioned in an interview? How can it be eloquently included if I determine my interviewers can be open-minded about it?

Thanks for the advice from those experienced in the business world.

[Roy Munson]

As someone who has spent the last 22 years in banking and 25 years playing poker I suggest that you not bring up poker at all. Do not include it in the resume, do not discuss it in an interview.

An intern's role is to show up everyday, perform gruntwork and get a taste of the business environment.

When everyone was new to the work world they had few accomplishments to discuss in an interview. Some feel that hobbies and leisure interests are their only source of material. Resist the temptation to use these.

Most of my coworkers know that I gamble but I never initiate conversation about it.

[slickpoppa]

Don't put it on your resume, no matter what the job is. If they ask you about hobbies during the interview, then MAYBE mention it if the interviewer is a young male and seems laid back. Remember that getting a job is first and foremost about what you can do for the company as a worker. Nobody is going to care that you can 8 table on Party because they have no idea what that entails and it has almost nothing to do with most jobs. If anything, telling people that your primary hobby involves sitting in front of a computer for hours furiously clikcing on 8 tables will make you look anti-social at best and a degenerate gambler at worst.

Or in poker terms so that you will understand me: mentioning poker on your resume or an interview is a slight favorite, huge underdog situation. The vast majotrity of interviewers will either be completely ignorant about it or actually have negative connotations about it.. Some interviewers may think its cool, but it won't be something that helps you get the job.

[edfurlong]

As someone who can walk and chew gum at the same time, what the [censored]?

I am really good at beating off to tranny porn, but I leave that off my resume. Its super that you play poker, tell someone else.

[Vincent]

Don't include it.

[TruePoker CEO]

"Don't put it on your resume, no matter what the job is*."

* I would qualify that ONLY if the job application involves working for an online poker company.

Otherwise, leave it off.

Truepoker CEO

[TruePoker CEO]

Like he said .....

[knicknut]

Wow, didn't realize it would be so unanimous. I see your points. I have thought of it in the slight advantage or huge negative way, slickpoppa. I'm glad you mentioned it.

It is kind of disappointing that something that does show competence, quick analytical skill, and the ability to multitask carries too much negative stigma to be mentioned.

Now I just wish I hadn't sent out 2/3 of my resumes with it on there...

[augie_]

[ QUOTE ]
Now I just wish I hadn't sent out 2/3 of my resumes with it on there...

[/ QUOTE ]

Seeya next job fair buddy.

[knicknut]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Now I just wish I hadn't sent out 2/3 of my resumes with it on there...

[/ QUOTE ]

Seeya next job fair buddy.

[/ QUOTE ]

Well, I'm already doing pretty well on getting first rounders (although my grades may be helping me there).


So, I guess on that note, I shouldn't bring up how I feel sports betting is like derivatives markets? heh...

[knicknut]

I feel the need to clarify a bit.

I don't mean that this is going to be a main point on my resume.

I go to a top 5 school and have a 4.0. I'm taking relavent coursework and have some decent experience in event management and starting my own landscaping business (that I now subcontract). I have extensive extracurriculars (club sports teams, music, dance, fraternity positions). This is just something to set me apart from the 100 other high GPAs from my school that hit "submit resume" on Monstertrak, and to possibly spark an interesting conversation later.

I understand if the answer is still the same--it's just that rereading the post, I realized one could assume I was going to make it an important part of my resume as a piece of major experience.

[TStoneMBD]

put it on your resume if your boss will be a female, a young male or vietnamese. put dice on your resume if your boss is gonna be black.

good luck

[Jeffage]

Good policy is not to mention it in interviews or in the office really. People have too many questions, some look down on it, etc. Just my opinion.

Jeff

[Meeler09]

My boss told me that poker was degenerate and I told him to kiss my ass..

My pride has also caused me to become self employed.. /images/graemlins/mad.gif

[slickpoppa]

As long as it was just a footnote on your resume, it probably won't be a big deal. Most people probably won't even notice or will just think that it means you like to play a $10 buy-in game with your friends every Thrusday night. That is another reason why mentioning poker for job purposes is problematic: A lot of people will just think that you are casual player. The only way that you can somehow demonstrate that you are really good at poker is by mentioning how much money you have made playing it, which is tacky.

[Toro]

[ QUOTE ]
Now I just wish I hadn't sent out 2/3 of my resumes with it on there...

[/ QUOTE ]

Since I play poker and know that poker players aren't necessarily a bunch of worthless gambling addicts it wouldn't bother me to know that you were a poker player if you were interviewing for a job with me.

But what would bother me and set off a red flag in my mind would be that you were too naive to realize that putting poker on your resume would be a huge negative to a lot of people.

[4_2_it]

Don't do it. Surely, you have something else a little more mainstream to mention. For an internship, most employers are looking for someone who has good grades, a couple of solid references and an outgoing personality. Anything else is a distraction.

[LozColbert]

Never mention it. Also, you should not be making your EV calculations subconsciously, but I assume you know that.

[dlk9s]

[ QUOTE ]
I feel the need to clarify a bit.

I don't mean that this is going to be a main point on my resume.

I go to a top 5 school and have a 4.0. I'm taking relavent coursework and have some decent experience in event management and starting my own landscaping business (that I now subcontract). I have extensive extracurriculars (club sports teams, music, dance, fraternity positions). This is just something to set me apart from the 100 other high GPAs from my school that hit "submit resume" on Monstertrak, and to possibly spark an interesting conversation later.

I understand if the answer is still the same--it's just that rereading the post, I realized one could assume I was going to make it an important part of my resume as a piece of major experience.

[/ QUOTE ]

If you got all that other stuff going for you, there is absolutely no need to even consider putting poker on your resume. It's a summer internship. Nobody applying for them has [censored] for experience, anyway.

[knicknut]

[ QUOTE ]
Never mention it. Also, you should not be making your EV calculations subconsciously, but I assume you know that.

[/ QUOTE ]

Sorry, I just do them so quick that they just feel subconscious /images/graemlins/wink.gif

[knicknut]

[ QUOTE ]
The only way that you can somehow demonstrate that you are really good at poker is by mentioning how much money you have made playing it, which is tacky.

[/ QUOTE ]

Well, I was tacky.

I put it right under the value of my personally managed portfolio, so it doesn't look too out of place anyway.

[MemphisRounder]

DO NOT MENTION POKER on your resumes, interviews, ect. Again, DO NOT MENTION POKER. It will be frowned upon heavily. "COMPULSIVE GAMBLER" is all they will think.

[highlife]

Even though I have been playing poker semi-seriously for 5 years now, I would still be reluctant to hire someone with poker listed on their resume (or if they brought it up in an interview).

[MemphisRounder]

I would NEVER hire someone with poker on there resume. And yea, im in a position to hire someone, and do it all the time. Later

[TheWorstPlayer]

Wow!

Managed portfolio: $12
Poker winnings: 15PTBB @ 1/2

Yay!

[dustyn]

[ QUOTE ]
I would NEVER hire someone with poker on there resume. And yea, im in a position to hire someone, and do it all the time. Later

[/ QUOTE ]

Let me guess, you are hiring very low level people without significant skills, so you use stuff like this to determine who you hire?

I agree with others that poker is more likely to hurt than help your chances at getting a position. However, I also think that if you are applying for a job requiring any significant level of skills, it's unlikely to hurt your chances as well. If it's a position where the employer is receiving 400 resumes, and will use something really stupid like "putting poker as a skill" as a reason not to interview you...you aren't job hunting properly, in my opinion. Getting in front of people, attending career fairs, networking with people...are far more effective than throwing random resumes off to jobs posted on monster.com.

Basically, I'm in the camp that 95% of the time it will neither help nor hurt your chances at getting a job. However, it's more likely to hurt you than help you in the remaining 5% of cases, so it's probably not worth it to mention it. However, people who are equating putting poker as a "hobby" to career suicide are being completely ridiculous, in my view.

P.S. I make my living in recruiting.

[pokernicus]

You might want to ask 2+2 posters like like AaronBrown or KingYao what they think. They're both poker players with financial services backgrounds who might have specific insights into the particular industry you're interested in. A number of financial services firms are fairly big on poker (some even organize their own WSOP ME satellites).

That said, you'll still run into people who don't realize that poker requires skill, and they may regard you as a degenerate gambler!

Many people include a small section at the end of a resume listing various hobbies and interests, and I don't think it's unreasonable to include poker there. If the hiring manager is a poker player, s/he may notice and ask you about it, which might be to your added benefit. If s/he doesn't play poker, it'll probably be ignored... So, this might be a +EV approach. ;-)

[coolandtough]

i think it is important to consider what sort of position you are applying for. I have spoken with many hedge fund recruiters who said that competitive poker was a good thing to see in a candidate. for these and some other firms (e.g. trading programs, etc.) listing competitive poker as an interest is probably marginally beneficial.

For most jobs outside of financial services, however, it's pretty much a terrible idea.

[knicknut]

Thanks, I'll try to get in touch with them, pokernicus. My sentiments are definitely in line with yours, both with the potential advantages and risks. It is listed beneath my "skills" along with my "interests" in my "skills/interests" section. We'll see how it goes. For now I may take it out, especially for non-banks.

[dibbs]

Good god no.

[KDuff]

[ QUOTE ]
i think it is important to consider what sort of position you are applying for. I have spoken with many hedge fund recruiters who said that competitive poker was a good thing to see in a candidate. for these and some other firms (e.g. trading programs, etc.) listing competitive poker as an interest is probably marginally beneficial.

[/ QUOTE ]

Last year Deutsche Bank came to my school and sponsored a NL event for 30 juniors and the top finishers got Ipods. You never know what a 23 year old HR girl is going to think when she sees that you play poker. But with a 4.0 and credible business experience it sounds like you're setting yourself up nicely for the summer.

[dseiler116]

[ QUOTE ]
Wow, didn't realize it would be so unanimous. I see your points. I have thought of it in the slight advantage or huge negative way, slickpoppa. I'm glad you mentioned it.

It is kind of disappointing that something that does show competence, quick analytical skill, and the ability to multitask carries too much negative stigma to be mentioned.

Now I just wish I hadn't sent out 2/3 of my resumes with it on there...

[/ QUOTE ]

Unfortunately to the general public, or more importantly the mid to upper level management you'll be dealing with, Poker itself has that negative stigma of gambling attached to it. It's an unwarranted stereotype, but nonetheless a popular one. You and I know better, but never even put the thought into your future bosses/recruiters head that you might be a gambler.

(Unless you see poker trophies strewn about his/her office.)

[ImWeakTight@UCLA]

But what would bother me and set off a red flag in my mind would be that you were too naive to realize that putting poker on your resume would be a huge negative to a lot of people.

Keep reading this line, and u will have a good future

[gomberg]

Hey - I'm working at my 3rd trading / programming job in Chicago and have had poker on my resume since day 1. In 3/4 interviews in this industry, it has helped me, in one, it hurt me. I thought it was fine as a conversation starter and showed my quantitative / psychological reading abilities (I had to explain it in an interview) in terms of trading. I recruited out of college and interviewed about 40 people. The ones who had the balls to put poker there and explain it well left a good impression with me and usually got them a 2nd interview for the company I was working for.

Also, if the company was run by partners who couldn't understand this concept, I in no way wanted to be working for / with them. I know, a little dumb on my part, but it's really not that hard to find a good job here in this market. I've worked for two awsome companies now who really cater to their employees.... Hell, we even play poker here on a weekly, bi-weekly basis (not high stakes unfortunately /images/graemlins/smile.gif ).

Just my 2 cents. In any other industry, it's probably foolish to be on there. It also doesn't hurt to keep it off there, so do what you want - for me, I used it as a keyword that showed I wanted to be part of developing trades / trading strategy instead of purely programming infrastructure.

[thedustbustr]

<rant>
[ QUOTE ]
Never mention it. Also, you should not be making your EV calculations subconsciously, but I assume you know that.

[/ QUOTE ]

dude
calculating EV should be subconscious
do you still pull out your graphing calculator to figure out what 2+2 equals every time you see it on this forum?
that pissed me off. im done now.
</rant>

[highlife]

[ QUOTE ]
P.S. I make my living in recruiting.

[/ QUOTE ]

if you really wanted people to seriously consider your advice, you should have left this part out.

[dustyn]

If you are refusing to consider someone based on them putting "poker" in their resume, you should take a lesson on how to hire people...or perhaps listen to stupid recruiters who don't know anything.

[highlife]

my comment was more of a joke about the general trustworthiness of recruiters, but your response was pretty funny too.

[rbenuck4]

[ QUOTE ]
As someone who can walk and chew gum at the same time, what the [censored]?

I am really good at beating off to tranny porn, but I leave that off my resume. Its super that you play poker, tell someone else.

[/ QUOTE ]

LMAO. Well put.

[mbishop]

I haven't seen anybody mention the biggest reason NOT to do this, which is:

Online poker is generally portrayed by the media as an ILLEGAL activity (regardless of what WE think about it.) So does writing "I violate the law on a regular basis" on your resume help?

[dustyn]

There's nothing about putting poker as a hobby that implies anything illegal. For all they know it could mean home games with your buddies twice a week.

[pr0crast]

I disagree. Don't put it on resumes, but if you're in an interview and you have a read on the guy, you can start making analogies between poker and the business world. There are an infinite amount of poker-to-business analogies to be made, and each one can launch you off into a story about something else you've accomplished in life, etc etc. Got me a fantastic internship once where they only hired 5% of the applicant pool. But def don't put it on your resume, because it is something that needs to be explained in person, if at all, and it needs to be used as a conversational tool to talk about other things rather than being a focus in and of itself.

[Vincent]

Putting poker on your resume isn't a unique thing. There are other people who are degenerate gamblers & they like to play poker, so they also put down poker as a skill. These people also set up a precedent in many interviewers' minds that poker players are degenerate gamblers, and once they see that on your resume, they're reminded of the other degenerate gamblers they interview, and that could knock you right out.

I'm not saying this is all interviewers, but I'd say most. At least the guys that I know who hire people, they understand that poker is a skill game, since I've explained it to them, but many would just trash that resume. They got to weed out people anyways. They don't care about hiring some diamond in the rough, they just want to weed out potential bombs, such as degenerate gamblers.

[mbishop]

[ QUOTE ]
There's nothing about putting poker as a hobby that implies anything illegal. For all they know it could mean home games with your buddies twice a week.

[/ QUOTE ]

Agreed. However, part of the OP's argument for including it was:

[ QUOTE ]
...Playing on 8 tables, making EV decisions subconsciously and keeping track of many games via statistic calculating software would certainly seem like a positive.

[/ QUOTE ]

Obviously, most of that argument only applies to online.

[fslexcduck]

haven't read the rest of the replies, but i would not mind putting it on the resume if you are very successful. best thing though is to slip it in when they ask you about yourself and what you do.

in my interview with mercer oliver wyman, the entire 30 min of fit interview we wound up talking about poker - it was pretty cool... and all the other firms i threw it in and they seemed to like it/not dislike it as well... the firm i wound up choosing definitely had some poekr talks with me throughout the recrutiing process.

all that is just evidence that it can definitely make youseem like a good fit so i would not mind bringing it up at all.

[Jim C]

Go rent the movie "Owning Mahoney". This is an outstanding movie, based on the real life of the protagonist played by Phillip Seymour Hoffman. He was a VP at a bank and a compulsive gambler.

Watch it, then reflect on the fact that for the vast majority of people, poker is "gambling" just like horses, sports, blackjack or other table games. You need a specialized education to understand how poker is different, and the fact is that for 99.9% of poker players it is NOT any different from these other forms of gambling.

After watching this movie, think about how a bank executive might be extra sensitive and quick to conclude someone has a "gambling problem".

Jim

[dustyn]

So if someone puts one of their hobbies as "wine tasting," do you conclude they are an alcoholic too? Because you watched some movie about a guy who destroyed his life because of a DUI?

[TruePoker CEO]

"There are an infinite amount of poker-to-business analogies to be made, ... "

Sorry to say, but I again disagree that this is a good idea. Those sorts of stretches may sound great to a poker player, as both players and industry actors tend to be self-validating, but they are not very meaningful in a general business employment context.

Get the job/any relevant job, apply these poker-generated skills you think will help you and make your mark that way.

Unless the job IS poker related, don't try and make more of your poker skills than what they will be perceved as by the hiring/employment world.

[Jim C]

No. But that completely misses my point. FWIW, "wine tasting" doesn't belong on a resume either.

The thing to always remember about job interviews and any other form of selling is that the interaction is not about you, it is about *them*. You align yourself or your product (which is you in an interview) to their stated and unstated needs and address their stated and (most importantly) unstated objections. Raising possible objections of your own is no way to accomplish this.

Comparing drinking to gambling is an irrelevant straw man. The fact is that drinking is more accepted in society. If you have this particular axe to grind, that's fine, but a resume and job interview are not the place to do it.

Especially in a job interview, it is extremely important to keep your objectives in mind. If you are there to be admired, understood, and approved of, you are there for the wrong reasons and you don't stand a chance. You should be there to understand their needs and concerns, and show how you fit what *they* think they want. (All of this assumes you want the job, never forget that you make the ultimate decision about what work you will do).

If you really want to know how to knock an interview out of the park, read "SPIN Selling", which is an amazing book about the buying/selling process written by academic psychologist Niel Rackham.

The correct approach is to find out what the interviewer's perspective is, then link to that. The reason you don't put something like poker on your resume is there is no way to know in advance how the reader will interpret it, and there is a large probability that it will be interpreted negatively.

The resume's ONLY role is to get you an interview. It should not reveal any more information than absolutely necessary to accomplish this objective. The information it reveals should not be subject to negative interpretation, unless you are doing it deliberately to perform a screening of your own -- screening out certain types of management for whom you won't work.

Once you have the interview, you should use SPIN techniques to determine what the buyer (interviewer) *really* wants (as opposed to what their politically-correct advertisement *says* they want) and link to it.

If your interviewer offers that poker players are among the smartest people he's ever known, you *still* shouldn't talk about poker until you find out if he thinks that's a good thing. He may have found these super-smart people to be totally unmanageable and is leery of them, in which case you will downplay it and talk about all the reasons why management and team-based work are important to you.

Do not bring your own value judgements into interviews. Use the interview to determine their value judgements and explain yourself using their terminology.

I may not have a lot to give back to this community about poker (yet), but this is an area in which I have a lot of knowledge and experience. I've been on both sides of the interview process, including senior executive positions. If anyone wants a resume template, or to discuss these issues, let me know.

Jim

[Jim C]

I want to make one other point about resumes.

You should understand how the resume sorting process works. Typically, there will be hundreds of resumes for a particular job. Someone who is not the hiring manager, and does not understand the particular details of the job, will "screen" these resumes and try to narrow it down to about 10 resumes to send to the hiring manager.

Since most of the resumes will be somewhat qualified for the job, these resumes are screened for anything that jumps out as maybe, possibly, some slight chance of being a problem. The biggest reason resumes are culled is simply because they are poorly formatted and not pleasant to look at.

You need to accept and appreciate what is going on here. The screener is not interpreting your resume trying to see how your profile fits theirs, they are looking for the slightest indication that it doesn't! I really mean slightest, too.

You need to survive this process and get in front of the hiring manager. Nothing that could be interpreted negatively belongs on that piece of paper. That includes your non-work relationships, political volunteering, religious stuff -- anything.

I once saw an obviously well-qualified applicant screened because he put volunteer work for his church on his resume. "With all that time he spends with his church, how can we be sure he'll be available during project crunches?"

You must assume that *everything* you put down will be interpreted in the most negative possible way at first. With hundreds of qualified applicants for the good jobs, arbitrary screening methods are used.

Its like fighter pilots for the US military. Many, many people consider this the greatest job in the world. There are tens of thousands of applicants for each position. There are hundreds of perfectly qualified applicants who could perform the job just fine. So the DOD raises the bar with silly requirements just to get the numbers down to a managable level. For example, you can't be a military aviator if you've had a tooth filling.

Even if this phenomenon didn't occur, you must understand that most people don't know how to hire anyone! They don't know what they're doing. Really. To use a poker analogy, this turns them into scared fish who check down their pocket kings when an A turns, and never raise preflop without AA or KK. These people are fear motivated.

Most people who will look at your resume will be fear motivated. For your part, you should try to work some place where they're not.

FWIW,
Jim

[dustyn]

Jim, I am a recruiter, I understand all of this. My comment was tongue in cheek...I was being facetious to make a point. A point being that interpreting a hobby in the most extreme, negative fashion is being ridiculous. Yes, some people do this at companies...but do you want to work for a company like that anyway?

That said, I agree with most of what you said, but the resume is useful for more than getting an interview. Often times when a hiring committee is reviewing candidates after the final interview, they are in the room...with the resumes of each candidate. So the resume is, ironically, the first and last thing they review during the hiring process. Of course this depends on the decision making process for the company.

Once you're past the age of 23 and have your first job out of college, I think, for the most part, you aren't competing with 300 other qualified people for a job (and if you are, you're in a field that sucks). Even then, like I said in my previous post, if you are sending resumes off to random job postings on monster.com, you are not conducting an effective job search if this is what "look for a job" means to you.

People have differing opinions of whether or not you should put "hobbies" on a resume. There are arguments for both sides. I've seen successful people at all levels of organizations put their hobbies on a resume, and yes, that has included things like wine tasting, seeing operas and stuff like that. It's not a universally accepted truism that hobbies are taboo on a resume. The purpose for putting hobbies on a resume is as a means of establishing a connection between a hiring manager and candidate. It seems way more common among sales/marketing/business types than engineering/IT/scientific types, at least in my experience. It also depends on what industry you come from too. In more liberal areas like the Bay Area and SoCal, I see things like hobbies on resumes much more frequently than in NYC. For better or for worse, hobbies make your resume stand out. Sometimes that's good, sometimes it's not.

-dustyn

[Skipbidder]

It is probably a foolish idea to do what I did.

I was very upfront about it to my future bosses.

I even asked whether it would be acceptable for me to bring my laptop to work to play poker (on call nights every fourth or fifth day when I'm forced to be in the hospital but sometimes not doing anything).

It probably would have been very difficult for me to find anything to say that would have stopped me from getting a contract offer.

I warned them that I'd be unlikely to be taking moonlighting hours because it would be a pay cut for me in comparison to playing poker.

This was a really stupid, unhelpful reply. Sorry about that.

[Jim C]

Dustyn, all good points.

[ QUOTE ]
Sometimes that's good, sometimes it's not.

[/ QUOTE ]

My point is that if you don't know in advance, always take the conservative route with these things. On the other hand, if you knew the hiring manager was a poker fan, that would be a different thing entirely.

Remember that many posters here, including the OP, are just finishing college and don't have industry contacts, etc. For my last several positions I have not needed a resume, they were not competitive selections. That only happens after a while, as you know.

While I've made my final selections with resumes in front of me, they were mostly just to remind me of particular details of the interview process. The interviews and the writing samples always were 99% of my selection criteria.

[dustyn]

Yep, I agree with you. In my initial post I felt it should be left out as well. However, I also believe a lot of people here are overestimating the impact putting hobbies/poker on a resume will have on your abliity to get a job. It is more likely to hurt than help, but it's more likely not to matter than either of the former. Good discussion.

[knicknut]

Thanks for all the replies. Although on one hand the resume just gets you in the door, on the other hand it can steer conversation to a common interest. I remember my best interview last year was because both my interviewers were golfers who liked my school's course (but were mad they didn't have the daylight left to play it after my interview). We ended up talking about the course and golf for the first 5 and last 5 minutes (because I put that I am on the club golf team on my resume) and it was the closest I got to getting a junior internship as a sophomore. So there's something to be said for common interests.

That said, you also run the risk of what Jim C's been discussing, especially since a lot of these firms' recruiters are female and are less likely to have an interest in poker (on average).

So, I'm 7/8 for getting 1st rounds with different banks so far, but 0/3 on consulting firms... there are obviously tons of other variables unrelated to my resume, but of course I fear that poker could be significant.

Will update with how my interviewers react to poker (if at all).

[Dan BRIGHT]

just dress really nice and pretend you like sports

duh

[Mike Gallo]

I recently interviewed for a top level management position. I had several interviews. I did not include poker on my resume or discuss poker at all.

Do a search, many posters we have discussed this topic many times.

I did get the position.

[PancakeBoy]

I didn't put on my resume but I talked about it a lot during interviews at a big bulge-bracket Wall St. firm and they were definitely pleased to hear about it.

I know some hedgefunds specifically look for poker players and one in NY has a twice weekly poker class.

[pr0crast]

[ QUOTE ]
"There are an infinite amount of poker-to-business analogies to be made, ... "

Sorry to say, but I again disagree that this is a good idea. Those sorts of stretches may sound great to a poker player, as both players and industry actors tend to be self-validating, but they are not very meaningful in a general business employment context.

Get the job/any relevant job, apply these poker-generated skills you think will help you and make your mark that way.

Unless the job IS poker related, don't try and make more of your poker skills than what they will be perceved as by the hiring/employment world.

[/ QUOTE ]
You are right, in general. This was a very unique, entrepreneurial internship and they were looking for a specific type of person. Online poker fit into that mold perfectly, at least in the manner that I explained it. But I can't imagine another job interview where it would go over as well.

[Unabridged]

i wouldn't put it on there, the only thing you have to worry about is explaining gaps in employment. and i think saying your were self-employed doing internet marketing(read: rakeback) would go over much better than playing poker

[Burdzthewurd]

When I had to write my two-page essay to get into the Communication major at Umass, I didn't feel like BSing some story about how I'll get a job in TV or radio, I said that I wanted to get the degree to help my poker skills in terms of interacting with people, reading and picking up tells, and making myself marketable when I do make a name for myself. The department said it would usually take a week to be accepted into the major. Took me one day.

[ggbman]

On a resume, poker is essentially useless. In an interview setting, it depends on your communication abilities. I am pretty sure discussing poker helped get me a partial scholarship to the college i am attending, but if you can't make some appreciate what you do, don't bother.

Interviewer's won't care as much about the game or the $$$ you make as how it relates to what you are going to do. If you can say, "hey, i had solid grades throughout college and built a $500,000 bankroll from scratch while i was interning and attending class while other people were out getting trashed" in a manner that makes you seem like an asset, poker could definitly be helpful

[Poker_Hoar]

Dustyn,
You seem to counter arguements where the poster asked for advice?

Like an earlier poster said. It may help 5% of the time. It may kill chances 95% of the time.

The poster is considering 'working for the man' in an internship. Shortly into the internship he will much better know the answer to your original question.

I have hired plenty of people for jobs that paid up to $100K a year. I'm pretty flexible with whatever people are into. I would be interested in his passion for poker and that would be a plus. What would really worry me is how much time he would spend playing on-line instead of doing his job--being productive.

So many employees waste away their time on chat, two-plus-two, etc. Online poker is just another form of on-the-job productivity losses.

So don't mention it until you have a great enough feel for situations that you already know the answer to these kind of questions in advance. That's called street smarts.

[DarthIgnurnt]

One of my biggest clients is (well ... was, I just resigned) an investment services firm.

They actually train their traders by teaching them poker ... it helps them think in the correct way, incorporating decision making using game theory and statistics.

They literally have a training room full of poker tables. They have an annual company tournament where they send the winner to the WSOP ME. They also have (or had, not sure if they still do) their annual company party as a weekend in Vegas.

So apply here (http://www.sig.com/), and poker on your resume will be well regarded.

Otherwise, leave it off.

[_TKO_]

Keep it off the resume for reasons stated.

Use your judgement in an interview. I would think it would 99% be unwise to mention it as something that you did/do for money, regardless of how much you earn[ed]. You might be able to find a spot about anaytical skills or reading people. ie "It's sort of like in poker..." You can use your knowledge of the game but avoid stating how much you play.

[AaronBrown]

I read through all the answers so far, and think you have most of the correct answer already (plus a lot of other stuff).

One aspect no one seems to have addressed is how common it is. In the 1970s and early 80's, up to 1987, it was very common to have poker on the resume for competitive jobs like consulting and investment banking. You needed some highly competitive individual sport or game, poker was a popular choice. It also got a reputation for being frequently bluffed: if you claim to be a good chess player I can find that out in 3 seconds, if you claim to be the ivy league squash epee champion I can check that, but if you say you're a successful poker player it would take at least half an hour and maybe much longer to test it, and there's no way to check records.

Poker pretty much disappeared from resumes in my experience from 1987 until about 1999 when the poker boom went mainstream. Now you see it, although not as frequently as in 1980. The mention has changed as well. In 1980 you said you were a serious moderate-stake player in college, and you went to Gardena or Las Vegas to play in some high stakes games where you broke even and realized it would take too much effort, and maybe be impossible, to make consistent money at that level; but that you treasured the knowledge that the top pros couldn't take all your money. You'd better know things like the floor layout and games at Gardena, and the names of the top pros you played. You also might find that the interviewer knew other people who played at your college; you better know them and vice versa.

Today, I only see mentions of on-line play, and the only statistic is how much money the person made. The idea isn't "I have the skills of the best poker players: people sense, calculation, nerve and risk management," it's "I found an opportunity and had the initiative and talent to exploit it." In the old days, you boasted about how good the people you played were, today you would boast how clever you were to find losers.

I have two other observations. First is that what you put on a resume is less important that what you do about it. It should be there because you want to talk about it, and you'd better have something to say that will help you get the job. Lessons you learned from poker, skills it demonstrates, whatever. And you have to be credible. If you say, "I am the best poker player in the world," you sound like an idiot or a blowhard. If you give a sincere and intelligent assessment of your strengths and weaknesses as a player, you sound like someone worth hiring. You have to be ready for questions like "isn't it illegal," "do you pay taxes on your winnings," and "how do you feel about the people you won money from." If you don't have good answers to those (and arguing that it's legal, or taxes are unfair, or you don't care about the losers are not good answers), don't put it on.

Second, for most competitive jobs, especially trading, you have to demonstrate some risk-taking experience. Risk management is not a skill that appears suddenly, late in life, when you are entrusted with other people's money. If you have it, it shows early. Poker is good for this, but there are alternatives. None of the alternatives is acceptable to everyone, so you have to pick your risk.