More On Assuming vs Believing

[David Sklansky]

Just want to make the obvious point that it is much more rational for God himself to prefer people assume he exists, and behave accordingly, than to merely believe he exists. Think about it.

Suppose you are a parent, a teacher, a president, or even an evil dictater. Members of your flock who are apt to be doing things you don't want them to, if they think you are not there watching, go off on a trip somewhere. You tell them that you are in possesion of satellite technology such that you can monitor them at all times. Some people believe you, some are sure you are lying, and some are skeptical but will assume you are telling the truth and try to behave accordingly. In other words the way you want them to.

Now lets say you ARE in fact telling the truth. And you observe the disbeleivers misbehave, the assumers pretty much behaving, and most of the believers pretty much behaving as well. When afterwards you call people on the carpet and administer punishment PROPORTIONAL TO THE AMOUNT OF MISBEHAVIOR you are astonished to hear from some that they expected a less than proportional punishment. Much less when compared to the skeptics who merely assumed you had the satellite technology. Only because they believed you. In fact most of those who believed you somehow think that they will get no punishment at all even while you are tough on much smaller "sinners" who weren't sure you had the satellite technology.

You of course look at them like they are crazy. Sure you would prefer that your words were unquestionably believed. But your much higher priority is that your wishes be met. So assumers who met most of them are a lot more to your liking than believers who don't. How convenient for some that they can point to a bible that claims God doesn't think this way.

[FortunaMaximus]

[ QUOTE ]
Just want to make the obvious point that it is much more rational for God himself to prefer people assume he exists, and behave accordingly, than to merely believe he exists. Think about it.

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Why? It's self-evident. He would be less bored if some primate sat across from him and made the effort to put him to task and to explain himself than shirk away from his power.

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Members of your flock who are apt to be doing things you don't want them to, if they think you are not there watching, go off on a trip somewhere. You tell them that you are in possesion of satellite technology such that you can monitor them at all times.

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Reinforcing your already-present power 101. Whether it's true or not is beside the point. It's a standard strategem to keep people in line.

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In fact most of those who believed you somehow think that they will get no punishment at all even while you are tough on much smaller "sinners" who weren't sure you had the satellite technology.

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Makes sense. Those that would believe you consider that the fact they believe without questioning you somehow curries favor with you, because they misinterpret the value of their belief in your system.

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Sure you would prefer that your words were unquestionably believed. But your much higher priority is that your wishes be met. So assumers who met most of them are a lot more to your liking than believers who don't.

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Whether your wishes are met or not, it is easier to assure that they will be met by a mass of individuals if you imprint the fact that to do otherwise would cause irreparable harm. Whether the intents are good or evil really is irrelevant to the discussion. The interesting part is actually the rebellious sort who actually gives the leader a reason to look at his system and how to finetune it, for the masses. It's a constant refining process, and how else are you going to get the critical data you need to improve the system in its whole?

For the point is to improve the ideology or methodology, not to quash independence or original thought.

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How convenient for some that they can point to a bible that claims God doesn't think this way.

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For many, it is not necessarily a matter of convenience, they are literally unable to sidestep and look at things differently. It is for those the whole system is built for. Fences and restraints are a necessary evil of any kind of leadership.

[spoohunter]

I don't really think rational thinking has any place in a discussion of religion.

[She]

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I don't really think rational thinking has any place in a discussion of religion.

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LOL.. Now that's a rational statement. /images/graemlins/wink.gif

How else would people be able to discover that they might be living in ignorance other than rational examination? If religion is indeed irrational, or illogical, it will be proven so through close inspection. No?

Please tell me that you are not in favor of people remaining ignorant. By all means we should examine the code by which we live our lives as rationally, logically and scientifically as possible.

[KUJustin]

"Go and learn what this means, 'I desire mercy, not sacrifice.' For I have come to call not the righteous but sinners." Matthew 9:13

The answer here is being forgiven vs being "less" guilty (our guilt is a "digital" concept rather than an "analog" one, so anytime you bring up being more or less guilty it's irrelevant and/or meaningless). One is of the utmost importance, the other doesn't exist.

[IronUnkind]

David:

You are making some important points, none of which contradict the majority of Christian thinking. I've pointed out one verse which talks about this, and there are others.

I will agree that the doctrine of salvation by grace through faith can sometimes lead to this attitude among believers, which is heretical. But I don't agree that this ought to be unforgiveable (referring to your previous post).

[revots33]

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You of course look at them like they are crazy. Sure you would prefer that your words were unquestionably believed. But your much higher priority is that your wishes be met.

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Some Christians would argue that god's primary wish is not for us to live good lives. It is for us to believe in him even though he provides zero evidence that he exists. This strokes god's ego, and puts the believers into a special, exclusive club that mere do-gooders can't join.

[mjtandy]

[ QUOTE ]
Just want to make the obvious point that it is much more rational for God himself to prefer people assume he exists, and behave accordingly, than to merely believe he exists.

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God cannot prefer anything if he is a perfect and omnipotent being. As this is a human emotion and is far from perfect you cannot add it as a criteria of God's being, YOU CANNOT THROUGH ANY RATIONALITY ADD ATRIBUTES LIKE THIS TO A PERFECT BEING SUCH AS GOD - as this would make him an imperfect being and therefore not God, if he were to prefer one thing over another.

Thus you argument fails at the first premise and is decisively invalid.

[Magic_Man]

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Just want to make the obvious point that it is much more rational for God himself to prefer people assume he exists, and behave accordingly, than to merely believe he exists.

[/ QUOTE ]

God cannot prefer anything if he is a perfect and omnipotent being. As this is a human emotion and is far from perfect you cannot add it as a criteria of God's being, YOU CANNOT THROUGH ANY RATIONALITY ADD ATRIBUTES LIKE THIS TO A PERFECT BEING SUCH AS GOD - as this would make him an imperfect being and therefore not God, if he were to prefer one thing over another.

Thus you argument fails at the first premise and is decisively invalid.

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Can you explain why preference makes one imperfect? God prefers doing good over doing wrong, or do you disagree with that?

~MagicMan

[She]

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God cannot prefer anything if he is a perfect and omnipotent being. As this is a human emotion and is far from perfect you cannot add it as a criteria of God's being, YOU CANNOT THROUGH ANY RATIONALITY ADD ATRIBUTES LIKE THIS TO A PERFECT BEING SUCH AS GOD - as this would make him an imperfect being and therefore not God, if he were to prefer one thing over another.

Thus you argument fails at the first premise and is decisively invalid.

[/ QUOTE ]

Say what!? Of course God can (and does) prefer certain things over others. He would prefer purity over sin, obedience over sacrifice, and faith over unbelief. And you say that this makes him an imperfect being? Are you saying that he doesn't want us to study and know him? Are you saying that God has no emotion? Please keep in mind that though we are human and he is not, he still created us in his image and likeness. He gave us some of his attributes.
We could not possibly have a personal relationship w/ him without studying and knowing him. Am I correct to understand that if we ascribe certain attributes to God, then that makes him imperfect?? That is insane. Whether we are right or wrong does not change what is. If he is actually God, then he is God no matter what we think of him.
And as far as the emotion thing... give me a break! (Kit Kat please?) First of all, if we are indeed created by God then that is an attribute he gave us... so emotions originate with him. Second, according to scripture God does feel emotion.

a) God has pity: "As a father piteth his children, so the Lord pitieth them that fear him." Ps. 103:13

b) He gets angry: "For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness." Rom. 1:18

c) He shows hatred: "The foolish shall not stand in thy sight; thou hatest all workers of iniquity." Ps. 5:5

d) He is jealous: "I, the Lord your God, am a jealous God" 5:9

e) He is compassionate: "The Lord is gracious, and full of compassion, slow to anger, and of great mercy." Ps. 145:8

f) He experiences grief: "And they put away the foreign gods from among them, and served the Lord; and his soul was grieved for the misery of Israel." Judges 10:16

g) He rejoices: "And as the bridegroom rejoices over the bride, So shall your God rejoice over you." Isa. 62:5

h) He laughs: "He who sitteth in the heavens shall laugh; the Lord shall have them in derision." Ps. 2:4

i) He has sympathy: "In all their affliction he was afflicted" Isa. 63:9

... And of course you remember the notorious time that Jesus drove the merchants out of the temple with a whip that he had made? "“Jesus entered the temple area and drove out all who were buying and selling there. He overturned the tables of the moneychangers and the benches of those selling doves."

How is that for a description of an emotionless, unattributed God?? (And yes, I still believe that because he is God therefore he is perfect. Who are you to say that he (who is God) cannot have his own preferences?? He took Enoch up to be with him (Gen 5:24), and took Elijah to heaven in a chariot of fire (2 Kings 2:11). He didn't do that with anyone I know. And if He (being God) prefers on thing over another, then what is that to you?

[mjtandy]

i believe that a perfect being has no emotions because an emotion such as preference entials imperfection - a perfect being cannot have feelings.
Let me give an example: God prefers that human beings are not murdered, yet 60 years ago millions of Jews were murdered in the holocaust. God would prefer that this event did not happen, but yet it did and as you say that God has the attribute of preference, then this must have displeased him. If a perfect being is displeaseed then it cannot then be perfect as this would therefore mean that it was lacking something (in this case pleasure). Thus God could only have preference and be perfect if his prefence for the universe was exactly what has happened in history. ie. everything evil that has happened in the world was God's will if you want him to have prefernce and be perfect - is this the sort of God you want to believe in?

[revots33]

[ QUOTE ]
God cannot prefer anything if he is a perfect and omnipotent being. As this is a human emotion and is far from perfect you cannot add it as a criteria of God's being, YOU CANNOT THROUGH ANY RATIONALITY ADD ATRIBUTES LIKE THIS TO A PERFECT BEING SUCH AS GOD - as this would make him an imperfect being and therefore not God, if he were to prefer one thing over another.

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I don't see the point in arguing over the semantics of the word "prefers", as the OP was not actually stating that god prefers anything.

The point (as I took it anyways), is that living as though you assume god exists, would probably lead you to live a better life than believing you are saved because you KNOW he exists.

[Darryl_P]

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Thus God could only have preference and be perfect if his prefence for the universe was exactly what has happened in history.

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Good point and I agree.

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ie. everything evil that has happened in the world was God's will if you want him to have prefernce and be perfect - is this the sort of God you want to believe in?

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Yes it is. There are two (related) points I think you are missing here:

1) We only see the tip of the iceberg in terms of what is really going on. After death (and before life) there could be events taking place which put everything into a totally new perspective, and

2) What is good and what is evil is much more complex than meets the eye. I wouldn't jump to conclusions on this one. God decides what is good and what is evil. The best we humans can do is make educated guesses.

[mjtandy]

[ QUOTE ]
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God cannot prefer anything if he is a perfect and omnipotent being. As this is a human emotion and is far from perfect you cannot add it as a criteria of God's being, YOU CANNOT THROUGH ANY RATIONALITY ADD ATRIBUTES LIKE THIS TO A PERFECT BEING SUCH AS GOD - as this would make him an imperfect being and therefore not God, if he were to prefer one thing over another.

Thus you argument fails at the first premise and is decisively invalid.

[/ QUOTE ]

Say what!? Of course God can (and does) prefer certain things over others. He would prefer purity over sin, obedience over sacrifice, and faith over unbelief. And you say that this makes him an imperfect being? Are you saying that he doesn't want us to study and know him? Are you saying that God has no emotion? Please keep in mind that though we are human and he is not, he still created us in his image and likeness. He gave us some of his attributes.
We could not possibly have a personal relationship w/ him without studying and knowing him. Am I correct to understand that if we ascribe certain attributes to God, then that makes him imperfect?? That is insane. Whether we are right or wrong does not change what is. If he is actually God, then he is God no matter what we think of him.
And as far as the emotion thing... give me a break! (Kit Kat please?) First of all, if we are indeed created by God then that is an attribute he gave us... so emotions originate with him. Second, according to scripture God does feel emotion.

a) God has pity: "As a father piteth his children, so the Lord pitieth them that fear him." Ps. 103:13

b) He gets angry: "For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness." Rom. 1:18

c) He shows hatred: "The foolish shall not stand in thy sight; thou hatest all workers of iniquity." Ps. 5:5

d) He is jealous: "I, the Lord your God, am a jealous God" 5:9

e) He is compassionate: "The Lord is gracious, and full of compassion, slow to anger, and of great mercy." Ps. 145:8

f) He experiences grief: "And they put away the foreign gods from among them, and served the Lord; and his soul was grieved for the misery of Israel." Judges 10:16

g) He rejoices: "And as the bridegroom rejoices over the bride, So shall your God rejoice over you." Isa. 62:5

h) He laughs: "He who sitteth in the heavens shall laugh; the Lord shall have them in derision." Ps. 2:4

i) He has sympathy: "In all their affliction he was afflicted" Isa. 63:9

... And of course you remember the notorious time that Jesus drove the merchants out of the temple with a whip that he had made? "“Jesus entered the temple area and drove out all who were buying and selling there. He overturned the tables of the moneychangers and the benches of those selling doves."

How is that for a description of an emotionless, unattributed God?? (And yes, I still believe that because he is God therefore he is perfect. Who are you to say that he (who is God) cannot have his own preferences?? He took Enoch up to be with him (Gen 5:24), and took Elijah to heaven in a chariot of fire (2 Kings 2:11). He didn't do that with anyone I know. And if He (being God) prefers on thing over another, then what is that to you?

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I cannot help feel sorry for you. Please. Please, PLEASE do not quote scriptures at me as if to prove some kind of a point, just becasue some old book says something does not mean that it is true. for example if i found a book that said somewhere all sheep were gay would you believe it?
Also, why are we made Gods image? what proof do you have? Just think about it for a second. This is a theory created thousands of years ago as a way of explaining the external world with very little scientific information (eg.q: why are we like we are? a: because god made us that way)
Also, why would God want us to study and know him? If he is omnipotent, omniscient and perfect being how exactly are we meant to know him? we as human beings have none of these qualities, we are entirely imperfect thus we are entirely incompatable for communication and understanding of such a being. Furthermore, if God is perefct what would he want to do with us? He already is perfect and content so why would he concern himself with the affairs of human beings who are far, far below him.

[Magic_Man]

How do you know God is perfect?

[mjtandy]

i do not know that god is perfect but these bible bashing christians who are defending these crackpot theories do believe god is perfect, thus you have to argue with them on their own terms.