Interesting JJ Hand

[Oracle]

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, $0.50 BB (4 handed) Hand History Converter Tool (http://poker-tools.flopturnriver.com/Hand-Converter.php) from FlopTurnRiver.com (http://www.flopturnriver.com) (Format: 2+2 Forums)

UTG ($94.10)
Button ($28.25)
Hero ($78.40)
BB ($20)

Preflop: Hero is SB with J/images/graemlins/spade.gif, J/images/graemlins/diamond.gif.
<font color="#CC3333">UTG raises to $2</font>, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises to $5</font>, BB calls $4.50, UTG calls $3.

Flop: ($15) T/images/graemlins/heart.gif, 9/images/graemlins/heart.gif, 5/images/graemlins/spade.gif <font color="#0000FF">(3 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">Hero bets $10</font>, BB calls $10, UTG calls $10.

Turn: ($45) 6/images/graemlins/heart.gif <font color="#0000FF">(3 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">Hero bets $63.4 (All-In)</font>,

BB is a LPP and I'm not worried about him. UTG is a decent TAG/LAG who has been showing a decent amount of aggression in blind steals and taking advantage of position. He has folded to me when I have attempted to resteal or shown him more aggression. I have a very loose table image as I have been isolating weak players and showing weak hands (on purpose). I pushed this turn because checking is too weak and I'm a LAGtard. I think UTG would have raised the flop with a FD or OESD so I don't think I'm facing a made 5 card hand- I'm worried about the ace/king of hearts here. Any smaller bet gives those hands odds to call and I figured I may get a loose call from UTG with a TP hand (or a high single heart) given my maniacal table image. Berate away.

[Vern]

My first thought was I would re-raise more for two reasons:

1) I want the BB out and make this heads up, I don't care if he is LPP, there is a raise in front and I want the money in the pot.
2) I want to give UTG the chance to fold now. He raised $1.50 and you raised it $3, I think I would have re-raised $4.50 (to $6.50). Now, if BB call, oh well, but making UTG's call $3 into a $7.50 pot 2.5:1 (if BB had folded in your hand) is just too small to make him fold. Raise to $6.50 PF and get BB to fold and give UTG $4.50 to call into $9.00 pot, or 2:1 to call.

On that flop I am worried about draws and again want to take it here, I make a PSB with an overpair on a board with FD and SD possible on it. I pot it on the flop, this may be a time I overbet the pot too, but with BB short stacked you are unlikely to get rid of him, just make him pay too much for his draw, I think I bet what he has left on the flop.

Turn, as played, I think the only thing that calls is BB with any piece of the pot and UTG if he beats you. I think the time to overbet the pot was on the flop, not now. I would bet 2/3 pot and see what UTG did. Unless BB really sucks, he is calling anything you bet, you are not winning the pot here by overbetting.

[Oracle]

[ QUOTE ]
My first thought was I would re-raise more for two reasons:

1) I want the BB out and make this heads up, I don't care if he is LPP, there is a raise in front and I want the money in the pot.
2) I want to give UTG the chance to fold now. He raised $1.50 and you raised it $3, I think I would have re-raised $4.50 (to $6.50). Now, if BB call, oh well, but making UTG's call $3 into a $7.50 pot 2.5:1 (if BB had folded in your hand) is just too small to make him fold. Raise to $6.50 PF and get BB to fold and give UTG $4.50 to call into $9.00 pot, or 2:1 to call.

On that flop I am worried about draws and again want to take it here, I make a PSB with an overpair on a board with FD and SD possible on it. I pot it on the flop, this may be a time I overbet the pot too, but with BB short stacked you are unlikely to get rid of him, just make him pay too much for his draw, I think I bet what he has left on the flop.

[/ QUOTE ]

Agreed. I'm a limit donk that is scared and confused by the concept of being able to determine the size of one's bets. I'm sure this will come in time, but I see how the poor management of this got me into a pretty tough spot.

[ QUOTE ]
Turn, as played, I think the only thing that calls is BB with any piece of the pot and UTG if he beats you. I think the time to overbet the pot was on the flop, not now. I would bet 2/3 pot and see what UTG did.

[/ QUOTE ]

You don't see UTG calling with a hand like JT+ or K /images/graemlins/heart.gif+ against a maniac like me? I think betting 2/3 at this point may be a mistake as it would commit me and I'd have to call a reraise.

[ QUOTE ]
Unless BB really sucks, he is calling anything you bet, you are not winning the pot here by overbetting.

[/ QUOTE ]

He's pretty bad. But the point of this play is to charge UTG if he's drawing or get him to call with one of the hands I mentioned earlier.

[Vern]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
My first thought was I would re-raise more for two reasons:

1) I want the BB out and make this heads up, I don't care if he is LPP, there is a raise in front and I want the money in the pot.
2) I want to give UTG the chance to fold now. He raised $1.50 and you raised it $3, I think I would have re-raised $4.50 (to $6.50). Now, if BB call, oh well, but making UTG's call $3 into a $7.50 pot 2.5:1 (if BB had folded in your hand) is just too small to make him fold. Raise to $6.50 PF and get BB to fold and give UTG $4.50 to call into $9.00 pot, or 2:1 to call.

On that flop I am worried about draws and again want to take it here, I make a PSB with an overpair on a board with FD and SD possible on it. I pot it on the flop, this may be a time I overbet the pot too, but with BB short stacked you are unlikely to get rid of him, just make him pay too much for his draw, I think I bet what he has left on the flop.

[/ QUOTE ]

Agreed. I'm a limit donk that is scared and confused by the concept of being able to determine the size of one's bets. I'm sure this will come in time, but I see how the poor management of this got me into a pretty tough spot.

[ QUOTE ]
Turn, as played, I think the only thing that calls is BB with any piece of the pot and UTG if he beats you. I think the time to overbet the pot was on the flop, not now. I would bet 2/3 pot and see what UTG did.

[/ QUOTE ]

You don't see UTG calling with a hand like JT+ or K /images/graemlins/heart.gif+ against a maniac like me? I think betting 2/3 at this point may be a mistake as it would commit me and I'd have to call a reraise.

[ QUOTE ]
Unless BB really sucks, he is calling anything you bet, you are not winning the pot here by overbetting.

[/ QUOTE ]

He's pretty bad. But the point of this play is to charge UTG if he's drawing or get him to call with one of the hands I mentioned earlier.

[/ QUOTE ]
I understand the play, I am hung up on how the action would have been different if you had bet more on the flop. You have a weak re-draw (straight) and no part of the flush draw so you are looking to get money in on the flop, not worrying about what to do when the wrong card hits the turn.

[Oracle]

anyone else?

[pokerchap]

i guess i may be wrong or missing something but IMO this is one of the worst plays i have ever seen for sooo many reasons. the SD+FD hits and you open push?

[Raisor]

i raise more pre, i usually make it 7, from the small blind i might make it 8, if i dont take it down pre, and my cbet gets called i shut down. but usually one of those two bets will give me the pot.

[ymu]

I'd prefer a slightly bigger raise preflop - closer to full pot.

On this flop you definitely need to bet full pot - there are way too many cards you don't want to see on the turn, so you need to make villain(s) pay to see them whilst cutting their implied odds to hit.

With an extra $2 on the preflop raise, and then an extra $11 for your c-bet ($21 into a $21 pot), leaving you with $50 behind, villain #1 is calling $21 to win a maximum of $91 (if villain #2 folds). This is a -EV call with a naked flush draw, and very marginal if he has a flush draw with over cards because he won't always get your stack when he hits.

A $10 bet gives villain #1 decent odds, and villain #2 even better odds given that villain #1 called. It also looks weak, and this is a big pot, so it's not likely to get a fold from many hands that might have called preflop.

The turn push is marginal, but if you've decided to commit your stack, I guess it's OK. There aren't many hands that you beat which call, so it's mainly FE you're relying on. You have no outs against a made flush or a straight (more FE against a straight) and only 2 against a set (unlikely, unless it's 66). If you had a pot-sized bet or less left and had decided to commit your stack, it would work better - draws might not stop to think and call you with no implied odds to hit. If you're lucky, 77/88 might fancy their chances.

[theUltimateHero]

nice bluff /images/graemlins/smile.gif but seriously, i dont think anyone calls you with something that you have beat except maybe A10 with Aheart or something along those lines... but it might get rid of QQ or KK if they dont have a heart in their pair

[Redd]

I agree with raising pf a bit more an potting the flop.

I'd definitely ditch on the turn though. I think a push is a bluff much more often than it is for value. The decent TAG isn't going to be getting past pf with a hand like AT, and any losing hand that he could have called the flop with just improved. I think you're behind (and not folding both players) too often to push.

[NSchandler]

Like others said, make it $7 or so pf.

After the preflop and flop action, what could UTG have? Flush draw or straight draw most likely. A higher pair would have 3-bet pf, a set or 2-pair would have raised the flop on this coordinated board (especially having trapped BB in already), a lower PP folds, UI overcards should fold (might call since he's getting 3.5:1 closing the action and would have a gutshot).

So, that leaves us with something like AT, a flush draw, or a straight draw. And notice that of the straight draws, 87 (which just hit) is probably more likely than QJ since you hold 2 Js. So, I don't think there's much that you can be ahead of here other than QJs or AT, neither of which is going to call your AI. Not to mention that you need to be ahead of BB as well. Doesn't look good.

I think checking and calling a BB bet and folding to an UTG bet is best. UTG isn't going to bluff here if he has half a brain since BB will call getting 10:1 odds with basically anything. If he bets out, you have to give him credit for a hand. If BB bets out, call just because you're getting like 10:1 or 11:1 odds, but don't be confident about your hand.

[NSchandler]

Notice BB has $5 left, so a bluff is not an option here.

[gimmetheloot]

OP: Make it 7/8 pf.

c/f turn. Every single draw got there, and the pot is protected by BB.

[Thrahl]

RR abit more PF
Bet enough on the flop to put the shorty all in

Turn is gross. You have turned your hand into a bluff. You might get QQ to fold here but mostly this is a spew.

[ymu]

We're probably not going to fold to BBs last $5 - especially as BB is a horrible player who probably has a AT or A9, with or without a heart - so the issue here is getting rid of the big stack.

Most of the draws just got there, but that doesn't mean that the big stack had one of them - 78 isn't that likely for a UTG raiser. He could easily have 77/88 here given the small flop bet (which doesn't look like an overpair, given the board texture) or he could have called with overcards getting 3.5:1 on the flop. He didn't raise, so we have no reason to believe he had a strong draw - and a better hand than ours (99-TT, QQ-AA) raises this flop, as do broadway hearts.

I don't hate a push if we have a PSB left. Check/folding is asking to get pushed off by a semi-bluffing AhXx.