Foolishness of Christianity

[surftheiop]

Your beating a dead horse, the Bible addressed this apparent foolishness centuries ago.

Skalansky I assume your are just letting the non- Bible readers know that the Christian faith seems by the world's standards to be foolish. Anyone who has read the Bible would already know this as the bible clearly states this many times. Thanks for helping to spread the message of the bible even if unintended.

-"For the message of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God"

-"Brothers, think of what you were when you were called. Not many of you were wise by human standards; not many were influential; not many were of noble birth.
But God chose the foolish things of the world to shame the wise; God chose the weak things of the world to shame the strong."

-"I will destroy the wisdom of the wise; the intelligence of the intelligent I will frustrate."

- "At that time Jesus said, "I praise you, Father, Lord of heaven and earth, because you have hidden these things from the wise and learned, and revealed them to little children."

-"At that time Jesus said, "I praise you, Father, Lord of heaven and earth, because you have hidden these things from the wise and learned, and revealed them to little children."

[AthenianStranger]

[ QUOTE ]
You're beating a dead horse, the Bible addressed this apparent foolishness centuries ago.

Sklansky, I assume you are just letting the non- Bible readers know that the Christian faith seems by the world's standards to be foolish. Anyone who has read the Bible would already know this as the Bible clearly states this many times. Thanks for helping to spread the message of the Bible even if unintended.

[/ QUOTE ]

Not that kind of fool.

[surftheiop]

I think your pointing out that i did something wrong, but sadly i dont really know what your telling me, help a brother out and spell it out a little more clearly.

[FortunaMaximus]

[ QUOTE ]
-"I will destroy the wisdom of the wise; the intelligence of the intelligent I will frustrate."

[/ QUOTE ]

If only through sheer numbers. Busby Berkeley singing Scripture.

What was the point of your OP again?

[Prodigy54321]

lol, open and shut case Johnson!

I cannot pick apart your flawless logic /images/graemlins/tongue.gif

[surftheiop]

That skanlansky keeps making posts that seem to be directed against the Christian faith but if he read the bible he would know that this stuff is old news to christians

[FortunaMaximus]

So tossing out topics for discussion in a Science, Math, and Philosophy forum regardless of personal view to see what happens shouldn't be done?

OK then.

[surftheiop]

Hey if everytime i post about AC the ACist get to bitch "go read Mises then come back" then i feel its acceptable to tell skalansky to go read the bible and come back.

[traz]

Isn't it plausible that this is yet another device used in the bible to discourage critical thinking?

[luckyme]

[ QUOTE ]
Isn't it plausible that this is yet another device used in the bible to discourage critical thinking?

[/ QUOTE ]

Do not look behind the curtain. Ignore that man at the panel.

luckyme

[David Sklansky]

Your'e right. You do very rarely write about the specific beliefs you have that seperate you from a lot of Christians. But you do mention them on occasion and you do have these specific beliefs. And me and God think thats a shame.

[surftheiop]

Ok you confused me here, are you saying that you dont believe these Biblical qoutes are consistent with Christianity or are you saying something completly different.

[IronUnkind]

Except for Sklansky, the respondants to this post missed the point. I can hardly blame them, as even believers often infer a false dichotomy.

[KUJustin]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Isn't it plausible that this is yet another device used in the bible to discourage critical thinking?

[/ QUOTE ]

Do not look behind the curtain. Ignore that man at the panel.

luckyme

[/ QUOTE ]

I understand why you would think that, but if you were to crack open a Bible and read this in context (and if you're going to discuss this I don't know why you wouldn't..), you'll see that this doesn't apply.

Christianity is not foolishness to those who put their faith in the Bible. We are transformed by Christ and the way we see things changes. The point is not "Hey, don't try to figure this out." the point is that a hardened heart can't see the truth.

I think you guys often forget that virtually all Christians once had very similar ideas, questions, and criticisms of the faith that you do.

[Prodigy54321]

[ QUOTE ]
the point is that a hardened heart can't see the truth.


[/ QUOTE ]

it seems to me that this statement has no use whatsoever...if I don't agree with your "truth", it is because I have a "hardened heart"..and since we can't argue wether or not I have a "hardened heart" since wheter or not I have a "hardened heart" is decided by wether or not I accept your "truth"..where does this argument even go?

Isn't this a good example of some common argumentative fallacy...

I can't remember the name for it though...

basically saying, if you don't agree with this argument, it is because you are stupid (or something to that effect /images/graemlins/tongue.gif)

[Prodigy54321]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Isn't it plausible that this is yet another device used in the bible to discourage critical thinking?

[/ QUOTE ]

Do not look behind the curtain. Ignore that man at the panel.

luckyme

[/ QUOTE ]

I understand why you would think that, but if you were to crack open a Bible and read this in context (and if you're going to discuss this I don't know why you wouldn't..), you'll see that this doesn't apply.

[/ QUOTE ]

I think it applies perfectly...

and you using arguments from within christianity to try to show "..that this doesn't apply" doesn't help at all

it's like the man behind the curtian saying to luckyme "..this doesn't apply"...discouraging inquiry even further..I'd be even more skeptical

[IronUnkind]

[ QUOTE ]
and you using arguments from within christianity to try to show "..that this doesn't apply" doesn't help at all


[/ QUOTE ]

Unfortunately, this is the context in which the passages were written. You are confusing skepticism with ignorance.

[Prodigy54321]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
and you using arguments from within christianity to try to show "..that this doesn't apply" doesn't help at all


[/ QUOTE ]

Unfortunately, this is the context in which the passages were written. You are confusing skepticism with ignorance.

[/ QUOTE ]

umm, yeah, I'm confusing the two if we assume christianity (or the trick of the man behind the curtain) to be true..and since we are dealing with the apparent "foolishness" of nonbelievers, I can't see why we would to that to evaluate it..

[Prodigy54321]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
and you using arguments from within christianity to try to show "..that this doesn't apply" doesn't help at all


[/ QUOTE ]

Unfortunately, this is the context in which the passages were written. You are confusing skepticism with ignorance.

[/ QUOTE ]

umm, yeah, I'm confusing the two if we assume christianity (or the trick of the man behind the curtain) to be true..and since we are dealing with the apparent "foolishness" of nonbelievers, I can't see why we would to that to evaluate it..

[/ QUOTE ]

looking back at this, I guess you're right...there is no way of looking at this without assuming belief or nonbelief..

I could argue that starting from a point of nonbelief is best, but tat would be futile

[vhawk01]

[ QUOTE ]

I think you guys often forget that virtually all Christians once had very similar ideas, questions, and criticisms of the faith that you do.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is almost certainly ridiculously false.

[vhawk01]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
the point is that a hardened heart can't see the truth.


[/ QUOTE ]

it seems to me that this statement has no use whatsoever...if I don't agree with your "truth", it is because I have a "hardened heart"..and since we can't argue wether or not I have a "hardened heart" since wheter or not I have a "hardened heart" is decided by wether or not I accept your "truth"..where does this argument even go?

Isn't this a good example of some common argumentative fallacy...

I can't remember the name for it though...

basically saying, if you don't agree with this argument, it is because you are stupid (or something to that effect /images/graemlins/tongue.gif)

[/ QUOTE ]

I think its called poisoning the apple. Or something like that. /images/graemlins/grin.gif

[KUJustin]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

I think you guys often forget that virtually all Christians once had very similar ideas, questions, and criticisms of the faith that you do.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is almost certainly ridiculously false.

[/ QUOTE ]

I guess I can't speak for everyone but virtually everything I read on here reminds me of my early teen years (13-16) when I was debating the existence and nature of God. Most Christians I've talked to have similar backgrounds.

[vhawk01]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

I think you guys often forget that virtually all Christians once had very similar ideas, questions, and criticisms of the faith that you do.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is almost certainly ridiculously false.

[/ QUOTE ]

I guess I can't speak for everyone but virtually everything I read on here reminds me of my early teen years (13-16) when I was debating the existence and nature of God. Most Christians I've talked to have similar backgrounds.

[/ QUOTE ]

Then I'd say you are certainly in the minority. You honestly believe that the majority of Christians struggle with their beliefs, consider other alternatives, and spend a lot of time working out how and, more importantly, why they believe the things they do? If they really do this, then I've managed to live my life among and extremely unlikely subset of Christians.

[KUJustin]

[ QUOTE ]
Then I'd say you are certainly in the minority. You honestly believe that the majority of Christians struggle with their beliefs, consider other alternatives, and spend a lot of time working out how and, more importantly, why they believe the things they do? If they really do this, then I've managed to live my life among and extremely unlikely subset of Christians.

[/ QUOTE ]

A common discussion topic among Christians is your "testimony." I'm sure many of you have heard of this.

It's basically a combo of your life story / conversion story (only it's usually condensed to about 5 minutes). I've probably heard the testimonies of several dozen Christians and indeed virtually all of them (there have been a couple of exceptions) were coming from the same place that I see most of you on this board coming from. I may be experiencing a non-representative sample in that virtually all of these people were college students whose faith was the focus of their lives.

I have to ask, have you really asked these people how they came to these beliefs or are you making assumptions?

[MidGe]

[ QUOTE ]
A common discussion topic among Christians is your "testimony." I'm sure many of you have heard of this.

It's basically a combo of your life story / conversion story (only it's usually condensed to about 5 minutes).

[/ QUOTE ]

Are you saying that most christians have a conversion story. I doubt that very much. Most christians are christians because they were brought up in that culture.

I take the point that college students have probably a fair way to go before it is a lifetime held belief or commitment.

[KUJustin]

MidGe, I am indeed telling you that. You can view it however you want, but the above is my honest experience.

On the other hand, you make a very large blanket statement there without sharing your experience (Most christians are christians because they were brought up in that culture). I'll be straight with you and tell you that it sounds like something you've assumed rather than something you've learned by asking people about their conversion experiences. Absolutely feel free to correct me if I'm wrong, I just don't want to sit here and pretend I'm not thinking that when I am.

[MidGe]

I hoped you were going to reply as you did. Of course you seem to have a different definition of christains than most people have. The great majority of christians sects, catholics, orthodox, anglican/episcopalians, and most other protestant denominations have not got a testimony. I will exclude specifically charismatics, some catholics are charismatics and have atestimony perhaps, and I am sure anglicans etc. have too, I know, but they are a very small minorities.

I am happy to accept your testimony as long as you don't in the same breath, paragraph, page or book, claim that christianity is the biggest religion on earth. By your reckoning I would suspect that less than 2% of the population is christian and I am being generous. Christianity as you preesent it is a vey fringe phenomena, even if most of "your" peers, don't be too parochial here, are like you portray.

[JMP300z]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

I think you guys often forget that virtually all Christians once had very similar ideas, questions, and criticisms of the faith that you do.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is almost certainly ridiculously false.

[/ QUOTE ]

I guess I can't speak for everyone but virtually everything I read on here reminds me of my early teen years (13-16) when I was debating the existence and nature of God. Most Christians I've talked to have similar backgrounds.

[/ QUOTE ]

The many christians i come in contact with all affirm this but when i ask them the same tough questions say "yah i always wondered why but i guess thats just in gods hands" or "well figure that out when we die wont we" or "who am I to understand the will of god"

So yah...they questioned it....then they put aside such wisdom in favor of foolishness.

-JP

[madnak]

In the LDS Church, once a month during Fast Sunday, they hold a "testimony meeting." I too have heard several dozen testimonies. And not one of them has resonated with me or matched my experience. That alienation is part of why I became disturbed about religion in the first place.

And I've spoken with many people independently about why they believe what they do.

And I think what's happening here is clear - you're misinterpreting the atheist position on this board and trying to force it into the mold of your teenage doubters. Of course if you pay attention only to the similarities between what we're saying and what you know of rebellious teenagers, and without applying any objective standard try to support your view that we're just "immature," you'll find plenty of "evidence."

Why don't you post on of those stories that were "coming from the same place" as the atheists on this board? (And that's some claim, given that many of us are coming from very different places)

I'm sure we can clarify the differences between what you see in these testimonies and what the reality is if you support your claim by pointing out actual similarities, rather than saying it "seems to you" like it's all the same.

[KUJustin]

[ QUOTE ]
The many christians i come in contact with all affirm this but when i ask them the same tough questions say "yah i always wondered why but i guess thats just in gods hands" or "well figure that out when we die wont we" or "who am I to understand the will of god"

[/ QUOTE ]

This is an interesting perspective to bring up because I can tell you that your conversation with me would probably go in a very similar manner. However, I don't think it's a sign that reason was suddenly ignored. Why would I just stop acknowledging reason any more than you guys would.

Essentially certain events went against the ideas I'd established that made Christianity silly and I decided to explore the reasonability of it more objectively (prior to this I'd been as critical as possible).

Long story short, using my reason it became very clear to me that there was truth in Christianity. Now this is the part where I'm definitely going to lose you if you're a nonbeliever, but I basically compare it to "meeting God." It's not something I could necessarily describe in a way that's easy to understand but once my reason led me to faith I met God in such a way that the evidence no longer matters.

The evidence mattered in reaching that point and I don't ignore the evidence now because it certainly helps to increase my faith and it is helpful for those who don't believe, but you have to realize that it has little relevance to me at this point. God has revealed himself to me and so I know that if there's something I can't figure out it doesn't disprove God it just proves my inferior ability to understand something. That doesn't mean I don't try to understand, it just means that it's possible for me to believe and still not have an answer.

[surftheiop]

Midge what your saying is like looking at a 5 year old micro soccer player and a world cup star and saying the 5 year old obviously doesnt play soccer.

[vhawk01]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

I think you guys often forget that virtually all Christians once had very similar ideas, questions, and criticisms of the faith that you do.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is almost certainly ridiculously false.

[/ QUOTE ]

I guess I can't speak for everyone but virtually everything I read on here reminds me of my early teen years (13-16) when I was debating the existence and nature of God. Most Christians I've talked to have similar backgrounds.

[/ QUOTE ]

The many christians i come in contact with all affirm this but when i ask them the same tough questions say "yah i always wondered why but i guess thats just in gods hands" or "well figure that out when we die wont we" or "who am I to understand the will of god"

So yah...they questioned it....then they put aside such wisdom in favor of foolishness.

-JP

[/ QUOTE ]

Exactly. I dont mean to imply that they literally NEVER considered any of the issues in their faith, beliefs, etc. Just that they, whether they are honest about it or not (and I hate claiming that I know if they are honest, but I'm basing this on how clearly they can explain their beliefs to me) basically just shrugged and fell back on whatever their parents happened to teach them. Questions hard, I'd rather not worry about it.

[MidGe]

[ QUOTE ]
Midge what your saying is like looking at a 5 year old micro soccer player and a world cup star and saying the 5 year old obviously doesnt play soccer.

[/ QUOTE ]

No, I am not saying that, but continuing on your analogy, the 5 yo micro player is not playing for the prize money. He may go thru similar motions but he is not in the league.