Capital punishment? What a waste!

[soon2bepro]

Once you decide a certain human being doesn't deserve to live, why just kill it?

There are much better uses to be drawn from this form of life, including research experiments and slavery. (forced work is a form of slavery)

[chrisnice]

They came first for the Communists,
and I didn't speak up because I wasn't a Communist.
Then they came for the Jews,
and I didn't speak up because I wasn't a Jew.
Then they came for the trade unionists,
and I didn't speak up because I wasn't a trade unionist.
Then they came for the Catholics,
and I didn't speak up because I was a Protestant.
Then they came for me,
and by that time no one was left to speak up.

---Martin Niemoeller

[soon2bepro]

Is that supposed to be an argument against my proposition?

[chrisnice]

Yeah. Just put prisoners at the top.

[soon2bepro]

Doesn't make sense, that is not an argument against what I said. Maybe something else. Make your point if you want to, but this is nonsense.

If you want to speak against/for capital punishment this is NOT your thread. That's not the point here.

[New001]

The quote makes sense to me in this situation. Simply view the problem as a prisoner's rights issue. Do they have a right to humane treatment?

[soon2bepro]

why would they have any rights if they're being executed? hilarious /images/graemlins/smile.gif

[New001]

I don't understand why you're so confused here. You're arguing that they shouldn't be executed and instead be used for research, slavery, etc. Thus, they are prisoners and they are alive.

[_TKO_]

[ QUOTE ]
There are much better uses to be drawn from this form of life, including research experiments and slavery.

[/ QUOTE ]

There are two reasons for execution, neither of which include the absence of utility: one is deterrence; the other is retribution.

Your argument might apply better to the homeless.

[morphball]

[ QUOTE ]
There are two reasons for execution, neither of which include the absence of utility: one is deterrence; the other is retribution.

[/ QUOTE ]

How does using death row inmates as lab rats for horrid expiraments not fulfill these two utilities?

[UnitBubble]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
There are much better uses to be drawn from this form of life, including research experiments and slavery.

[/ QUOTE ]

There are two reasons for execution, neither of which include the absence of utility: one is deterrence; the other is retribution.

Your argument might apply better to the homeless.

[/ QUOTE ]

The OP obviously doesn't mean that the reason for capital punishment is to waste utility. He is saying that utility is a reason against capital punishment. Just because two ideas are opposite, does not mean that the people who hold these ideas came to their respective conclusions through reasons that are also opposite. Take, for example, abortion. Pro-choicers do not believe what they believe because they think fetuses are people and don't give a [censored] about killing them.


@Ace001: Yes, obviously the OP's idea conflicts with the current system. He is suggesting that that system be changed.

[_TKO_]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
There are two reasons for execution, neither of which include the absence of utility: one is deterrence; the other is retribution.

[/ QUOTE ]

How does using death row inmates as lab rats for horrid expiraments not fulfill these two utilities?

[/ QUOTE ]

Why don't they use torture as an alternative to execution?

[atrifix]

I hate these modern bastardizations of Niemoller's quote.

The actual quote is:

First they came for the communists, and I did not speak out--
because I was not a communist;
Then they came for the socialists, and I did not speak out--
because I was not a socialist;
Then they came for the trade unionists, and I did not speak out--
because I was not a trade unionist;
Then they came for the Jews, and I did not speak out--
because I was not a Jew;
Then they came for me--
and there was no one left to speak out for me.

[soon2bepro]

[ QUOTE ]
I don't understand why you're so confused here. You're arguing that they shouldn't be executed and instead be used for research, slavery, etc. Thus, they are prisoners and they are alive.

[/ QUOTE ]

...

The idea is that if you decide they don't deserve to live anymore, then at that point (the time where execution takes place), they should lose all rights. Once you reach that point, instead of killing them, their lives may serve better purpose. It's irrational to argue that they're still legally alive and therefore have rights because you didn't kill them (as they deserved) in order to draw something more useful out of them.

Finally, my point is: If they deserve death, then their humanity, along with their rights, should be gone. If this is true, killing them is a waste.

For the record: I'm against the death penalty, I think we're being arrogant and ignorant when we think we can decide who lives and who dies, without screwing up. Furthermore it's mainly just revenge, but then again incarceration is too at this point of time (really, who thinks people go to jail to recover?). "An eye for and eye and the world will be blind".

Though I don't have a moral issue with this, so I'm able to extrapolate the concept and produce an unbiased opinion.

[witeknite]

Would we get more than $40k per year of value out of any work/experiments that they would be used for?

WiteKnite

[lehighguy]

"Pro-choicers do not believe what they believe because they think fetuses are people and don't give a [censored] about killing them."

Don't they. I'm sure there are a lot that think it might be murder, but they do it anyway.

[New001]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I don't understand why you're so confused here. You're arguing that they shouldn't be executed and instead be used for research, slavery, etc. Thus, they are prisoners and they are alive.

[/ QUOTE ]

...

The idea is that if you decide they don't deserve to live anymore, then at that point (the time where execution takes place), they should lose all rights. Once you reach that point, instead of killing them, their lives may serve better purpose. It's irrational to argue that they're still legally alive and therefore have rights because you didn't kill them (as they deserved) in order to draw something more useful out of them.

Finally, my point is: If they deserve death, then their humanity, along with their rights, should be gone. If this is true, killing them is a waste.

For the record: I'm against the death penalty, I think we're being arrogant and ignorant when we think we can decide who lives and who dies, without screwing up. Furthermore it's mainly just revenge, but then again incarceration is too at this point of time (really, who thinks people go to jail to recover?). "An eye for and eye and the world will be blind".

Though I don't have a moral issue with this, so I'm able to extrapolate the concept and produce an unbiased opinion.

[/ QUOTE ]
Either you're skipping a step to reach that conclusion, or I'm still missing something.

[soon2bepro]

[ QUOTE ]
Would we get more than $40k per year of value out of any work/experiments that they would be used for?

[/ QUOTE ]

What difference does it make?

[Nottom]

I'm gonna guess thats how much it takes to keep a prisoner on "death row" or something like that.

[Borodog]

[ QUOTE ]
Once you decide a certain human being doesn't deserve to live, why just kill it?

There are much better uses to be drawn from this form of life, including research experiments and slavery. (forced work is a form of slavery)

[/ QUOTE ]

Using slaves to do something is very inefficient and costly in terms of providing security. Furthermore, what are you going to have these slaves do? Whatever it is you'll end up with government provided slave labor competing with private companies. Because they'd be subsidized, I doubt that private companies would be able to compete with government slave labor, even though the slave labor would be less efficient and more costly. Did you see The Shawshank Redemption? Can you say kickbacks and corruption?

[Nut4Dawgs]

[ QUOTE ]
Once you decide a certain human being doesn't deserve to live, why just kill it?

There are much better uses to be drawn from this form of life, including research experiments and slavery. (forced work is a form of slavery)

[/ QUOTE ]

First, I don't believe in capital punishment. I would rather see some form of penal colonies set up but that's another thread.

To me, it's no better, morally, to use the condemned for research or slavery. If you offer a condemned person the option of becoming a human guinea pig or execution and he/she chooses guinea pig, I could accept that. It would be his/her personal decision. And I think there's precedent.

I agree with BoroDog's thoughts about the slavery option. A good example is China.

[malorum]

[ QUOTE ]
There are much better uses to be drawn from this form of life, including research experiments and slavery. (forced work is a form of slavery)

[/ QUOTE ]

I believe an attempt was made to circumvent the best efforts of the abolishionists, in Angola Prison, Lousianna.

[FredBoots]

I don't think that just because a person is sentenced to die for a crime, they rights, let alone their humanity, are gone.

Are their rights gone because they committed a crime? This is dangerous because: 1) courts can be wrong, and 2) we don't want governments to be able to make laws to take rights away (e.g., Guantanamo, Nazi Germany).

Are their rights gone because they were going to die anyway? This would imply we could torture terminally ill people because, hey, they are almost dead anyway.

Either way, this type of logic is sociopathic, in that it treats a person as a means to something, not an end in itself.

[ShakeZula06]

[ QUOTE ]
Once you decide a certain human being doesn't deserve to live, why just kill it?

There are much better uses to be drawn from this form of life, including research experiments and slavery. (forced work is a form of slavery)

[/ QUOTE ]

It's called cruel and unusual punishment.

How about we harvest there organs and sell them to doctors like they do in China?