Neteller's updated position

[m bozeman]

Looks like bad news on the horizon for us.

Neteller's statement (http://investors.neteller.com/neteller/upload/Pressreleaseupdate19oct06Final.pdf)

[breaktwister]

Total idiots. Its laughable. Another business willing to give up its no1 spot (a la Partypoker) for no good reason other than to "protect our shareholders, business partners, employees and reputation".

What a joke. I'd love to know how destroying the business will protect shareholders?

Another company will surely step into Netellers vacated shoes.

[Reef]

unbelievable

[m bozeman]

I guess we need to start looking for a new funding source.

[Obfuscation]

Well, that's the big one we've all been fearing. Seemed inevitable, really.

Back into the shadows we may go.

[j2zooted]

any chance this is lip service to keep the fed regulations of their back?

[m bozeman]

Anyone else getting tired of this $hit?? More bad news every other day.

[grandgnu]

This should be stickied or added to the FAQ

[Wakko]

can still withdraw. i haven't put money into neteller in 4 years.

[StellarWind]

[ QUOTE ]
Total idiots. Its laughable. Another business willing to give up its no1 spot (a la Partypoker) for no good reason other than to "protect our shareholders, business partners, employees and reputation".

[/ QUOTE ]
In the long run it isn't possible for Neteller to keep both its U.S. and non-U.S. business.

Whoever runs money for U.S. online gamblers is going to get their hands very dirty. We'll trust our money to that type of business because we will have absolutely no choice.

The rest of the world does have a choice. They are not going to patronize a shadowy financial institution that constantly bends the law and shoots every angle it can find.

This was inevitable. Neteller's position in non-U.S. business is too valuable to risk going to war with the U.S. government. But never fear, someone will rise up to take their place. For every "Party Poker" business that has grown soft and respectable there is an Absolute Poker that understands that the online gambling business is not for the faint-of-heart. Moving corporate offices away from safe havens to places like London was extremely foolish business strategy. At best it was a "greater fool" scheme to sacrifice the long-term good of the business in hopes of unloading the company onto a naive public via IPO.

Everything needs to be out of reach of the U.S. government--operations, corporate offices, employees, banks, system providers, and support services. This takes planning and long-term vision. It's not something you just pull together after the crisis hits.

Right now we're seeing who is ready for some football and who isn't.

Neteller was never ready. "Barclays Bank" is all you need to know about their thought process.

[pokerraja]

horrible news. im surprised this thread isnt generating more interest.

[jrz1972]

[ QUOTE ]
can still withdraw. i haven't put money into neteller in 4 years.

[/ QUOTE ]

That doesn't do you much good if Neteller won't allow you to deposit at Full Tilt.

[jrz1972]

[ QUOTE ]
horrible news. im surprised this thread isnt generating more interest.

[/ QUOTE ]

It's probably because there's another 4-pager on this topic at the bottom of the page. Although that one turned into a weird flame war involving Frist somehow.

[dneedle1]

I'm curious as to why so many people expect Neteller to brazenly violate US law. Their announcement is unsurprising. In fact, from a legal point of view, the "safer" thing to do is to do what Party did and just give up the ghost. Now I'm a player, and I'd HATE HATE HATE to lose neteller-- its been great for me. But to expect a publicly traded company to just ignore US law (once the regs are in place and the law is thus clear) is to me just wishful thinking.

However, I do agree with the posts indicating that other businesses will fill the void. You don't need to be Adam Smith to figure this out. There will, however, be a fair bit of disruption in the interim.

One thing I am quite sure of is that we will always be able to cash our $$ out of neteller. The law does NOT affect that sort of transaction, at all, and I just don't stay up nights worrying about neteller stealing my money, not at all. So, this is bad news, no two ways about it, and no sugar-coating it, but it happily doesn't change anything YET.

[shelly11]

So what do we do now?

[zerosports]

[ QUOTE ]
So what do we do now?

[/ QUOTE ]
keep a sufficient bankroll in your site and start requesting paper checks?

[jrz1972]

[ QUOTE ]
So what do we do now?

[/ QUOTE ]

Just keep doing what you're doing. If/when Neteller closes up shop, we all migrate over to Moneybookers or Citadel or whatever other firm steps up.

Losing Party wasn't the end of the world, and losing Neteller won't be the end of the world either. It's bad, yeah, but let's not exaggerate it.

[Mr.K]

EDIT: Someone answered my question in a different thread. Sorry bout that.

Thanks for posting this, OP. Regardless of the answer to my narrow question, this is a major development, and in the long run, one that was probably inevitable as a result of UIGEA.

[Leader]

[ QUOTE ]
In the long run it isn't possible for Neteller to keep both its U.S. and non-U.S. business.

[/ QUOTE ]

As to this point, I was just checking out CentralCoin. They have this posted in their FAQ:

[ QUOTE ]
Who can sign up for a CentralCoin account?

Anyone with a US address and bank account can sign up for a CentralCoin account

[/ QUOTE ]

Interesting.

[MobBarley]

Am I understanding this correctly? We can still witdraw from neteller but can't use them to fund a poker site? Or are things still normal until further notice?

[j2zooted]

also maybe keep the chat boxes open on the tables, let ppl know how they can deposit money if any changes occur. most of the people on the forums will stay up to date, but i want to make sure that ppl who dont spend as much time with poker recieve this information especially.

[kleath]

[ QUOTE ]
EDIT: Someone answered my question in a different thread. Sorry bout that.

Thanks for posting this, OP. Regardless of the answer to my narrow question, this is a major development, and in the long run, one that was probably inevitable as a result of UIGEA.

[/ QUOTE ]

It looks like they're taking the "we'll do what they want us to when we're specifically told how to comply, until then business continues"

[adi]

i'm romanian and i have used moneybookers in the last few years, very few problems and the money gets from the poker site to your mb account in a few hours and from there to your bank in about 2 days. i've just started using click2pay, i made a withdrawal from full tilt and it got to them in a few min, after that you can use a debit card they send you to withdraw from your c2pay account at atm's around the world(only 2 bucks for any kind of atm cash out, i believe ). so basically you can have the money from your poker account in a few min.

[LuckyTxGuy]

Dangit. I was just about to open a Full Tilt account this weekend and fund it via Neteller. Is there any other trusted method to deposit? What if I deposit now and cash out by having FT send me a check etc?

Heck it's probably just not even worth it. I'm just bored not being able to play anymore. All my buddies have quit for good and will no longer play online, so I guess I should just give up and follow suit. I talked to alot of guys at the B&M this weekend and they had all accepted it was over too.

[antneye]

While I never need to redeposit funds, I do want to be able to move money from site to site to be able to take advantage of bonuses and such. This is really more of an inconvenience than anything else. As long as the big guns keep allowing me to play I will be happy. Even if the US fish market dries up I am ok picking on the fish from the rest of the world.

I may begin playing with some of the alternative sites just to big up a comfort level in moving money from account to account.

[m bozeman]

Things are business as normal with Neteller for now. However, when this legislation is firmly put into place, within the 270 day period, they will follow the bill and not allow us to transfer funds into these sites.

[m bozeman]

I searched the first 3 pages of posts before I made this, but didn't find anything about it; I guess it was a few pages back. I started reading the other thread about this, and like the other poster said, it became a flame thread about our buddy Frist.

[oreopimp]

there will always be ways for people to deposit and withdrawl to a pokersite and the pokersites in buisness will (I pretty sure) lay out and make sure poeple know of these ways and how to get money onto the site.

click2pay looks like it might be a valid option as well.

[Tofu_boy]

[ QUOTE ]
This should be stickied or added to the FAQ

[/ QUOTE ]

please do so.

[m bozeman]

Yes, but like another poster stated, how reputable is this going to be? Over the years, we have come to accept Neteller, and have trusted them with our funds. Are you going to feel as safe with your money in some new, start-up site?

[oreopimp]

its not about whether or not you need to redeposit, if a huge majority of the people supplying your income cannot redeposit then the issue of being able to only withdrawl is not the only thing to think about. granted there is the rest of the world and the gams will not just instantly dry up, but if a vast majority of the US peoples/fish could not put any more money onto a pokersite, it cant be good for the games of the future.

[Tofu_boy]

[ QUOTE ]
So what do we do now?

[/ QUOTE ]

It's really get me into 2nd though about all this. Will pokersite that now to stay all sudden will not take US players when July 2007 come????
/images/graemlins/confused.gif /images/graemlins/confused.gif /images/graemlins/confused.gif

[oreopimp]

i know click2pay is reputable. if the only concern was withdrawling you could always go the check route in the end, but the concern is making it easy for all to redepo on a site. Im pretty confident that the sites in buisness will and probably are aggressivly seeking out what options will and are availible in the future to us. Sites may choose to stay in buisness with us, but I cant see them just doing that if they thought it was going to be "hard" for us to get money on their sites later on.

granted its all words and press, but Im sure they feel there will be options.

Id just relax, drink and celebrate prohobition. It will be a little inconvient, but only for a while. things will get sorted and will get back on track.

[LionelHutz00]

[ QUOTE ]

It looks like they're taking the "we'll do what they want us to when we're specifically told how to comply, until then business continues"

[/ QUOTE ]

Yeah, the regulations don't even exist yet. Let's not start [censored] ourselves yet.

[Hock_]

First, there are lots of ways to move money around other than Neteller. I live in MD and so can't open a Neteller accunt and I manage just fine.

Second, there are all kinds of ways that the regs could allow various types of transactions. For starters, from what the banks and other commentators have said, it'll pretty tough, if not technically impossible, to draft air-tight regs on this issue. Also, the statute expressly provides the Fed with an out if it finds that a particular category of transactions is "impractical" (I think that's the word used) to block. The banking industry will push hard on this option if it will be at all costly to screen transactions. And we only need ONE exclusion or one loophole to get money into and out of the sites. You can bet that if there's any possible way to move money around the sites will do everything in their power to make it as easy as possible for their customers to use it.

[Tofu_boy]

[ QUOTE ]
its not about whether or not you need to redeposit, if a huge majority of the people supplying your income cannot redeposit then the issue of being able to only withdrawl is not the only thing to think about. granted there is the rest of the world and the gams will not just instantly dry up, but if a vast majority of the US peoples/fish could not put any more money onto a pokersite, it cant be good for the games of the future.

[/ QUOTE ]

That's what I'm worry about. /images/graemlins/mad.gif

[antneye]

[ QUOTE ]
its not about whether or not you need to redeposit, if a huge majority of the people supplying your income cannot redeposit then the issue of being able to only withdrawl is not the only thing to think about. granted there is the rest of the world and the gams will not just instantly dry up, but if a vast majority of the US peoples/fish could not put any more money onto a pokersite, it cant be good for the games of the future.

[/ QUOTE ]

We could rehash the debate about fish and the quality of games until the end of time. People who want to play will find a way. Not all, but many will. The growing legitimacy and legalization of online poker in the rest of the world will bring many new people to the table to replace whatever % of fish that may be scared off. The biggest issue we need to worry about is wether sites continue to welcome us. Everything else will work itself out because they would not be welcoming us on their sites if they could not get our money into their systems.

I am curious to see what impact (if any) Netteller's announcement has on the official stance of Stars, FT and the other brave sites that are sticking around for us. Them staying the course would be a good indication that this is not an issue for us.

Everyone is worried about the reputability of the new e-wallets that replace Netteller and Firepay. I would not be surprised to see online sites form a spinoff site under ther control that could assure the receipt of funds into their system. They need us all to be comfortable doing business with them.

[Berge20]

Is anyone else having problems opening the PDF release?

[j2zooted]

2/2 pgs came through clear for me

[m bozeman]

Not me, I just tried it again, and it's fine.

[Leader]

[ QUOTE ]
Is anyone else having problems opening the PDF release?

[/ QUOTE ]

I did earlier this morning. I got it about an hour ago though.

[orange]

[ QUOTE ]
Is anyone else having problems opening the PDF release?

[/ QUOTE ]
Me either. Can anyone summarize?

[Leader]

For immediate release
Press release
19 October 2006
NETELLER PLC
Update on US position
Further to the Company’s announcement on 12 October 2006, NETELLER Plc today
announced the following update in the light of the action on 13 October 2006 by US
President George W Bush to approve and sign into law the SAFE Port Act
incorporating the Unlawful Internet Gambling Enforcement Act of 2006 ("UIGEA” or
the “Act”) which includes certain provisions to prohibit “unlawful internet gambling”
by restricting gambling sites from accepting certain payments from US residents.
NETELLER, a company registered outside the US, will comply with the Act and its
related regulations as if it were subject to the Act’s jurisdiction. This action is
intended to ensure that the Company is able to continue to operate with the support of
its principal commercial partners and to protect its shareholders, business partners,
employees and reputation.
Various provisions of the Act, including the obligations of financial transaction
providers such as NETELLER, remain unclear. This uncertainty should be largely
resolved when the Secretary of the Treasury and the Board of Governors of the
Federal Reserve System issue the regulations they are required to prescribe within 270
days.
In view of the importance of these issues, NETELLER has accelerated its review of
the Act and all other relevant laws and pertinent developments. The Company also
continues to closely monitor the regulatory situation and is determining what actions
to take well before the conclusion of the 270-day rulemaking period.
In the interim, US-resident customers are able to use the NETELLER service as
normal. The funds of US-resident customers are held in trust accounts and will be
available for withdrawal, on demand. The ability to withdraw funds will exist
regardless of the customer’s location or ability to transfer to any site.
NETELLER customers not resident in the US are not affected at all by the legislative
changes in the US, and the Company will continue to operate its non-US business as
normal, maintaining existing customer and merchant support across all the other
markets it currently serves.
NETELLER remains focused on developing its business in line with its stated
strategic objectives including geographical and product diversification. The Company
continues to launch localised services within the European market, most recently in
Sweden and Denmark, and has plans for three further launches later this year. As
well as focusing on the gaming sector outside of the US market, the Board considers
the development of additional products and services for wallet users to be integral to
its diversified market strategy. We expect to share more information on these
initiatives in the coming months. The Company is committed to maximising
shareholder value both in the short and longer term, and will explore all possible
strategic alternatives, including utilising its substantial resources, to ensure the
achievement of its strategic objectives.
The Company’s trading update for the third quarter will be issued on Tuesday,
October 31st, 2006. In the meantime, the Company will endeavour to keep
shareholders informed of any material developments as and when appropriate.
Enquiries:
NETELLER
Andrew Gilchrist, VP – Communications + 44 (0) 1293 555 726
Citigate Dewe Rogerson + 44 (0) 207 638 9571
Sarah Gestetner/Sebastian Hoyle/George Cazenove
Notes to Editors
The NETELLER Group
With over 3 million customers in 160 countries, 3,500 merchants, and over $7 billion in annual
transactions, the NETELLER Group operates the largest independent online money transfer business in
the world. The Group specializes in providing innovative and instant payment services where money
transfer is difficult or risky due to identity, trust, currency exchange, or distance. Being independent
has allowed the Group to support thousands of retailers and merchants in many geographies and across
multiple industries.
The Group is quoted on the London Stock Exchange’s AIM market, with a ticker symbol of NLR.
NETELLER UK Limited is authorised by the Financial Services Authority (FSA) to operate as a
regulated e-money issuer. For more information about the Group visit www.netellerplc.com. (http://www.netellerplc.com.)

[LearnedfromTV]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Is anyone else having problems opening the PDF release?

[/ QUOTE ]
Me either. Can anyone summarize?

[/ QUOTE ]

Neteller will comply with the law as though it were under U.S. jurisdiction.

Neteller is accelerating its review of the law, which seems to imply that they may make a decision about its applicability to their business before the regulations are written. They refer to the 270-day window as a maximum. In other words, they'll comply for sure by the time the regs are written, and maybe before. So if during this accelerated review their lawyers determine that, once the regs are written, Neteller won't be able to do business with U.S. customers, they'll pre-emptively move to close U.S. accounts. The release does *not* say they will do this, only that they might.

For now, business as usual.

[dankhank]

this is in no way good news, but did anyone really expect neteller to issue a press release that said, "we are planning to ignore U.S. laws" instead of this?

[5thStreetHog]

[ QUOTE ]
this is in no way good news, but did anyone really expect neteller to issue a press release that said, "we are planning to ignore U.S. laws" instead of this?

[/ QUOTE ]No,im not the brightest guy here for sure,but this one was easy to see coming.Although,i thought they might wait till they were targeted before they bailed,and or admitted they were going to.

[m bozeman]

They had already issued their statement. Issuing a second statement was not necessary, and therefore this is bad news.

[StellarWind]

[ QUOTE ]
I would not be surprised to see online sites form a spinoff site under ther control that could assure the receipt of funds into their system. They need us all to be comfortable doing business with them.

[/ QUOTE ]
That is probably the one thing that cannot happen. Under the UIGEA a conduit that is controlled by a gambling site becomes an extension of the gambling site. That makes it subject to transaction blocking and exposes the conduit and its employees to criminal prosecution.

In contrast an independent foreign financial institution that conducts transactions with gambling sites cannot be prosecuted under the UIGEA for accepting gambling deposits. Nor can UIGEA regulations be used to block transfers from players to the conduit because such transfers are not violations of the UIGEA. Even the banking regulations themselves may not apply to a foreign financial institution. Notice how Neteller did not say they are subject to the UIGEA implementing regulations. They simply choose to abide by them anyway.

[5thStreetHog]

[ QUOTE ]
They had already issued their statement. Issuing a second statement was not necessary, and therefore this is bad news.

[/ QUOTE ]I agree its bad news for sure,im just saying i thought it was inevitable,if anything this just came earlier than i expected.

[5thStreetHog]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
They had already issued their statement. Issuing a second statement was not necessary, and therefore this is bad news.

[/ QUOTE ]I agree its bad news for sure,im just saying i thought it was inevitable,if anything this just came earlier than i expected.

[/ QUOTE ]Sorry boze,misread thought you were responding to me,my bad bro /images/graemlins/smirk.gif

[MycroftX]

OK, so WPEX and Absolute take Moneybookers.

Does Poker Stars? Will they likely add it as an option in the future?

For the most part Moneybookers gets great reviews, so maybe I don't care about Neteller eventually pulling out...

WPEX AP and Stars are the only sites I play now, so if they all take Moneybookers than Moneybookers here I come.

[cha59]

[ QUOTE ]
OK, so WPEX and Absolute take Moneybookers.

Does Poker Stars? Will they likely add it as an option in the future?

For the most part Moneybookers gets great reviews, so maybe I don't care about Neteller eventually pulling out...

WPEX AP and Stars are the only sites I play now, so if they all take Moneybookers than Moneybookers here I come.

[/ QUOTE ]

I've never heard of Moneybookers but the name sounds like it could be a potential buzzword to my bank.

Does anyone else know anything about Moneybookers?

[adios]

[ QUOTE ]
They had already issued their statement. Issuing a second statement was not necessary, and therefore this is bad news.

[/ QUOTE ]

Here's the first paragraph from their updated statement:

Further to the Company’s announcement on 12 October 2006, NETELLER Plc today announced the following update in the light of the action on 13 October 2006 by USPresident George W Bush to approve and sign into law the SAFE Port Act incorporating the Unlawful Internet Gambling Enforcement Act of 2006 ("UIGEA” or the “Act”) which includes certain provisions to prohibit “unlawful internet gambling” by restricting gambling sites from accepting certain payments from US residents.

The first statement came out the day before the law was enacted. The update comes out after. Seems totally logical to me and really doesn't change anything in my mind. Neteller doesn't even know what it has to do yet to comply.

Second paragraph:

NETELLER, a company registered outside the US, will comply with the Act and its related regulations as if it were subject to the Act’s jurisdiction. This action is intended to ensure that the Company is able to continue to operate with the support of its principal commercial partners and to protect its shareholders, business partners,
employees and reputation.

Clearly Neteller does not seek to defy the new U.S. law. I think it's fair to say that they never intended to defy U.S. law. Nothing has changed at this point as a result of this paragraph.

The third paragraph:

Various provisions of the Act, including the obligations of financial transaction providers such as NETELLER, remain unclear. This uncertainty should be largely resolved when the Secretary of the Treasury and the Board of Governors of the Federal Reserve System issue the regulations they are required to prescribe within 270 days.

More or less a reiteration of their willingness to comply. Also it's a statement indicating that future Neteller policy is unclear until they, Neteller, knows what they have to comply with. Again nothing has changed. Things will become much clearer when the new regulations take effect.

Fourth paragraph:

In view of the importance of these issues, NETELLER has accelerated its review of the Act and all other relevant laws and pertinent developments. The Company also continues to closely monitor the regulatory situation and is determining what actions to take well before the conclusion of the 270-day rulemaking period.

Clearly Neteller is reviewing it's options and it's potential liabilities.

[Proteus]

Moneybookers take less fee than Neteller if you want to upload funds (1.9% vs 3.9%), but they take a larger fee when you withdraw (2.3$ vs 1$), but they give you better exchange rate than neteller if that is necessary.
You can use MB at Prima, Wsex and B2B, you cant use it at Stars and Cryptologic. I dont know about other sites.

----------
Sorry my bad English

[MycroftX]

[ QUOTE ]
Moneybookers take less fee than Neteller if you want to upload funds (1.9% vs 3.9%), but they take a larger fee when you withdraw (2.3$ vs 1$), but they give you better exchange rate than neteller if that is necessary.
You can use MB at Prima, Wsex and B2B, you cant use it at Stars and Cryptologic. I dont know about other sites.

----------
Sorry my bad English


[/ QUOTE ]

Thank you for your reply Proteus.

Absolute Poker and Poker4ever accept MB as well.

Most sites pay for that $1 Neteller withdrawal fee, I wonder if the same is true for MB's $2.30 fee? Anyone know?

Any comment of MB's customer service?

Better exchange rate = awesome.

-BTW Your English is much better than a lot of posters here Proteus /images/graemlins/tongue.gif

[Proteus]

The withdrawal Fee i talked about was when you withdraw from moneybooker to your Bank-account. There is no fee when you cash out from the pokersite (except when the pokersite take a fee)

[meleader2]

Regarding this nonsense, all FT or PS has to do is instead of issuing a transaction from itself to Neteller via "Hi I'm a poker site please let Neteller deposit money here", it is simply "Hi I'm an international bank where your money is kept, here is a bank account number where your money will go" and Neteller won't know the difference, and ur account on FT/PS will be credited.

[curious123]

From their web page (http://www.moneybookers.com/app/help.pl?s=fees) it doesn't even look like MB allows US "uploads", has anyone done this? Also in another thread (can't remember where) someone stated that MB would not x-fer US funds to gambling sites. I'm waiting on a reply from CS atm, but in the mean time has anyone heard of this?

[popeye18]

What about epasspote? Ive been using this and it seems like its more ike an online visa which can also be used for shopping online and what not.

[curious123]

Well ePassporte is just plain shady, if you believe the majority of posts regarding them in the archives anyway.

[curious123]

[ QUOTE ]
Also in another thread (can't remember where) someone stated that MB would not x-fer US funds to gambling sites. I'm waiting on a reply from CS atm, but in the mean time has anyone heard of this?

[/ QUOTE ]

To answer my own question it seems that poster was referring specifically to credit card funds deposited to MB. My other question still stands though.

[PocketQueens90]

I used to use epassporte to transfer money into my accounts when i first got started (a couple months ago) before i knew about anything else. It works but it is shady and a hell of a lot slower than neteller. Although i havent heard their position on the bill.

[Perseus]

I've used epassporte a few times and they were fine, as far back as three years ago and as recently as six months ago.

[Nero]

Any idea on the likely schedule for the banking regulations to be laid out? Does it typically take longer than the slated 270 days or can we expect them to roll out sooner?

[curious123]

[ QUOTE ]
I've used epassporte a few times and they were fine, as far back as three years ago and as recently as six months ago.

[/ QUOTE ]

Your sample size is too small.

[Wongboy]

So how long until Neteller is gone? No US gambling transactions = no Neteller, IMHO.

I'm extremely curious to find out why they think that closing up shop will benefit the Shareholders, Business partners, or Employees.

[Python49]

I live in MD so i've never even used neteller to begin with. Moneybookers is better anyway.

[MannyIsGod]

I'm really suprised that this thread has made it this far and this really hasn't been brought up. Poker sites like Full Tilt have determined that the law doesn't apply to them because it only covers unlawful gambling which isn't poker according to the federal courts ruling of the wire act.

If thats truly the case, then transfering to sites like Stars and Full Tilt would in no way be illegal and Neteller would have no precedent to stop those transcactions from occuring. Now, using neteller to transfer to sites that have sportsbooks or online casinos is probably out no matter what, but if this law indeed does leave out poker, then this new release by Neteller means very little to the poker community but a ton to the sportsbook community.

[PokeReader]

I wrote about that issue, Neteller was in Maryland but left the state after Maryland banned internet gaming and were threatened by the state that they were aiding and abetting. (posted article about this on the sticky). Thus this position is hardly surprising, and completely predicatable. All the companies that defy the law will need to be private. Publicly listed companies are required to follow all laws and regulations of the countries in which they operate.

article about life without neteller -
http://www.sportsbookreview.com/Articles/11.aspx

excellent business week article about poker having to go underground and the role of e-wallets, (lists the other private e-wallets) and poker players being more vunerable to financial crime. - http://www.businessweek.com/technology/content/oct2006/tc20061019_454543.htm

[LadyWrestler]

Geez! /images/graemlins/frown.gif

[sublime]

it appears i have been overly optimistic, but this just looks like neteller protecting themselves as much as possible and not necessarily a retreat.

[Nate tha\\\' Great]

This is quite bad news, but as others have said, not really surprising. Literally every public company in the gambling space has closed its operations to US playes and there was no reason to expect Neteller to be any different. Forunately, the private companies have already domnstrated a willingness to arguably violate US law, and the liberal interpetations of the regulations that they're using to justify their position are no more implausible than what a privately-held NETELLER clone would likely have to do.

If I had to put a positive spin on this, it would be that NETELLER revealing its hand early creates more time for a new industry standard to emerge on the privately-held side.

[jrjunior31]

quote:

I wrote about that issue, Neteller was in Maryland but left the state after Maryland banned internet gaming and were threatened by the state that they were aiding and abetting. (posted article about this on the sticky). Thus this position is hardly surprising, and completely predicatable. All the companies that defy the law will need to be private. Publicly listed companies are required to follow all laws and regulations of the countries in which they operate.

article about life without neteller -
http://www.sportsbookreview.com/Articles/11.aspx

excellent business week article about poker having to go underground and the role of e-wallets, (lists the other private e-wallets) and poker players being more vunerable to financial crime. - http://www.businessweek.com/technology/content/oct2006/tc20061019_454543.htm

those are good links, thank you

the guy in 2004 concerned about neteller was right on target...

as for the business week article it seems this will be the dynamic: some players will be deterred but many will find the loopholes... they also mention centralcoin in tht article

I wonder if CentralCoin or Click2Pay is the next heir to the throne...I notice Tilt excepts click2pay whereas stars has centralcoin, I assume both sites would offer both in the coming months...

Anyone have any experience with either of these merchants?

[dingying]

quite bad news. . .

I plan to transfer money into poker/sportsbook sites asap. .. then worry about how to withdraw from the sites later.

Are Mansion and Pinny still "in" for US players?

[mikeh1975]

click2pay is very good.honest and worth dealing with.

[pushit7]

What's wrong with epassporte, besides sometimes the virtual visa isnt accepted?

[BeatPurdue]

I have used CentralCoin quite a bit and have never had any problem with them.

[Lawman007]

[ QUOTE ]
it appears i have been overly optimistic, but this just looks like neteller protecting themselves as much as possible and not necessarily a retreat.

[/ QUOTE ]

You're still being overly optimistic. Some of you guys will continue to deny the inevitable until the very last possible moment.

This is horrible news, but certainly not unexpected by anyone whose head has not been in the sand.

[CaseS87]

will we still be ab to withdraw money from poker sites via neteller?

[fish2plus2]

Neteller has stoped answering my emails. I dont want to live in SE Asia, but I would like to link a foriegn bank account, perhaps Sing/Hong Kong... Possible?

[m bozeman]

Yes, you can still withdraw money from sites to your Neteller. Business as usual for now. When/if they change their direction in the future, you will still be able to withdraw funds from sites to your Neteller account, just not vice-versa.

[fish2plus2]

then why did firepay stop allowing withdrawals?

[Nikoms]

So, what is the CURRENT status of Neteller? (Please note: I am asking a legitimate question - but I am curious as to the current situation - not what may or may not be the case in a week/month/270 days, etc.) i.e. as a U.S. player can I still use Neteller to deposit?

[MiltonFriedman]

Yes

[Exsubmariner]

[ QUOTE ]
Moving corporate offices away from safe havens to places like London was extremely foolish business strategy. At best it was a "greater fool" scheme to sacrifice the long-term good of the business in hopes of unloading the company onto a naive public via IPO.


[/ QUOTE ]

Ding, ding, ding, ding, ding, ding, ding....

We have a Winnar!!!!!

[donkeylove]

[ QUOTE ]
So, what is the CURRENT status of Neteller? (Please note: I am asking a legitimate question - but I am curious as to the current situation - not what may or may not be the case in a week/month/270 days, etc.) i.e. as a U.S. player can I still use Neteller to deposit?

[/ QUOTE ]


i wouldn't use them right now.I deposited on there 10-14 and the eft cleared my bank last week.They still have my deposit listed as pending which means i can't get my own original deposit back out.I got a hold of their live chat and they said there was a problem with their 3rd party processer.WTF i thought they were the 3rd party processer.They said that my instacash deposit made on 10-14 should clear into their account by 10-31.Very shady considering it cleared my bank in 3 days.I will not use them anymore myself.It feels like they are getting ready to close shop.They usually have great customer service but right now it is really bad and I wouldn't be suprised if it takes a long time to get your money out if ever.

[Synergistic Explosions]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
So, what is the CURRENT status of Neteller? (Please note: I am asking a legitimate question - but I am curious as to the current situation - not what may or may not be the case in a week/month/270 days, etc.) i.e. as a U.S. player can I still use Neteller to deposit?

[/ QUOTE ]


i wouldn't use them right now.I deposited on there 10-14 and the eft cleared my bank last week.They still have my deposit listed as pending which means i can't get my own original deposit back out.I got a hold of their live chat and they said there was a problem with their 3rd party processer.WTF i thought they were the 3rd party processer.They said that my instacash deposit made on 10-14 should clear into their account by 10-31.Very shady considering it cleared my bank in 3 days.I will not use them anymore myself.It feels like they are getting ready to close shop.They usually have great customer service but right now it is really bad and I wouldn't be suprised if it takes a long time to get your money out if ever.

[/ QUOTE ]

You say you used instacash, but you really didn't.

You used the free method, and that has always taken over a week depending on when you put in the request. It is normal for your bank account to be debited several days before the cash is available on Neteller.

You are over reacting for some reason now.

[I_C_ALL]

Unless I'm reading your post wrong, it looks like you were trying to deposit. I'd be more concerned if GETTING my money was difficult.

I withdrew $3,500 on 10/9/06 and it hit my US account on 10/11/06. I withdrew $200 on 10/11/06 and it hit on 10/12/06. These were both done EFT with no charges. For the mathmatically impaired, that's a 1-2 day time frame as Neteller's site indicates /images/graemlins/tongue.gif

[Jooka]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
So, what is the CURRENT status of Neteller? (Please note: I am asking a legitimate question - but I am curious as to the current situation - not what may or may not be the case in a week/month/270 days, etc.) i.e. as a U.S. player can I still use Neteller to deposit?

[/ QUOTE ]


i wouldn't use them right now.I deposited on there 10-14 and the eft cleared my bank last week.They still have my deposit listed as pending which means i can't get my own original deposit back out.I got a hold of their live chat and they said there was a problem with their 3rd party processer.WTF i thought they were the 3rd party processer.They said that my instacash deposit made on 10-14 should clear into their account by 10-31.Very shady considering it cleared my bank in 3 days.I will not use them anymore myself.It feels like they are getting ready to close shop.They usually have great customer service but right now it is really bad and I wouldn't be suprised if it takes a long time to get your money out if ever.

[/ QUOTE ]

You say you used instacash, but you really didn't.

You used the free method, and that has always taken over a week depending on when you put in the request. It is normal for your bank account to be debited several days before the cash is available on Neteller.

You are over reacting for some reason now.

[/ QUOTE ]

if he is really having to wait till 10/31 from 10/14 then that is no were near the norm even using a non instacash desposit.

[donkeylove]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
So, what is the CURRENT status of Neteller? (Please note: I am asking a legitimate question - but I am curious as to the current situation - not what may or may not be the case in a week/month/270 days, etc.) i.e. as a U.S. player can I still use Neteller to deposit?

[/ QUOTE ]


i wouldn't use them right now.I deposited on there 10-14 and the eft cleared my bank last week.They still have my deposit listed as pending which means i can't get my own original deposit back out.I got a hold of their live chat and they said there was a problem with their 3rd party processer.WTF i thought they were the 3rd party processer.They said that my instacash deposit made on 10-14 should clear into their account by 10-31.Very shady considering it cleared my bank in 3 days.I will not use them anymore myself.It feels like they are getting ready to close shop.They usually have great customer service but right now it is really bad and I wouldn't be suprised if it takes a long time to get your money out if ever.

[/ QUOTE ]

You say you used instacash, but you really didn't.

You used the free method, and that has always taken over a week depending on when you put in the request. It is normal for your bank account to be debited several days before the cash is available on Neteller.

You are over reacting for some reason now.

[/ QUOTE ]

I am not overreacting to anything.I used instacash for a $750 deposit that cost me $816.I had no other option since firepay closed shop quickly.You shouldn't offer your opinion if you don't know what your talking about.The money was available to use on neteller immediately.Now for some reason they say its not available to withdraw regardless of the fact that the original deposit cleared the bank last week.An overreaction would have been telling the op that neteller was going to screw him and take the money.I cautioned he may run into a problem as I have and it may take some time to get back your money.My response was reasoned and correct.Your response however was an overreaction and incorrect.

[CallYNotRaise06]

ok so i didnt read all of the posts, but does this mean as of today we can not deposit using neteller, or are they saying after 270 days? sorry if this has been asked before.

[fish2plus2]

i made $25k in deposits into neteller more than a week ago. debited from my bank after 3 days. ive sent them 12 emails, all have gone unanswered. i cannot call them from a foriegn addy or they will lock my account.

[donkeylove]

[ QUOTE ]
i made $25k in deposits into neteller more than a week ago. debited from my bank after 3 days. ive sent them 12 emails, all have gone unanswered. i cannot call them from a foriegn addy or they will lock my account.

[/ QUOTE ]

what about live chat?i got them today on chat....

[fish2plus2]

just spoke w/ live chat and they said one of their processor is having a problem. money should clear shortly in next few days.

[FreakDaddy]

So what non-publicaly traded companies would we consider reliable IF neteller does pull out of the US?

[I_C_ALL]

Donkey,

In all fairness to Neteller, there have been MANY security issues with Instacash. Their delay in withdrawing the funds you "recently" deposited using instacash, in my opinion, is not unusual. As I stated earlier, I withdrew $3,500 a little over a week ago through EFT and it only took 2 days. I then withdrew $200 same way and it only took 1 day.

I think given the circumstances of your case and how it relates to a previous and relatively recent instacash deposit coupled with the fact there has been no other problems withdrawing from Neteller would seem to indicate original poster will not have an issue.

[Negate]

Same here, I deposited on the 12th, money left my account on the 13th and I have still yet to see the money again. Using standard EFT. I contacted support on the 19th, told 2 days. Contacted Live support on the 23rd told two days, received email from support (same day) and told the 23rd I should see my funds, contacted live support today (24th) told an additional 7 days and to expect it the 30th to 31st. I asked to speak to a supervisor and they told me that one could not help but to call 1-888-258-5859 and press 0 and then 1 at the prompts if I wish to try.

My guess is that some change has been made at Neteller when the law was passed and instead of informing the customer they did not so our funds are not being made available in a timely manner.

[spidey74]

I just received all the money I deposited to Neteller on October 17th. Transferred it to an online poker site and played for hours last night. Feels great to be back!!!

Yes, there was a bit of a delay, but all is good now! If it is not good for you yet, it probably will be very soon.

[Negate]

From talking to support several times, this seems to specifically affect deposits 12th-15th. /images/graemlins/frown.gif

[zoldor]

EFT on Oct 12. Still not in Neteller acct. Customer Service is a f'ing joke.

[jrz1972]

If you can take a screenshot of your electronic bank statement showing that your EFT cleared your bank, Neteller will push the funds into your account. You won't be able to withdraw back to your bank until that EFT has officially cleared, but at least you'll have $$ to play with. I did this on Friday night.

[yeliabttocs]

...but they're still allowing us to fund poker sites in the interim, right?

[Negate]

Just called, they wouldn't do anything for me. Just told me US transactions were slow and it would take another 2 or 3 days for it to catch up. This morning they told me the 31st of Oct so I guess that is a bit better.

[Negate]

Money came through finally.