Reraised pot witk KK..flop AA (50 NL)

[BombayBadboy]

Hi all, new to these forums. Recently moved up to 50 NL and I figured I start to take things seriously now. To the hand:

Party Poker
No Limit Holdem Ring game
Blinds: $0.25/$0.50
6 players
Converter (http://www.neildewhurst.com/hand-converter)

Stack sizes:
UTG: $50.65
UTG+1: $47.25
CO: $16.94
Button: $19.70
Hero: $49.50
BB: $80.50

Pre-flop: (6 players) Hero is SB with K/images/graemlins/spade.gif K/images/graemlins/heart.gif
<font color="#cc0000">UTG raises to $3</font>, 3 folds, <font color="#cc0000">Hero raises to $10.25</font>, BB folds, UTG calls.

Flop: A/images/graemlins/heart.gif A/images/graemlins/spade.gif 4/images/graemlins/diamond.gif ($21, 2 players)
Hero checks, <font color="#cc0000">UTG bets $6</font>, Hero calls.

Turn: 8/images/graemlins/club.gif ($33, 2 players)
Hero checks, UTG checks.

River: 6/images/graemlins/diamond.gif ($33, 2 players)
Hero checks, UTG checks.

Results:
Final pot: $33

Villain is an unknown. I'm not sure if I like my line.

[Dunkman]

The only thing I really hate is not betting the river...that's a crime.

[Perk76]

I like a checkraise in this position on the flop. Leading the flop can be too easy to be picked off the hand by a worse hand than yours on later streets. A reraise on the flop should give you an idea of where you stand.

Whats your plan calling his flop bet? Just calling down the rest of the way, hoping to see QQ or JJ?

[AJGibson]

[ QUOTE ]
I like a checkraise in this position on the flop. Leading the flop can be too easy to be picked off the hand by a worse hand than yours on later streets. A reraise on the flop should give you an idea of where you stand.

[/ QUOTE ]

You shouldn't c/r raise unless you have good reason to do so. If you c/r here what worse hands go you expect to call? Also if villian does have a ace you just needlessly costs yourself a lot more than necessary. Raising for information is extremely costly, you should have a lot of better reasons for sticking your money in.

c/c is definitely the correct line here, leading will scare a lot of hands off, while c/c gains value from a good range of hands.

1/2 pot value bet on the end is definitely called for.

[BombayBadboy]

[ QUOTE ]
I like a checkraise in this position on the flop. Leading the flop can be too easy to be picked off the hand by a worse hand than yours on later streets. A reraise on the flop should give you an idea of where you stand.

Whats your plan calling his flop bet? Just calling down the rest of the way, hoping to see QQ or JJ?

[/ QUOTE ]

I want him to continue with hands I beat. If he bets the turn with any authority, I probably have to let this go. After all, he still has to fear me slowplaying something like AK. I agree that if i c/r the flop I know where I stand, but is it the way to maximize value? I'm not sure.

For the one that said not betting the river is a crime, you would probably bet/fold that river. For how much would you lead here?

[Dunkman]

I'd vb the river for $12-15. Not sure what I'd do if he raises, but I don't think that's gonna happen. Of course, part of the reason I don't think it's gonna happen is because he checked behind, but I'm pretty confident that I would vb here anyway.

[Shaddux]

[ QUOTE ]
I like a checkraise in this position on the flop. Leading the flop can be too easy to be picked off the hand by a worse hand than yours on later streets. A reraise on the flop should give you an idea of where you stand.

[/ QUOTE ]
No offense, but this is horrible advice.

Sure we get information when we c/r obv, but it's useless information.

[Shaddux]

Value bet river.

[Perk76]

Since I am the only one that likes to take an aggressive route...how far into the hand do you just CALL down?

[Perk76]

[quote Also if villian does have a ace you just needlessly costs yourself a lot more than necessary. Raising for information is extremely costly, you should have a lot of better reasons for sticking your money in.

[/ QUOTE ]

So its better to just call down spending more money and having no idea if your behind?

[Suwalski]

Since your out of position on river i'll just check it, he could very easily just been checking turn with three aces... Though if i have position on river, it's definently a bet.

[Shaddux]

[ QUOTE ]
Since I am the only one that likes to take an aggressive route...how far into the hand do you just CALL down?

[/ QUOTE ]
My normal line with an A on the flop is c/c, c/f. With two aces on the board, I probably call a smallish turn bet and fold to a larger bet on the river. If villain bet more on the flop, I would probably c/f the turn.

BTW, everyone here has advocated an aggressive route: value betting the river. Your c/r route is more aggressive, but it is also more spew.

[Perk76]

I think it is less spew overall.

If your behind, you will find out for less money overall. Also, people with QQ/JJ will also call with worse hands, not beleiving that an Ace would play it that way. Your only gonna get so much value from 1010/JJ/QQ depending on the player, yet you can get away from this hand if it gets hot on the turn.

I guess the biggest factor is the read of the player that initially raised UTG. If he is nitty, AK/AQ/AA are definately possible hands that you are behind too. If he is a liberal raiser with any pp, you probably arent getting a bunch of value anyways. Its the guy that raises any Ace rag that you have to wonder about here. Will he give you credit for a bigger ace, and lay it down, or is he gonna get it all in with a weak ace?

As played, I would bet the river also, since it seems that an ace would want to get more money in the pot on the turn.

[AJGibson]

[ QUOTE ]
So its better to just call down spending more money and having no idea if your behind?

[/ QUOTE ]
You can refine villain's range on the later streets, and play poker. Please read dbitel Pooh-Bah post (http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/showflat.php?Number=5354245) on c/r raising, it's very helpful advice.

[Shaddux]

[ QUOTE ]
If your behind, you will find out for less money overall.

[/ QUOTE ]
Raising in WA/WB situations is not recommended.

[ QUOTE ]
Also, people with QQ/JJ will also call with worse hands, not beleiving that an Ace would play it that way.

[/ QUOTE ]
?

[ QUOTE ]
Your only gonna get so much value from 1010/JJ/QQ depending on the player, yet you can get away from this hand if it gets hot on the turn.

[/ QUOTE ]
This reasoning makes it seem like calling the flop is the better option.

[Shaddux]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Also if villian does have a ace you just needlessly costs yourself a lot more than necessary. Raising for information is extremely costly, you should have a lot of better reasons for sticking your money in.

[/ QUOTE ]

So its better to just call down spending more money and having no idea if your behind?

[/ QUOTE ]
How do we spend more money? c/r are expensive plays. And as I said earlier, check raising for information on the flop is pointless if the information we obtain is useless.

[Freelancer]

This is clearly a WA/WB spot, call down and value bet the river.

Oh and Perk, villains are never folding a Ace here.

[BombayBadboy]

All,
thnx for the extensive replies so far. I like the idea of v-betting the river. Hands like KK,QQ,JJ,TT are likely holdings for villain and will pay off a bet. Maybe even lower pp's. I'm a nit by nature so I guess I'll have to build in that aggression. If we bet half pot, we have about ~15 left after that 15 bet. If villain goes all-in we..?

[Perk76]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
So its better to just call down spending more money and having no idea if your behind?

[/ QUOTE ]
You can refine villain's range on the later streets, and play poker. Please read dbitel Pooh-Bah post (http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/showflat.php?Number=5354245) on c/r raising, it's very helpful advice.

[/ QUOTE ]

Nice link...ty

Alot of different ways to skin a cat.

[kokiri]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Since I am the only one that likes to take an aggressive route...how far into the hand do you just CALL down?

[/ QUOTE ]
My normal line with an A on the flop is c/c, c/f. With two aces on the board, I probably call a smallish turn bet and fold to a larger bet on the river. If villain bet more on the flop, I would probably c/f the turn.

BTW, everyone here has advocated an aggressive route: value betting the river. Your c/r route is more aggressive, but it is also more spew.

[/ QUOTE ]

value bet the river because villain's line doesn't look much like an A, KK is probably worth calling bets on 2 streets and a non Ace hand is unlikely to bet the river but might call a medium bet.

C/R the flop is horrible with KK (and it's _really_ horrible) because it turns the hand into a bluff - it's a fine move with a crap hand that has no showdown value, but with KK we're ahead of a lot of hands that bet in position here and we can get more value from them. C/R wins exactly one bet vs worse hands and loses more and possibly much more to good hands.

We expect to be bluffed off by a worse hand less often than normal because it's a fairly scary flop to bet a lot on vs. a reraising hand.

[Shaddux]

[ QUOTE ]
All,
thnx for the extensive replies so far. I like the idea of v-betting the river. Hands like KK,QQ,JJ,TT are likely holdings for villain and will pay off a bet. Maybe even lower pp's. I'm a nit by nature so I guess I'll have to build in that aggression. If we bet half pot, we have about ~15 left after that 15 bet. If villain goes all-in we..?

[/ QUOTE ]
I don't think this will ever happen, but if it does, he is telling us we are beat--I don't care what pot odds are, I'm not putting in a cent if he shoves the river. (this is assuming he is a typical microstakes player btw)