Two donkish plays KTo and 64s (50 6m)

[HitNRunPoster]

In the KTo hand, no reads.

In the 64s hand, the BB was a tag and the SB was a really loose (70 vpip) fish.

Party Poker
No Limit Holdem Ring game
Blinds: $0.25/$0.50
6 players
Converter (http://www.neildewhurst.com/hand-converter)

Stack sizes:
UTG: $141.03
UTG+1: $48
hero: $49.25
Button: $27.62
SB: $61.80
BB: $65.35

Pre-flop: (6 players) hero is CO with T/images/graemlins/diamond.gif K/images/graemlins/club.gif
2 folds, <font color="#cc0000">hero raises to $2</font>, Button folds, SB calls, BB folds.

Flop: 4/images/graemlins/heart.gif 5/images/graemlins/heart.gif 4/images/graemlins/spade.gif ($4.5, 2 players)
SB checks, <font color="#cc0000">hero bets $3</font>, <font color="#cc0000">SB raises to $9</font>, <font color="#cc0000">hero raises to $18</font>, SB calls.

Turn: 3/images/graemlins/club.gif ($40.5, 2 players)
SB checks, hero checks.

River: A/images/graemlins/spade.gif ($40.5, 2 players)
<font color="#cc0000">SB bets $5</font>, <font color="#cc0000">hero raises all-in $29.25</font>

Party Poker
No Limit Holdem Ring game
Blinds: $0.25/$0.50
6 players
Converter (http://www.neildewhurst.com/hand-converter)

Stack sizes:
UTG: $150.38
UTG+1: $33.13
hero: $71
Button: $12.49
SB: $54.40
BB: $52.25

Pre-flop: (6 players) hero is CO with 6/images/graemlins/club.gif 4/images/graemlins/club.gif
UTG folds, UTG+1 calls, hero calls, 2 folds, 2 folds, BB checks.

Flop: A/images/graemlins/diamond.gif 5/images/graemlins/heart.gif 2/images/graemlins/club.gif ($1.75, 3 players)
BB checks, UTG+1 checks, <font color="#cc0000">hero bets $0.5</font>, BB folds, UTG+1 calls.

Turn: 9/images/graemlins/spade.gif ($2.75, 2 players)
UTG+1 checks, hero checks.

River: 6/images/graemlins/heart.gif ($2.75, 2 players)
UTG+1 checks, hero checks.

Results:
Final pot: $2.75

[HitNRunPoster]

my comments:

KTo I don't know how often this play works (i.e. how often he folds the flop with an overpair). I don't know what I would do with AA there, also. On the river, after I take a FC, I'm rep'ing Ax trump. On the flop it needs to work 47.62% of the time. On the river it needs to work 39.13% of the time.

In the 64s hand, I don't know, I figured the BB was free money and if I could make him fold that would give me a free card and some cash in increased equity for my pair outs. I don't know if this is fair or not.

[AJGibson]

Dave what are you playing at? both these hands are shocking, explain yourself.

H1 with no reads I just fold pf. Definitly fold to SB raise on the flop. I feel you got a bad case of FPS.

H2, fold pf as well.

[HitNRunPoster]

[ QUOTE ]
Dave what are you playing at? both these hands are shocking, explain yourself.

H1 with no reads I just fold pf. Definitly fold to SB raise on the flop. I feel you got a bad case of FPS.

H2, fold pf as well.

[/ QUOTE ]

How would you play TT as villain in hand #1, preflop to river? How about a hand like AQs hearts?

Hand 2 was played for implied odds. The table was passive other than that tag in the BB.

[AJGibson]

Hand 1[ QUOTE ]
On the flop it needs to work 47.62% of the time

[/ QUOTE ]
SB just c/r's you, there's no way this works nearly half the time. The river moves holds a chance of being profitable, but you still you put your self it a dodgy situation without having any reads on the villian. Plays like this are going to be expensive in the long run IMO.

H2, Isn't so bad, still fancy betting a bit more on the flop, at least 1, as it stands significantly more chance of working.
[ QUOTE ]
How would you play TT as villain in hand #1, preflop to river? How about a hand like AQs hearts?

[/ QUOTE ]
Well I'd play them both very agressively pf and the flop an hopefully scare you off you're trashy KTo before you got clever.

[ActionStan]

The SB has something, I'd guess at least a 4, but maybe 45 or 55. You're minraise gave him the odds to call if he just had a straight draw semi-bluff, which he would have made on the turn. I'm not clear what the last push was all about. Neither hand has changed meaningfully from the flop action except that maybe his got better. On the river he has trips or a FH and is value betting and you're paying him off most times.

[HitNRunPoster]

[ QUOTE ]

Well I'd play them both very agressively pf and the flop an hopefully scare you off you're trashy KTo before you got clever.

[/ QUOTE ]

Do you mean reraising PF? (edit: because this would end the hand right there when I have KTo)

Ok, supposing you call PF, what do you do on the flop? Bet/3-bet? Checkraise/Push?

[HitNRunPoster]

What's your vpip/pfr like? I'm running somewhere between 21-18 vpip and 10-15 pfr.

[HitNRunPoster]

fwiw, I think that this flop play KTo definitely has cost me money over the long term so far (~30-40k hands)

[ActionStan]

[ QUOTE ]
Dave what are you playing at? both these hands are shocking, explain yourself.

H1 with no reads I just fold pf. Definitly fold to SB raise on the flop. I feel you got a bad case of FPS.

H2, fold pf as well.

[/ QUOTE ]

If you are going to play a hand like 64s, please, for the love of Pete, use it to steal from an earlyish position. Treat it as a steal. Remember it's a steal. Release it if you meet resistance. Sometimes, if the flop hits you right in the face, you can get paid off on a big, sneaky hand. I'm not wild about committing money to a hopeless hand when I'm not heads up. But, once in a while a 3/4 or pot size bet will be worth a stab there since you're already in the hand.

[AJGibson]

[ QUOTE ]
Do you mean reraising PF? (edit: because this would end the hand right there when I have KTo)

[/ QUOTE ]
Yes I'd like to end hands as early as possible when I'm OOP.

[ QUOTE ]
Ok, supposing you call PF, what do you do on the flop? Bet/3-bet? Checkraise/Push?


[/ QUOTE ]
I go for bet/3-bet mostly, I don't c/r raise unless I have a very good reason to do so. (I'm a fan of dbitel's rule of check-raising (http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/showflat.php?Number=5354245))

[ QUOTE ]
What's your vpip/pfr like? I'm running somewhere between 21-18 vpip and 10-15 pfr.

[/ QUOTE ] I start at a table ubertight and I try to switch gears to LAG, hyperagressive depending on how the table's playing.

[ QUOTE ]
If you are going to play a hand like 64s, please, for the love of Pete, use it to steal from an earlyish position.

[/ QUOTE ]
I hope you meant to say late position.

[ActionStan]

No, I mean early position. But, it's a straight steal. No more no less. I'm not committed to the hand. The hand has very little value beyond the steal. It's a steal.

I like to mix up my steals early and late. I'm not talking about every hand, but once in a while. Sort of like Harrington's tactic of raising suited connectors UTG once in a while to randomize his play. Using a suited 2-gapper is along the same lines. In late position, I like the hand to have a little value because you don't have to steal through many people. A high card, etc. If you meet resistance there it is, on average, a weaker hand because everyone expects the CO and button to steal.

[AJGibson]

Blind stealing isn't as important in a cash game as it is in a tournament as the blinds are so small relative to stack sizes. Moves like going for a steal from early position with trash hands can easily cost you a lot in the long run. The risk:reward ration is not good and you could easily have to play the rest of the hand OOP (Never underestimate the value of position). While at a low limit cash game it's much more profitable playing very tight in early position and generally go for a more straight forward line.

[ QUOTE ]
In late position, I like the hand to have a little value because you don't have to steal through many people. A high card, etc.

[/ QUOTE ]

This seems the wrong way around, from late position you can steal more because there are less people to go through, and less chance someone will wake up with a hand. Therefore your hand can have less value, it's also likely you'll have a better position for the rest of the hand should someone call.

Also a single high card hand has very little value, it's strategically hard to play post flop and there's good chance of being dominated, you'd be better of with lower suited, connecting or near connecting cards than a single high card IMO

[ActionStan]

First let me say that, in general, I agree with all your comments regarding position and stealing and that my comments are about where I think playing a hand like 64s has some merrit. Position is of tantamount importance. Absolutely, I steal much more in tournaments then low limit cash games. If I have built a sizable stack in a cash game, I will steal occasionally. It's more of a "remember who's running this table" steal as opposed to a tournament "you need every chip you can get" steal. I know that I am giving up position, which is why I don't want a hand that is going to get me into trouble if I steal there. Anything less than 2 pair or a good straight draw and I can release the hand with no regret. I'm not going to hit middle pair and wonder what I should do. If I get 1 or 2 callers, I can continuation bet on a favorable board and that's the only bet I need to worry about. Little pot, little bets, decisions are easy. Flush draws are a little troubling, but it wouldn't be a strong flush draw, so it is also fairly easy to release if things look grim.

[ QUOTE ]
Also a single high card hand has very little value, it's strategically hard to play post flop and there's good chance of being dominated, you'd be better of with lower suited, connecting or near connecting cards than a single high card IMO


[/ QUOTE ]


I also agree that a high card has very little value and I would prefer to have 78s or 89s, but it does have some value when combined with good position late. I should have included those in my previous post. I was really trying to indicate that you might find yourself playing a hand from the button differently than from early position and that you are more willing to continue if you catch a piece of the flop. For example, I would consider raising with K7s on the button as a steal. The hand isn't good. But if the flop comes K62, I can see putting some money into the hand. Not a lot, but some. Here, your position really helps.

[tomonbass]

H1 is fine pf IMO but you need to let that hand go on the flop after the c/r....

H2 is also fine pf with two checks to me on the flop Im betting here with any two, you need to be making more of a psb though as you ideally want to take the pot here.. so A bet of around $1.50 is better in this spot...

If your opponent still calls after a decent bet then checks again on the turn... I would probably fire again here since I have some outs to hit if I am behind at this point also if yoour opponents on a weak hand say mp you could force them to fold.. again you want to be making a bet of more than half the pot any less looks weak, and hope to win the pot there....

I just check behind on that river if checked to as 1. your 6's may now be good and 2. you will get some good information about your opponent... ie did he call you down with middle pair etc....

If you choose to play these types of hands you must be prepared to pick up dead money in good spots and be prepared to fire 2 or even 3 bullets on occasion to try and pick up these types of pots even when you dont hit the flop hard/at all.

If your not prepared to do that stick to a more TAG style of play..