QQ vs a check minraise (50 6m)

[HitNRunPoster]

Both villains appear loose after 20 hands. The cold caller has been raising a little and the checkraiser recently called me down to the river and folded vs a push on KJxxx rainbow flop.

Party Poker
No Limit Holdem Ring game
Blinds: $0.25/$0.50
6 players
Converter (http://www.neildewhurst.com/hand-converter)

Stack sizes:
hero: $76.64
UTG+1: $45.10
CO: $59.91
Button: $53.05
SB: $48.30
BB: $61.34

Pre-flop: (6 players) hero is UTG with Q/images/graemlins/club.gif Q/images/graemlins/spade.gif
<font color="#cc0000">hero raises to $2</font>, UTG+1 calls, 3 folds, BB calls.

Flop: 8/images/graemlins/diamond.gif 5/images/graemlins/heart.gif 2/images/graemlins/club.gif ($6.25, 3 players)
BB checks, <font color="#cc0000">hero bets $4</font>, UTG+1 calls, <font color="#cc0000">BB raises to $8</font>, hero folds

[HitNRunPoster]

comments:

This hand kinda makes me sick to my stomach. I'm a hell of long ways from showdown in terms of my stack size. If my stack was maybe $16 left I'd just shove. The caller could be slowplaying, I really have no way of telling where I stand, but two players seem to like their hands enough here, though JJ on 87 (whatever the oesd is) is a possibility for sure.

Anyways... tough spot. Comments are welcome. /images/graemlins/smile.gif

[AJGibson]

If you're not comfortable playing this deep with people, go to another table.

[homeslice]

This is tough spot. I'm assuming UTG+1 has at least OESD, and BB min-raise smells like a set. I call here and revaluate on the turn.

[HitNRunPoster]

[ QUOTE ]
If you're not comfortable playing this deep with people, go to another table.

[/ QUOTE ]

Well I'm only playing for 100bb here given their stacks. But I'd be most comfortable playing this hand for like 60bb or so, maybe a little less. If you're suggesting I buy in short... I don't think it's worth it to my long term development as a player, or even to the trade-off that I'd face when I flop monsters and only get paid 60bb, etc. etc.

I think I should just get comfortable playing QQ vs a check minraise.

What do you think?

[HitNRunPoster]

[ QUOTE ]
This is tough spot. I'm assuming UTG+1 has at least OESD, and BB min-raise smells like a set. I call here and revaluate on the turn.

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm sorry, what are you doing on the turn? /images/graemlins/smile.gif

[homeslice]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
This is tough spot. I'm assuming UTG+1 has at least OESD, and BB min-raise smells like a set. I call here and revaluate on the turn.

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm sorry, what are you doing on the turn? /images/graemlins/smile.gif

[/ QUOTE ]

Hit a Queen! /images/graemlins/laugh.gif

[ActionStan]

I would really have a hard time folding here. I think you could see the same play from a draw and a top pair sort of hand.

You have a really strong overpair. I would be inclined to stick in a healthy re-raise and find out where you really stand. UTG+1 hasn't helped matters by bloating the pot, but I would stick in the $20 that you might be able to get throught the turn with right now and define the hand. If he doesn't push, it will probably also slow him down on the turn and let you check behind there as well.

[HitNRunPoster]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
This is tough spot. I'm assuming UTG+1 has at least OESD, and BB min-raise smells like a set. I call here and revaluate on the turn.

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm sorry, what are you doing on the turn? /images/graemlins/smile.gif

[/ QUOTE ]

Hit a Queen! /images/graemlins/laugh.gif

[/ QUOTE ]

Well duh, but supposing party is riggored and the queen miraculously misses the turn, then what? /images/graemlins/cool.gif

[HitNRunPoster]

[ QUOTE ]
I would really have a hard time folding here. I think you could see the same play from a draw and a top pair sort of hand.

You have a really strong overpair. I would be inclined to stick in a healthy re-raise and find out where you really stand. UTG+1 hasn't helped matters by bloating the pot, but I would stick in the $20 that you might be able to get throught the turn with right now and define the hand. If he doesn't push, it will probably also slow him down on the turn and let you check behind there as well.

[/ QUOTE ]

I think raising to $20 PC's me. Do you agree?

[banana182]

This is an instacall in my mind. I might check on the turn to see what BB does, but I have no clue why you would fold QQ on that flop. Is there a potential for a straight? Yeah, probably but they would need some help from the t/r. Not sure what confuses you about this.

[ActionStan]

I think this is one of those ahead/behind kind of hands. If the villian tells me I'm behind (a push) I'm going to believe him and fold. You still have $50 behind and are likely drawing to 2 outs. I'm not spending that much more on top pair. You stuck in some money to show that you aren't to be trifled with. If he claims to have a bigger hand believe him and move on.

My point really is that calling here and then trying to get through the turn is going to cost the same or more in the times that he has TPTK or a draw. Crack him in the head with some chips and find out where you stand in a way that doesn't leave you guessing on a later street.

[eternal_]

LOL. Raise to 25 dollars or call and try to get more value by shoving on turn. No way BB has set or a pair better than queens.

[munkey]

Our position sucks here (UTG) sandwiched.

I'm more worried about UTG+1's smooth call.

I call the minraise and lead the turn 2/3 folding to a raise
from either villan if BB checks. If BB bets I might call. - but UTG+1 could still re-raise behind us.

Alternatively I might raise the flop to PSR~20ish.

I'm not sure of the best line but I'm not folding -yet.

[HitNRunPoster]

[ QUOTE ]
I think this is one of those ahead/behind kind of hands.

[/ QUOTE ]

I like to take WA/WB lines vs donkbets in position on non-drawwish boards heads-up when there's a decent chance (better than 45%) that I'm WA, and when there's a good chance that villain will fold if given more aggression.

Now... I don't know if that's a correct way to think about WA/WB, so if someone wants to comment on that, please do so!

[HitNRunPoster]

[ QUOTE ]
I think this is one of those ahead/behind kind of hands. If the villian tells me I'm behind (a push) I'm going to believe him and fold.

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm a little worried about building a big pot and then folding to a push when it's possible that one villain has 87 for the oesd...

Is this a realistic concern?

[ActionStan]

Do you mean 67? If I raise and UTG+1 and villian pushes there is almost no way you are ahead, easy decision. If UTG+1 calls and villian pushes, again, your in a bad spot and are likely behind, easy decision. If UTG+1 folds and villain pushes, there is a chance that he's semi-bluffing with a draw. But look at it from his point of view. He's facing a bet and a 3-bet. It looks like you want to play. He'd have to bluff off his whole stack and really believe you were going to fold. That is a bold bluff. More than likely, he has a real hand and you should cut your losses. If he is really that wild, lurk around and trap him. He will pay you off.

[HitNRunPoster]

There hasn't really been consensus other than that you guys think the hand is too good to fold, so I'm bumping it.

Homeslice says call and see a turn. So does banana.
Actionstan says raise, fold to a push, and check the turn if called.
Eternal says raise and push turn.
AJG says move tables... <font color="white"> But he was dropped on his head at birt</font>h.
Munkey says basically raise the flop because being sandwiched sucks and it's a tough spot to call the turn with UTG+1 still to act.

---

Do any of you guys have a plan on the turn for if we're called on the flop?

I think the line that's looking best here is to define our hand and raise, but I'm a little concerned that it may turn out hand into a bluff, because worse hands can no longer call. However, vs these guys, they just might call. /images/graemlins/smile.gif

--Dave.

[AZplaya]

lol PP NL$50 I can't believe you folded here. Make a pot sized raise and get your monies in the middle.

[Grifter]

[ QUOTE ]
LOL. Raise to 25 dollars or call and try to get more value by shoving on turn. No way BB has set or a pair better than queens.

[/ QUOTE ]

Playing overpairs like they are the nuts on three-rag boards against multiple opponents showing strength? Probably a good recipie to go broke. There is 'no way' BB has 88, 55, or 22 here? O RLY? Isn't this exactly how one might play a set on this board, especially given the smoothcall? I don't think I can fold here yet, but I don't really want to push either. I think I am for raising to 22 and folding to a push.

[jeffraider]

I'd probably make it about $25 here and fold to a push, but I don't think you're totally burning money by folding here. I don't think you're pot committed at $20-25 either, btw, not even close.

[Jay Riall]

[ QUOTE ]
LOL. Raise to 25 dollars or call and try to get more value by shoving on turn. No way BB has set or a pair better than queens.

[/ QUOTE ]

Lmao potd. No-one ever hits a set in NL.

[pokerchap]

make it 25 or fold.