No Currency in the Future

[Speedlimits]

I just overheard someone talking about anarchism and how the United States is not a true democracy. This person mentioned how ideally we would have no currency, no government and everyone would be part of a community. I think eventually we will do away with money and materialistic worth in favor of "trades" and requisite items such as a house, car, etc. Capitalism is the monster that is creating the gap between rich and poor. We have the elitists and the beggers, but our government says we are all equal? This is obviously not the case when money is power, and those without it are at it's mercy (horrible jobs/long hours/militairy).

[Borodog]

So you think we should go back to the Stone Age?

[Speedlimits]

[ QUOTE ]
So you think we should go back to the Stone Age?

[/ QUOTE ]

LoL. First off it could never be like the Stone Age because the population of humans is much to vast now. Secondly, we would still have technology, computers, scientists etc. It's just that there would be FREE schooling and FREE education. Therefore people would learn to better themselves and not for money because currency would be eliminated.

The stone age analogy is horrible.

The crime rate would be much less because the majority of people commit crimes for a few select reasons. The most overwhelming reason is money, robbery and even homicide is the root of a surpressed people. The people not happy with their lives usually have dead end jobs and lame pay. Now how is giving everyone a house,car, bare essentials and free schooling like the Stone age?

[Borodog]

I could explain this to you, but I doubt it would help.

Without money you're basically stuck in the stone age. Maybe the upper paleolithic, but the paleolithic none the less.

[Speedlimits]

[ QUOTE ]
I could explain this to you, but I doubt it would help.

Without money you're basically stuck in the stone age. Maybe the upper paleolithic, but the paleolithic none the less.

[/ QUOTE ]

Money is a man made creation, the human race would still advance without this creation. It is a middle man that will eventually no longer be needed.

[Borodog]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I could explain this to you, but I doubt it would help.

Without money you're basically stuck in the stone age. Maybe the upper paleolithic, but the paleolithic none the less.

[/ QUOTE ]

Money is a man made creation,

[/ QUOTE ]

True.

[ QUOTE ]
the human race would still advance without this creation.

[/ QUOTE ]

False. Without money you are constrained by double coincidences of wants, i.e. barter. Without money, there are no prices. Without money and prices there can be no cost accounting. Without money, prices, and cost accounting, there can be no profits and losses. Without profits and losses, there is no way to tell when scarce resources are wasted. If you can't tell if you're wasting resources, you will waster them. Massively. Little will be produced, which means there will be little to be consumed, which means that people will starve en masse.

It's been tried. 1917-1921, Soviet Union, Lenin, War Communism. It wasn't pretty.

[ QUOTE ]
It is a middle man that will eventually no longer be needed.

[/ QUOTE ]

Nope. It's the lubricant of society, without which it grinds to a shuddering halt.

[Speedlimits]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I could explain this to you, but I doubt it would help.

Without money you're basically stuck in the stone age. Maybe the upper paleolithic, but the paleolithic none the less.

[/ QUOTE ]

Money is a man made creation,

[/ QUOTE ]

True.

[ QUOTE ]
the human race would still advance without this creation.

[/ QUOTE ]

False. Without money you are constrained by double coincidences of wants, i.e. barter. Without money, there are no prices. Without money and prices there can be no cost accounting. Without money, prices, and cost accounting, there can be no profits and losses. Without profits and losses, there is no way to tell when scarce resources are wasted. If you can't tell if you're wasting resources, you will waster them. Massively. Little will be produced, which means there will be little to be consumed, which means that people will starve en masse.

It's been tried. 1917-1921, Soviet Union, Lenin, War Communism. It wasn't pretty.

[ QUOTE ]
It is a middle man that will eventually no longer be needed.

[/ QUOTE ]

Nope. It's the lubricant of society, without which it grinds to a shuddering halt.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yeah your premise is that we need society. Society griding to a halt isn't bad. Communism that has failed doesn't inherently make communism bad as you proclaim. Democracy has failed too.

You're whole argument is based on resource or lack of resources according to you. Since you somehow think we cannot keep track of the resources if there is no money. This conclusion is false.

[Nielsio]

[ QUOTE ]
we would have no currency, no government

[/ QUOTE ]


This is not possible. If there is no government and I trade my chickens with salt, and I trade the salt with beans, you have money.

The Origin and Nature of Money
http://www.mises.org/multimedia/mp3/misescircle-ny06/Block.mp3

[govman6767]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
So you think we should go back to the Stone Age?

[/ QUOTE ]

LoL. First off it could never be like the Stone Age because the population of humans is much to vast now. Secondly, we would still have technology, computers, scientists etc. It's just that there would be FREE schooling and FREE education. Therefore people would learn to better themselves and not for money because currency would be eliminated.

The stone age analogy is horrible.

The crime rate would be much less because the majority of people commit crimes for a few select reasons. The most overwhelming reason is money, robbery and even homicide is the root of a surpressed people. The people not happy with their lives usually have dead end jobs and lame pay. Now how is giving everyone a house,car, bare essentials and free schooling like the Stone age?

[/ QUOTE ]

I think your sample size is two small.
There is at least 2 continents on this planet where THE MAJORITY of people would have been better off in the stone age.
So I think the stone age comment was pretty good.

The society we have become NEEDS money.
During the Depression when no one had any dough should be proof of what would happen if our money became too devalued.
At least some form of currency is needed to keep the world turning.

Unless you get some goofy star trek invention that creates food etc etc

[Speedlimits]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
we would have no currency, no government

[/ QUOTE ]


This is not possible. If there is no government and I trade my chickens with salt, and I trade the salt with beans, you have money.

The Origin and Nature of Money
http://www.mises.org/multimedia/mp3/misescircle-ny06/Block.mp3

[/ QUOTE ]


Ok that's semantics.

As far the depression comment, it would be nothing like the depression because that was democracy. THere would be no democracy. No coporations that control what you do and how you do it. You realize the irony is that people would be MORE empowered with communism as opposed to democracy?

No currency would also lead to less war, because most war is fought over money/power. Without these motives it is less probable to happen.

Also the majority of people are doubting this could work because it has never worked, but how many people have tried it? Getting rid of currency is the next step in evolution.

[vhawk01]

Borodog,

You realize that this is the guy people think of when they hear 'anarchist' right? This is why your plight is such a difficult one.

[Speedlimits]

[ QUOTE ]
Borodog,

You realize that this is the guy people think of when they hear 'anarchist' right? This is why your plight is such a difficult one.

[/ QUOTE ]

Way to add nothing to the debate.

[Nielsio]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
we would have no currency, no government

[/ QUOTE ]


This is not possible. If there is no government and I trade my chickens with salt, and I trade the salt with beans, you have money.

The Origin and Nature of Money
http://www.mises.org/multimedia/mp3/misescircle-ny06/Block.mp3

[/ QUOTE ]


Ok that's semantics.

[/ QUOTE ]


Given that you agree, you may retract all of your ramblings.

[vhawk01]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Borodog,

You realize that this is the guy people think of when they hear 'anarchist' right? This is why your plight is such a difficult one.

[/ QUOTE ]

Way to add nothing to the debate.

[/ QUOTE ]

Weird, I thought I addressed it to Borodog. And its not a debate, its people being polite to you. Carry on though.

[FortunaMaximus]

[ QUOTE ]
Nope. It's the lubricant of society, without which it grinds to a shuddering halt.

[/ QUOTE ]

Then he goes on to say this.

[ QUOTE ]
Yeah your premise is that we need society. Society griding to a halt isn't bad.

[/ QUOTE ]

The Sand Age perhaps instead of Stone, since we have a bit of silicon in use?

[Borodog]

[ QUOTE ]
Borodog,

You realize that this is the guy people think of when they hear 'anarchist' right? This is why your plight is such a difficult one.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yeah, I know. I'm really going to try to cut back on trying to explain things to people who cannot understand what I'm saying.

[ojc02]

Currency is necessary for the division of labor. Without the division of labor we really would be in the Stone age. However, I would prefer to be a subsistence farmer with no money than be part of some socialist or communist "system".

I highly recommend you start by reading about the division of labor. There is also this great essay by Alan Greenspan about why our currency should be gold and not taxation backed dollars.
http://www.usagold.com/gildedopinion/Greenspan.html

[Shadowrun]

[ QUOTE ]
I just overheard someone talking about anarchism and how the United States is not a true democracy. This person mentioned how ideally we would have no currency, no government and everyone would be part of a community. I think eventually we will do away with money and materialistic worth in favor of "trades" and requisite items such as a house, car, etc. Capitalism is the monster that is creating the gap between rich and poor. We have the elitists and the beggers, but our government says we are all equal? This is obviously not the case when money is power, and those without it are at it's mercy (horrible jobs/long hours/militairy).

[/ QUOTE ]

Are you serious i would be happy to take all your money and i will give you a brand new chair in return, deal?

any fool knows we need money...
its durable, scarce, trustworthy (i.e. very hard to make fake money), easy to carry and keep track of.

Without money/currency we might be stuck in a world where more people had your viewpoint on this subject.

[vhawk01]

[ QUOTE ]
However, I would prefer to be a subsistence farmer with no money than be part of some socialist or communist "system".



[/ QUOTE ]

Where you'd probably be dead by now and certainly 2/3 of your children would be. People greatly overestimate the greatness of the "good old days."

[Borodog]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
However, I would prefer to be a subsistence farmer with no money than be part of some socialist or communist "system".



[/ QUOTE ]

Where you'd probably be dead by now and certainly 2/3 of your children would be. People greatly overestimate the greatness of the "good old days."

[/ QUOTE ]

If you were part of a communist system it is almost guaranteed that you would be a subsistence farmer. If you hadn't already starved to death or been sent to the gulag.

[Nielsio]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
However, I would prefer to be a subsistence farmer with no money than be part of some socialist or communist "system".



[/ QUOTE ]

Where you'd probably be dead by now and certainly 2/3 of your children would be. People greatly overestimate the greatness of the "good old days."

[/ QUOTE ]

If you were part of a communist system it is almost guaranteed that you would be a subsistence farmer. If you hadn't already starved to death or been sent to the gulag.

[/ QUOTE ]


They have other jobs too

http://www.chaoxian.com.cn/bbs/attachments/307314_ove4Pji61QXB.jpg

[Speedlimits]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
However, I would prefer to be a subsistence farmer with no money than be part of some socialist or communist "system".



[/ QUOTE ]

Where you'd probably be dead by now and certainly 2/3 of your children would be. People greatly overestimate the greatness of the "good old days."

[/ QUOTE ]

If you were part of a communist system it is almost guaranteed that you would be a subsistence farmer. If you hadn't already starved to death or been sent to the gulag.

[/ QUOTE ]

I just read Alan Greenspans essay on currency and it seems that without placing a value on things, we would inevitably not progress.

But I stand by my statement in my other post that humans do not have free will.

[Borodog]

[ QUOTE ]
I just read Alan Greenspans essay on currency and it seems that without placing a value on things, we would inevitably not progress.

[/ QUOTE ]

You believe Alan Greenspan and not me? I'm hurt.

[Darryl_P]

Even if you have no official currency you will always have goods, some of which make better substitutes for money than others. You could make a list starting from gold coins, then maybe postage stamps, then a little further down you could have unit sized candies, bags of flour, all the way down to water faucets.

Where would you draw the line? In other words, which ones are OK to use as substitutes for money and which ones aren't?

[ojc02]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
However, I would prefer to be a subsistence farmer with no money than be part of some socialist or communist "system".



[/ QUOTE ]



Where you'd probably be dead by now and certainly 2/3 of your children would be. People greatly overestimate the greatness of the "good old days."

[/ QUOTE ]

Yeah, what I was trying to say is that despite the fact that being a subsistence farmer would probably be unpleasant, I would find it infinitely preferable to living in anything but a capitalist situation. Our current mixed economy is highly frustrating but not so terrible (yet - it's rapidly getting there). If only there were more politicians like Ron Paul.

[ojc02]

[ QUOTE ]
Even if you have no official currency you will always have goods, some of which make better substitutes for money than others. You could make a list starting from gold coins, then maybe postage stamps, then a little further down you could have unit sized candies, bags of flour, all the way down to water faucets.

Where would you draw the line? In other words, which ones are OK to use as substitutes for money and which ones aren't?

[/ QUOTE ]

If there were no official currency you'd be free to trade anything for anything else. More than likely, one or two items would become more common in trades - as gold and silver were back in the day. The reasons that gold and silver naturally become currency is because they are perfect currencies for all the reason that Greenspan listed:
1. Luxury good, very desirable
2. Homogeneous
3. Divisible

As one or two items become more common in trade there would be a strong rational desire for others to use the same item until eventually you would have one medium of exchange.

All of this can (and was originally) accomplished without government intervention and (I hope) could be again.

[vhawk01]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I just read Alan Greenspans essay on currency and it seems that without placing a value on things, we would inevitably not progress.

[/ QUOTE ]

You believe Alan Greenspan and not me? I'm hurt.

[/ QUOTE ]

Boro,

I believe you and THEN Alan Greenspan.

[vhawk01]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
However, I would prefer to be a subsistence farmer with no money than be part of some socialist or communist "system".



[/ QUOTE ]



Where you'd probably be dead by now and certainly 2/3 of your children would be. People greatly overestimate the greatness of the "good old days."

[/ QUOTE ]

Yeah, what I was trying to say is that despite the fact that being a subsistence farmer would probably be unpleasant, I would find it infinitely preferable to living in anything but a capitalist situation. Our current mixed economy is highly frustrating but not so terrible (yet - it's rapidly getting there). If only there were more politicians like Ron Paul.

[/ QUOTE ]

And I guess I was trying to make the point that no, you wouldn't. Luckily most communist countries suck, but I'm pretty sure you, like most people, would rather live a long happy life in a communist country than a short, horrible brutish one in a capitalist country. This is way off the topic though, sorry.

[ojc02]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
However, I would prefer to be a subsistence farmer with no money than be part of some socialist or communist "system".



[/ QUOTE ]



Where you'd probably be dead by now and certainly 2/3 of your children would be. People greatly overestimate the greatness of the "good old days."

[/ QUOTE ]

Yeah, what I was trying to say is that despite the fact that being a subsistence farmer would probably be unpleasant, I would find it infinitely preferable to living in anything but a capitalist situation. Our current mixed economy is highly frustrating but not so terrible (yet - it's rapidly getting there). If only there were more politicians like Ron Paul.

[/ QUOTE ]

And I guess I was trying to make the point that no, you wouldn't. Luckily most communist countries suck, but I'm pretty sure you, like most people, would rather live a long happy life in a communist country than a short, horrible brutish one in a capitalist country. This is way off the topic though, sorry.

[/ QUOTE ]

My Preferences:
1. Laissez Faire Capitalism
2. Mixed economy - mostly capitalist (what we have now)
3. Subsistence farming in a place with either no other ppl or a place with no division of labor but my rights to life, liberty, property are still protected.
4. Communist State.

[CORed]

[ QUOTE ]
I could explain this to you, but I doubt it would help.

Without money you're basically stuck in the stone age. Maybe the upper paleolithic, but the paleolithic none the less.

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't know, I think bronze age might be achieavable without money. It doesn't take a lot of infrastructure to make bronze.

[FortunaMaximus]

Beads gets you Manhattan and breasts.

The point is, you still need a liquid medium with no inherent value, but pegged value.

[vhawk01]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
However, I would prefer to be a subsistence farmer with no money than be part of some socialist or communist "system".



[/ QUOTE ]



Where you'd probably be dead by now and certainly 2/3 of your children would be. People greatly overestimate the greatness of the "good old days."

[/ QUOTE ]

Yeah, what I was trying to say is that despite the fact that being a subsistence farmer would probably be unpleasant, I would find it infinitely preferable to living in anything but a capitalist situation. Our current mixed economy is highly frustrating but not so terrible (yet - it's rapidly getting there). If only there were more politicians like Ron Paul.

[/ QUOTE ]

And I guess I was trying to make the point that no, you wouldn't. Luckily most communist countries suck, but I'm pretty sure you, like most people, would rather live a long happy life in a communist country than a short, horrible brutish one in a capitalist country. This is way off the topic though, sorry.

[/ QUOTE ]

My Preferences:
1. Laissez Faire Capitalism
2. Mixed economy - mostly capitalist (what we have now)
3. Subsistence farming in a place with either no other ppl or a place with no division of labor but my rights to life, liberty, property are still protected.
4. Communist State.

[/ QUOTE ]

Your preferences:
Food
Water
Shelter
Sex
Physical safety and security
Acceptance
Status
Laissez-faire capitalism
Mixed economy
etc.

[Borodog]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I could explain this to you, but I doubt it would help.

Without money you're basically stuck in the stone age. Maybe the upper paleolithic, but the paleolithic none the less.

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't know, I think bronze age might be achieavable without money. It doesn't take a lot of infrastructure to make bronze.

[/ QUOTE ]

You're probably correct; but by the time you make the Bronze Age, money is unstoppable.

[Borodog]

[ QUOTE ]
Your preferences:
Food
Water
Shelter
Sex
Physical safety and security
Acceptance
Status
Laissez-faire capitalism
Mixed economy
etc.


[/ QUOTE ]

I will [censored] outside in the rain.

[FortunaMaximus]

Food before Water?

Y'all are weird.

[Borodog]

[ QUOTE ]
Food before Water?

Y'all are weird.

[/ QUOTE ]

Good point.

By the way, I would [censored] outside if it were raining hot dogs, too.

[hmkpoker]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I could explain this to you, but I doubt it would help.

Without money you're basically stuck in the stone age. Maybe the upper paleolithic, but the paleolithic none the less.

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't know, I think bronze age might be achieavable without money. It doesn't take a lot of infrastructure to make bronze.

[/ QUOTE ]

You're probably correct; but by the time you make the Bronze Age, money is unstoppable.

[/ QUOTE ]

All you need is a belief in property and money is unstoppable. Take bunch of people who recognize property rights. Boom, people start bartering for obvious reasons. Anyone who wants a certain item, however, must be able to provide what the seller wants. If he has something of good market value, but the seller doesn't want it, he has two options:

1) trade for another good that the seller wants, which takes time and effort and may require several stops.

2) offer a greater amount of his good in order to make a favorable trade, and incur direct transaction costs.

Either way, transaction costs in direct barter are very high, and they are very high for everybody. Transaction costs can only be reduced through the recognition of a good of bartering worth; something that just makes trade easier.

Some goods are simply better than others, and tend to compete in the market for the lowest transaction cost possible. A good that is scarcer than another contains more worth in a given amount, and therefore minimizes transaction costs. Goods that are hard to counterfeit are better than ones that are easy to counterfeit because they reduce the chances of inflation. Goods that are less perishable are better than goods that are more perishable because they reduce the chance of being destroyed.

It's no wonder that gold (which easily beats any other commodity in these criteria) naturally because the universally recognized trade commodity. A free market does not need a gold standard at all; gold money is simply the natural result of barter.

[Borodog]

[ QUOTE ]
All you need is a belief in property and money is unstoppable.

[/ QUOTE ]

How's that preaching to the choir coming?

Have you taught that bear to [censored] in the woods yet?

[hmkpoker]

[ QUOTE ]

Have you taught that bear to [censored] in the woods yet?

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm having some difficulties, and am currently lobbying for more funding.

[vhawk01]

[ QUOTE ]
Food before Water?

Y'all are weird.

[/ QUOTE ]

Well, you'd probably live longer with food but no water than you would with water but no food, if only because there is a reasonable amount of water in a lot of foods (fruits, meat, etc). Yeah, I'm ruining the funny by being a nit.

[Magic_Man]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Food before Water?

Y'all are weird.

[/ QUOTE ]

Well, you'd probably live longer with food but no water than you would with water but no food, if only because there is a reasonable amount of water in a lot of foods (fruits, meat, etc). Yeah, I'm ruining the funny by being a nit.

[/ QUOTE ]

Actually, you're probably right. See this Straight Dope article, Can Man Live on Bread Alone? (http://www.straightdope.com/classics/a1_209.html) If anything it describes the gruesome death you'd have, after about 6 months.

~MagicMan

[FortunaMaximus]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Food before Water?

Y'all are weird.

[/ QUOTE ]

Well, you'd probably live longer with food but no water than you would with water but no food, if only because there is a reasonable amount of water in a lot of foods (fruits, meat, etc). Yeah, I'm ruining the funny by being a nit.

[/ QUOTE ]

Naw. The question pertained to survivability. 'course you need both. /images/graemlins/tongue.gif

Water, food, sex, shelter. What, we rutted before we built houses. Hmph.