A Second Unforgiveable Sin?

[David Sklansky]

I think I read somewhere that most Christians believe that God can at times, forgive all sins except one. Something about the Trinity. But it seems to me that logically there almost has to be a second one. A sin that I know for a fact Christians sometimes commit.

I speak of committing the double sin of acting sinfully ALONG WITH having the thoughts that it will all be OK in the end. In other words, borrowing from poker parlance, using the "rules" as an ANGLE. Put another way I'm speaking of committing a sin, not because they are weak and can't help themselves, but rather because they plan to eventually, and maybe even sincerely, ask for forgiveness. Both for the sin and the planning behind it.

Said differently, it seems that God should not forgive sins that wouldn't have been committed had people not counted on his later mercy. Otherwise we run into a situation where belief can actually increase, rather than decrease, sins. And like the Trinity sin, no amount of sincere remorse on ones's deathbed should matter. To me, this is so obvious that I'm surprised God hadn't already thought of it.

[Speedlimits]

Any subject with God as the premise should not be taken seriously.

[IronUnkind]

[ QUOTE ]
I think I read somewhere that most Christians believe that God can at times, forgive all sins except one. Something about the Trinity.

[/ QUOTE ]

LOL. Not quite.

[ QUOTE ]

I speak of committing the double sin of acting sinfully ALONG WITH having the thoughts that it will all be OK in the end. In other words, borrowing from poker parlance, using the "rules" as an ANGLE. Put another way I'm speaking of committing a sin, not because they are weak and can't help themselves, but rather because they plan to eventually, and maybe even sincerely, ask for forgiveness. Both for the sin and the planning behind it.

[/ QUOTE ]

In Rom. 6, Paul speaks specifically to this topic, saying:

"What shall we say, then? Shall we go on sinning so that grace may increase? By no means! We died to sin; how can we live in it any longer?"

[BluffTHIS!]

The "unforgiveable sin" is actually one having to do with the Holy Spirit, and attributing His works to the Devil. The one you speak of is in fact forgiveable, providing one repents of it along with the original sin, and is known as the sin of presumption.

[David Sklansky]

"In Rom. 6, Paul speaks specifically to this topic, saying:

"What shall we say, then? Shall we go on sinning so that grace may increase? By no means! We died to sin; how can we live in it any longer?" "

But this transgression, unless I'm mistaken, is simply yet anoter sin.

[IronUnkind]

[ QUOTE ]
But this transgression, unless I'm mistaken, is simply yet anoter sin.

[/ QUOTE ]

I'd say that's a fair inference.

There is only one murky passage which refers to an unforgiveable sin -- "blaspheming the Holy Spirit." It is not entirely clear what this means, but it is only tangentially related to the trinity (a word which does not appear in scripture).

It may be that angle shooting is proof that one is not genuinely saved. It seems to me that nothing would logically preclude the angle shooter from subsequently repenting and receiving God's grace.

[Siegmund]

There are, in fact, THREE unforgiveable ones.... Cruciatus, Imperius, and Avada Kedavra, right?

Sorry. Couldn't resist.

[She]

[ QUOTE ]
There is only one murky passage which refers to an unforgiveable sin -- "blaspheming the Holy Spirit." It is not entirely clear what this means....

[/ QUOTE ]

""Therefore I say to you, every sin and blasphemy will be forgiven men, but the blasphemy against the Spirit will not be forgiven men. 32 Anyone who speaks a word against the Son of Man, it will be forgiven him; but whoever speaks against the Holy Spirit, it will not be forgiven him, either in this age or in the age to come."
- Matthew 12:31-32

Also...

"It is impossible for those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, who have shared in the Holy Spirit, who have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the coming age, if they fall away, to be brought back to repentance, because to their loss they are crucifying the Son of God all over again and subjecting him to public disgrace."
- Hebrews 6:4-6

I don't particularly understand this passage of scripture... I believe it is often used both in support and rebuttle of the eternal security doctrine. Perhaps this IS blaspheming the Holy Spirit?? Rejecting the gift of Christ after being brought to a "saving knowlege" (as some like to say) of him??

Feel free to interperate.

[txag007]

He's forgiven all of your future sins, too.

[revots33]

[ QUOTE ]
Said differently, it seems that God should not forgive sins that wouldn't have been committed had people not counted on his later mercy. Otherwise we run into a situation where belief can actually increase, rather than decrease, sins.

[/ QUOTE ]

But of course. It's nice having a permanent get out of jail free card. Which is why those who are most outwardly boastful of their morality and Christian faith (right-wing politicians for ex.), often have the most skeletons in the closet. That free pass is what draws them to Christianity in the first place. They need it in order to keep living the way they like to.

[FortunaMaximus]

[ QUOTE ]
It may be that angle shooting is proof that one is not genuinely saved. It seems to me that nothing would logically preclude the angle shooter from subsequently repenting and receiving God's grace.

[/ QUOTE ]

Perhaps the individual in question doesn't need his grace, but has looked upon him and is contemptous of some of his methods. Angle-shooting is permissible if you can find moral justifications. God may get his laughing revenge by angle-shooting you into a working role as an angel.

Maybe. He's well capable of spite, even if his reasons are just, according to him.

[txag007]

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That free pass is what draws them to Christianity in the first place. They need it in order to keep living the way they like to.


[/ QUOTE ]
Salvation doesn't come without repentance.

[FortunaMaximus]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
That free pass is what draws them to Christianity in the first place. They need it in order to keep living the way they like to.


[/ QUOTE ]
Salvation doesn't come without repentance.

[/ QUOTE ]

Of course, but I tend to think that such repentance does have room to occur post-corporeally, as it were. That you have both time and the ability to present your case. And there would be provision to prove your worthiness even if your story has ended on one level. Although that makes for dangerous territory because if this is generally assumed, people would feel free to do anything without regard to immortal consequences.

[She]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
That free pass is what draws them to Christianity in the first place. They need it in order to keep living the way they like to.


[/ QUOTE ]
Salvation doesn't come without repentance.

[/ QUOTE ]

Definitions of repentance:

"Repentance is the feeling and act in which one recognizes and tries to right a wrong, or gain forgiveness from someone that they wronged. In religious contexts it usually refers to repenting for a sin against God. It always includes an admission of guilt, and also includes at least one of: a solemn promise or resolve not to repeat the offense; an attempt to make restitution for the wrong, or in some way to reverse the harmful effects of the wrong where possible." Wikipedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Repentance)

"Repentance is often wrongly viewed merely as remorse, conviction, sorrow for doing wrong, etc. However, the Bible views repentance primarily as a radical change of mind, change of attitude, and change of decisions. That results in a change of one's actions and a new direction adopted." Calvary Chapel (http://www.calvarysbd.com/)

"In theology, a change of mental and spiritual habit respecting sin, involving a hatred of and sorrow because of it, and a genuine abandonment of it in conduct of life." Encyclopedic Theosophical Glossary (http://www.theosociety.org/pasadena/etgloss/red-roos.htm)

"Is to feel remorse, contrition, or self-reproach for what one has done or failed to do, to be contrite, to regret past conduct and to change one’s mind regarding it, to change for the better as a result. Repent means to 'turn around' or 'return.'" Miriams Well (http://miriams-well.org/Glossary/)

[revots33]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
That free pass is what draws them to Christianity in the first place. They need it in order to keep living the way they like to.


[/ QUOTE ]
Salvation doesn't come without repentance.

[/ QUOTE ]

Right, I'm not questioning the sincerity of the repentance later on. (Well maybe I am, a little.) But the availability of repentance is the mechanism for allowing a person to keep falling prey to their moral weaknesses over and over again.

Imagine if a person could only be forgiven for something ONCE. If they commit the same sin again, they go to hell. There'd be a lot less sinning I'm guessing.

[KUJustin]

[ QUOTE ]
Imagine if a person could only be forgiven for something ONCE. If they commit the same sin again, they go to hell. There'd be a lot less sinning I'm guessing.

[/ QUOTE ]

Except that none of us would manage to pass this test and once a person has failed then he no longer has any further penalty for sinning (other than the earthly consequences which seem, traditionally, to be ignored in these discussions).

[FortunaMaximus]

[ QUOTE ]
Imagine if a person could only be forgiven for something ONCE. If they commit the same sin again, they go to hell. There'd be a lot less sinning I'm guessing.

[/ QUOTE ]

'fraid not. Human nature prevents this. Bang your head against a wall, feels so good when you stop. The metaphor's applicable to a few situations. You know it's wrong, there's consequences, but damn if you don't do it anyway, because it feels good.

[Darryl_P]

[ QUOTE ]
Said differently, it seems that God should not forgive sins that wouldn't have been committed had people not counted on his later mercy. Otherwise we run into a situation where belief can actually increase, rather than decrease, sins. And like the Trinity sin, no amount of sincere remorse on ones's deathbed should matter. To me, this is so obvious that I'm surprised God hadn't already thought of it.

[/ QUOTE ]

Agreed, but it's not God who hasn't thought of it, but a certain subset of believers.

God, by defintion, has thought of all of your most brilliant revelations (and your father's as well), long before the human race, and the earth for that matter, existed.

[revots33]

[ QUOTE ]
'fraid not. Human nature prevents this. Bang your head against a wall, feels so good when you stop. The metaphor's applicable to a few situations. You know it's wrong, there's consequences, but damn if you don't do it anyway, because it feels good.

[/ QUOTE ]

I agree, but the threat of eternity in hell would at least stop some people from doing bad things - at least if it took more than an "I'm sorry" to bail them out.

To me it is like a child living with a parent who spoils them vs. a strict parent. It's not like the spoiled kid wants to be bad, or doesn't feel bad about it when he does bad things... it's just harder to resist the temptation when your parents are pushovers who demand no more than an apology.

[mindflayer]

I was taught in catholic school that there was only one unforgiveable sin.
The movie Constantine (with Keanu Reeves) is based on this sin.

[ QUOTE ]
Born with a gift he didn't want, the ability to recognize the half-breed angels and demons that walk the earth in human camouflage, Constantine (Keanu Reeves) was driven to take his own life to escape the tormenting clarity of his vision.

[/ QUOTE ]

Simply put, if you commit suicide you have murdered yourself,
(a mortal sin) and cannot ask for forgiveness.

[Darryl_P]

[ QUOTE ]
I agree, but the threat of eternity in hell would at least stop some people from doing bad things - at least if it took more than an "I'm sorry" to bail them out.

To me it is like a child living with a parent who spoils them vs. a strict parent. It's not like the spoiled kid wants to be bad, or doesn't feel bad about it when he does bad things... it's just harder to resist the temptation when your parents are pushovers who demand no more than an apology.


[/ QUOTE ]

nh

[Exsubmariner]

David,
You have an unhealthy obsession with this religious crap. Why don't you just accept it as rubbish and move along like everyone else?

[She]

[ QUOTE ]
I agree, but the threat of eternity in hell would at least stop some people from doing bad things - at least if it took more than an "I'm sorry" to bail them out.

[/ QUOTE ]

I totally agree with you. Did you happen to read the definitions of repentance I posted? Repentence IS more than saying your sorry... or in the words of a not so common song "It takes more than your saline eyes to make things right." ... Even from the story in the Bible where the woman was caught in adultery, Jesus didn't say: "Oh well, as long as you say you're sorry it'll be ok." He in essence said I won't condem you, but "get the hell out of here and don't do it any more!" (Ok, ok... I put my own twist on that.) /images/graemlins/wink.gif

[surftheiop]

Didnt read replies,

The sinner would simply ask to be forgiven, for sinning with the plan of asking for forgivness.
Its kinda like nth level thinking in poker, in a way this would be a "2nd level" sin, meaning you really commited two sins. God can forgive to the infinite level so no matter how long you draw out the sin/forgive chain its not going to hit a point where he wont forgive if you ask.

Biblical support for my stance,
"I tell you the truth, all the sins and blasphemies of men will be forgiven them"

"For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son,[f] that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.

[revots33]

Maybe sometimes god just says
"There's No Way I'm Saving That Guy" (http://www.theonion.com/content/node/49844) /images/graemlins/cool.gif

[valenzuela]

I didnt read the whole thread but anyway here it goes:

1) Im going to rape that girl and then tell God Im sorry
2) Yupi!!!!!!
3) God Im really sorry I raped that girl and Im very sorry that I planned to ask for forgiveness before doing my act that was very,very wrong.

You may then reply that an unforgiveable sin can be planning a sin and then planning to ask for forgiveness for both the sin and for the act of planning to ask for forgiveness beforehand, the circular logic we arrive at is obvious.( God Im really sorry I raped that girl and Im very sorry that I planned to ask for forgiveness before doing my act, and Im really, really sorry that I planned to ask for... that was very,very wrong.)

[dknightx]

even satan and his friends know and believe in Jesus ... they aren't being saved ... think about that for a minute ... when you are done realize that christianity (and salvation) isn't as easy as everyone wants you to believe

[RED FACE]

I didn't read all the other replies but...

re - unforgivable sin:
I've heard it said/explained-away that the unforgivable sin(blaspheming the Holy Spirit) has to do with conviction, specifically at the moment of potential conversion. Ultimately, the Holy Spirit convicts one of truth. If one then disbelieves he is calling the Holy Spirit a liar/blaspheming him, and is not/wont be saved. There are many questions and perhaps objections that can spring from this view.