NL50 - snap off this c-bet?

[gumpzilla]

Villain has just been at the table for a couple of hands.

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, $0.50 BB (3 handed) Hand History Converter Tool (http://poker-tools.flopturnriver.com/Hand-Converter.php) from FlopTurnRiver.com (http://www.flopturnriver.com) (Format: 2+2 Forums)

SB ($13.20)
BB ($45.85)
Hero ($77.15)

Preflop: Hero is Button with 9/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, 9/images/graemlins/club.gif.
<font color="#CC3333">Hero raises to $2</font>, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, <font color="#CC3333">BB raises to $8</font>, Hero calls $6.

Flop: ($16.25) 2/images/graemlins/club.gif, A/images/graemlins/spade.gif, 3/images/graemlins/diamond.gif <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">BB bets $12</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises to $38</font>

[kyleparks]

He either has KK or AK? Pretty ballsy. i like.

[orange]

I think I miniraise here.

I do not really remember the hand ranges much for RR-es PF in 25nl. But if they are fairly solid, like AK/AQ, TT+, then we are generally beat. But...

given that villan has no read on us, he may interpret us as typical donkeys. Miniraising this flop is a cheap way to win the pot with the worse hand (I think). He will generally fold TT-KK (most times) and only call with AQ/AK.

I could be wrong, as this was just alternative play I was thinking of. Any thoughts?

[jonyy6788]

I hate this move. The first thing I needed to learn about NL50 is to not get cute. He's already committed half of his stack OOP when an A hit the flop. I don't see somebody betting $12 OOP with TT-KK, but maybe I'm wrong.

Like orange said, if you're gonna raise thinking he doesn't have an ace, just min raise and then if he pushes you can save yourself $13

[ajmargarine]

I can find alot better spots to get cute if I wanna for alot less bb's. You probably have to fold to his reraise preflop.

[gumpzilla]

[ QUOTE ]
I hate this move. The first thing I needed to learn about NL50 is to not get cute. He's already committed half of his stack OOP when an A hit the flop. I don't see somebody betting $12 OOP with TT-KK, but maybe I'm wrong.

[/ QUOTE ]

So you're not c-betting this flop very often after 3-betting PF? I anticipate that most people are following up the PF action with a c-bet, and that their PF reraising ranges (especially 3 handed against a button raise) are going to be wide enough that this is going to be a non-A pretty often.

[Yaboosh]

What about when people get stubborn with their KK/QQ?

I don't know if you fold out KK/QQ here often enough.

[carnivalhobo]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I hate this move. The first thing I needed to learn about NL50 is to not get cute. He's already committed half of his stack OOP when an A hit the flop. I don't see somebody betting $12 OOP with TT-KK, but maybe I'm wrong.

[/ QUOTE ]

So you're not c-betting this flop very often after 3-betting PF? I anticipate that most people are following up the PF action with a c-bet, and that their PF reraising ranges (especially 3 handed against a button raise) are going to be wide enough that this is going to be a non-A pretty often.

[/ QUOTE ]

its been a while, but most unknowns were 3betting things like JJ+ maybe AK from what i remember.

[Raisor]

arent these ranges a little tight for a 3handed game?

[Art Vandalay]

If you're going to call the reraise there, its going to be for set value, unless you have a read on the guy saying he's a reraising machine, which obviously you don't. He's probably either got a big pair or AK, maybe even AQ. If he's got the A he's definitely going to at least call your raise, and he still might if he's got KK or QQ. Some people can't let go of big pocket pairs, and knowing nothing about this guy, i'm not going to gamble $38 that he can.

[jonyy6788]

Oh man, now that I look again.......fold PF

[gumpzilla]

[ QUOTE ]
arent these ranges a little tight for a 3handed game?

[/ QUOTE ]

That's what I think too. I've been finding a fair number of PF reraisers who slow down on the flop hard and fold to pressure, and I've been taking that to mean that the 3-betting ranges are a little wider than I might have guessed.

While it isn't entirely relevant, I'm wondering what people here are 3-betting in that spot. Particularly three handed.

[kaz2107]

[ QUOTE ]
I think I miniraise here.

[/ QUOTE ]

i love this line /images/graemlins/smile.gif he is gonna fold the same amount of crap here to a minraise as he is gonna fold to ur bigger raise imo. not exactly a standard play but i have used this line a couple times and have had decent success with it. it seems pretty donkey like but will work better in this instance.

[gimmetheloot]

I think if you are going to raise, and want to try a different line, make it like 28, a tiny amnt more than a minraise. That always catches my attention, and I dont know what to make of it.

OP: This is good though, but I would prefer it with a read of some sort.

[Leviathan101]

I remember posing an idea in the poker theory forum, that you could call bluff reraises preflop with pocket pairs to bluff an ace like this. After some discussion the conclusion that I came to was this. It could be +ev, but three things probably need to take place first.

1) You know they are capable of folding big pocket pairs to a flopped ace.
2) You know their range is tight enough for them to have a pocket pair far more likely than AJ-AK.
3) Both of you are deep enough that reverse implied odds kick in for them, and they don't want to call 3 bets to see if they are good.

Unfortunately for you, I don't think any of these 3 apply to you, which makes this a fold, since he also killed your set odds.

[Sir Winalot]

I really like folding to his c-bet here.