Are MMOs illegal now?

[pdxhero]

As most everyone probably knows, there is a genre of online gaming variously called "massively multiplayer online" (MMO) or sometimes "massively multiplayer online role playing games" (MMORPGs). These are the "virtual world" games, including Everquest, the Sims, Second Life, Runescape, etc.

All MMOs have a notion of virtual money. And as a practical matter, their virtual money can in all cases be exchanged for real money. Some of the game franchise owners really try to prevent real-money transfers (RMTs) of game items; others don't try very hard and some, recently, don't even have rules against it. In the case of games that have rules against it, the RMTs are supported by a gray market operated by companies like IGE.

All MMOs contain random events. These may be explicit, as when plays establish gambling operations using game objects, or implicit, as when valuable in-game items become available.

This leads to a host of interesting questions with respect to both taxes and UIGEA.

Why do we care? Because there are millions people in the US playing MMOs. Any involvement or even potential involvement of MMOs with UIGEA would cause a lot of young people to become instantly interested in politics, completely changing the political dynamic about UIGEA.

[Berge20]

Which MMOs explicitly allow the sale of in-game items/money for RL cash?

[MiltonFriedman]

Good angle ..... Raise the issue in the appropriate games forums.

($15 per month x 6 million subscribers, the reported revenue for just one game sponsor, is not small change.)

[ianlippert]

[ QUOTE ]
Which MMOs explicitly allow the sale of in-game items/money for RL cash?

[/ QUOTE ]

I think second life allows you to exchange fake money for real money. The problem is that the MMO you would want to target is WOW, and its against blizzards terms to sell items for real money. So blizzard wouldnt be safe from legal action.

[SlightlyMad]

First of all, only 1.75 million (North America/Europe) of the now 7 million subscribers to WoW pay the flat $15/month. Most of the Chinese/Korean subscribers pay about $0.09/hour that they play ... lots of inactive accounts. Even if you assume that the other 5.25 million accounts are played 10 hours/month, World of Warcraft is less of a compelling cash cow than you might think.

Second, World of Warcraft actively discourages IGE and their ilk (banned a whole series of players a couple of weeks ago for gold selling amongst other things). Originally, people were running roulette wheels with /random in Ogrimmar/Ironforge (the two largest cities in the WoW universe) for in-game cash, and that was shut down within a couple of months of the game starting up.

Second Life is an example of a game that allows in-game purchase of virtual assets. Microsoft's XBox Live allows you to buy points for US$, but these can not be gambled via Texas Hold'Em Poker (it's just the equivalent of a .NET site.) Both World of Warcraft and Everquest have paid account transfer schemes, but that's less about in-game asset purchase.

None of the games mentioned encourage gambling as part of their core, and saying that random item drops are gambling is specious.

[crzylgs]

It's my understanding that you have to be risking "something of value" on a game "subject to chance" for it to be considered gambling. MMOs probably fail the risk test, unless you count the subscription fee. They are certainly games "subject to chance".

[pandemonium]

Don't know if they're illegal, but they're certainly being assessed for their taxability.

ars technical article (http://arstechnica.com/news.ars/post/20060106-5923.html)
legal affairs article (http://www.legalaffairs.org/issues/January-February-2006/feature_dibbell_janfeb06.msp)
lawmeme (yale) article on second life tax revolt (http://research.yale.edu/lawmeme/modules.php?name=News&file=article&sid=1222)
brunei times article (http://www.bruneitimes.com.bn/details.php?shape_ID=7802)

[Texibus]

Ultima Online is one I know that facilitaties account transfers. I don't know about any in game money or what not.

All games now including everquest and WOW are very strict on banning accounts that sale items for money or sale of the account it's self. PLus the games own all that property under the intellucual property rights. I was involved with WOW and was planning on selling my account, and got intangled in all the mess end up not selling due to it.

[jap613]

Well I dont know about MMOs but if there are any Magic The Gathering players they will know right away what I am talking about..

Magic The gathering the card game released an online version a few years ago. You buy virtual cards with "tickets" and each ticket is a dollar in real life.

You buy tickets from the companys website and then you use them to enter tournaments where the winner is awarded virtual packs which can be sold for tickets.

These tickets can be sold on EBAY for real money, very easily. In fact users buy tickets using money from Party Poker and Pokerstars and UB.

Its weird, it will go untouched I'm sure, along with MMOs
Thats just my opinion, what do I know

[TheFreeze]

Everquest 2 has servers designated where you can buy and sell stuff for real money: http://eq2.stationexchange.com/index.vm

I remember reading about Entropia where people were buying virtual real estate for crazy sums of money: http://news.com.com/Real+cash+for+virtual+goods/2100-1043_3-5566704.html?tag=st.num

And then there's the casino MMO: http://www.phantomefx.com/

In WoW you can play poker for play money. This money is totally separate from the in game money/gold so it's just there for fun.

And in Sims online, there are casinos.

[shamus]

I wasn't familiar with MMO's until this week when I heard a story on NPR's Marketplace reporting that Reuters now has employed a full-time bureau chief to report on the economy of Second Life. Here's the Marketplace story (http://marketplace.publicradio.org/shows/2006/10/16/PM200610163.html). And here's the site on Reuters (http://marketplace.publicradio.org/shows/2006/10/16/PM200610163.html) devoted to reporting Second Life's economy. Crazy stuff . . . .

My first thought, of course, was to get in there and build a casino . . . maybe call it Lucky Leach's or the Golden Goodlatte or something. /images/graemlins/smirk.gif

[Vex]

[ QUOTE ]

My first thought, of course, was to get in there and build a casino . . . maybe call it Lucky Leach's or the Golden Goodlatte or something. /images/graemlins/smirk.gif

[/ QUOTE ]

Inside Second Life you can hardle swing a stick without hitting a slot machine, blackjack table, or simple random lottery game.

I've seen some Holdem tables in there, but nobody was ever playing them.

This brings up an interesting point, however. What would be the implications if a fully functional online poker game were to be built there, using Linden Dollars as chips?

The Linden Dollar is backed by virtual real-estate, the supply of which is carefully controlled by Linden Labs. It works in part as a fiat currency, just like real money. The "government" is Linden Labs, and they tax your property if you own more than a certain amount, and the tax must be paid in Linden Dollars. Linden Labs also grants all paying customers (think of 'em as enfranchised citizens) a weekly stipend in Linden Dollars.

You can also play for free -- if you do that, you can hold currency but not own property, and you get no stipend. Someone with talent could go into the game, and sell his own intellectual property for Linden Dollars, with no investment of real currency required.

There is an exchange of Linden Dollars to real-world currencies. Some people do in fact make some mad bank off Second Life, just by designing things like virtual clothes or custom avatar animations, selling them for Linden Dollars, and selling the Linden Dollars for real money.

I personally doubt the thriving online poker thing could be done in Second Life right now, in practicality. In-game development tools don't offer much in the way of UI functionality -- just play a couple hands at a virtual blackjack table there and you'll see what I mean.

[Thebes]

Dunno what its worth, or have details on it, but I spoke with someone recently at the Portable Media Expo who was trying to build a functioning Second Life poker room.

[Uglyowl]

Second Life is a "pyramaid scheme" (http://valleywag.com/tech/second-life/virtual-worlds-supposed-economy-is-a-pyramid-scheme-230813.php)

Here is an interesting article about Second Life which is run out of San Francisco.

90% of the industry is sex and casinos. My understanding (never played), is that USD (U.S. Dollars) are exchanged for “Linden Dollars”. These Linden dollars can be used to gamble, buy land, etc. Later these dollars can be exchanged back to real USD.

There are million of subscribers to this game and am wondering if the DOJ would be interested in going after these guys. This company is based in the U.S. and for all intents and purposed in running a gambling ring.

Thoughts?

[1p0kerboy]

[ QUOTE ]
Thoughts?

[/ QUOTE ]

Isn't etrade also a mechanism for gambling?

I think the only viable option here is to shut the internet down.

Thoughts?

[Uglyowl]

[ QUOTE ]
Isn't etrade also a mechanism for gambling?

[/ QUOTE ]

This is interesting. Some people may use it gamble or satisfy the need for action, but in reality they are just buying and selling pieces of companies.

I think the poker/stock market comparison is very very limited

[grizy]

[ QUOTE ]
First of all, only 1.75 million (North America/Europe) of the now 7 million subscribers to WoW pay the flat $15/month. Most of the Chinese/Korean subscribers pay about $0.09/hour that they play ... lots of inactive accounts. Even if you assume that the other 5.25 million accounts are played 10 hours/month, World of Warcraft is less of a compelling cash cow than you might think.



[/ QUOTE ]

while i agree with your point... the idea that the average wow player logs less than 10 hours a month is laughable. 10 hours per week is about as casual as they come.

i am a recovering addict.

[Uglyowl]

I am still coming back to:

Credit Card----->US Dollars--->Linden Dollars---->Second Life slot Machine----->Linden Dollar------>US Dollars------>Credit Card/Bank Account

Is this accurate, I have never played, but this is my understanding based on my reading of what Second Life is.

[soneill34]

[ QUOTE ]

In WoW you can play poker for play money. This money is totally separate from the in game money/gold so it's just there for fun.


[/ QUOTE ]

Where?

[xprimex]

"Raise the issue in the appropriate games forums"

do you know of any good games forums? also why do you think tournaments have not caught on in the MMORPG or for that matter video games?

[crzylgs]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Thoughts?

[/ QUOTE ]

Isn't etrade also a mechanism for gambling?

I think the only viable option here is to shut the internet down.

Thoughts?

[/ QUOTE ]

This is why the UIGEA explicitly exempts securities-trading firms.

(PS I think I'm being leveled here but thought I'd mention the above just in case.)

[Jooka]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

In WoW you can play poker for play money. This money is totally separate from the in game money/gold so it's just there for fun.


[/ QUOTE ]

Where?

[/ QUOTE ]


no where in WoW, not sure wtf he's talking bout.

[Sniper]

[ QUOTE ]
Second Life is a "pyramaid scheme" (http://valleywag.com/tech/second-life/virtual-worlds-supposed-economy-is-a-pyramid-scheme-230813.php)

Here is an interesting article about Second Life which is run out of San Francisco.

90% of the industry is sex and casinos. My understanding (never played), is that USD (U.S. Dollars) are exchanged for “Linden Dollars”. These Linden dollars can be used to gamble, buy land, etc. Later these dollars can be exchanged back to real USD.

There are million of subscribers to this game and am wondering if the DOJ would be interested in going after these guys. This company is based in the U.S. and for all intents and purposed in running a gambling ring.

Thoughts?

[/ QUOTE ]

Owl... they have some fancy graphs and charts over there showing the economic stats, etc... you might find them interesting... after you look at them, take a look at the user fees and land use & purchase fees... you will quickly realize where the money goes /images/graemlins/wink.gif

[MasterLJ]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

In WoW you can play poker for play money. This money is totally separate from the in game money/gold so it's just there for fun.


[/ QUOTE ]

Where?

[/ QUOTE ]


no where in WoW, not sure wtf he's talking bout.

[/ QUOTE ]

There are most certainly mods to play poker in WoW.

[Jooka]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

In WoW you can play poker for play money. This money is totally separate from the in game money/gold so it's just there for fun.


[/ QUOTE ]

Where?

[/ QUOTE ]


no where in WoW, not sure wtf he's talking bout.

[/ QUOTE ]

There are most certainly mods to play poker in WoW.

[/ QUOTE ]


that have nothing to do with Blizzard and arent part of the game in any sort of way.

[MasterLJ]

While you are correct Jooka, Rockstar games were held accountable for the "watch you *F* a hooker," mod for GTA: San Andreas.

Plus, all of the mods I know that did poker, did not force the exchanging of money. I wiped our raid a few times after a bad beat.

*MasterLJ You are the Bomb*

/raid JIHAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAD

[satya]

Do you mean Evercrack? That game has been more destructive to my life than poker could ever be.

I can buy everquest platinum (in game currency) for USD from IGE, gamble with it in the player run casinos on some everquest servers - Stromm used to have way too many of these. If I win in the casino I can sell the platinum I win back to IGE for a profit. Or, more likely I sell the platinum I take from the other players.

Quick, somebody call Frist.

[jlkrusty]

[ QUOTE ]
Well I dont know about MMOs but if there are any Magic The Gathering players they will know right away what I am talking about..

Magic The gathering the card game released an online version a few years ago. You buy virtual cards with "tickets" and each ticket is a dollar in real life.

You buy tickets from the companys website and then you use them to enter tournaments where the winner is awarded virtual packs which can be sold for tickets.

These tickets can be sold on EBAY for real money, very easily. In fact users buy tickets using money from Party Poker and Pokerstars and UB.

Its weird, it will go untouched I'm sure, along with MMOs
Thats just my opinion, what do I know

[/ QUOTE ]

Good post. I have definately thought about this one. Consider the similarities:

1- You have to buy "tickets" with actual cash in order to enter into an online Magic tournament.
2- If you do well in the tournament, you win more "tickets."
3- You can then sell your won "tickets" for actual cash!

How is that different than an online poker tournament? Both are games of skill, but also greatly influenced by luck. I just don't see the difference.

Real life Magic tournaments are similar. You pay cash to enter the tournament. Then, if you do well enough, you can win product and cash. Yet, it's all allowed.

Even the simple act of buying a baseball pack or Magic pack is a form of "small" gambling. You buy the pack with hopes of getting a rare valuable card. If you're lucky, your gamble will pay off.

The problem is that traditionally held beliefs define poker as gambling, but have not these other activities. These beliefs do not hold up to rational scrutiny, but heck, who needs rational thought when you have stereotypes to fall back on.

Here's the argument we should be making: things like Magic the Gathering are not considered gambling because they have a significant degree of skill involved in them. Poker is the same. It's true that Poker has a degree of chance, but so does Magic and a host of other activities (video games, online role playing, the stock market, etc.). If Magic is not considered gambling, then Poker should not be either.

[cowboy.up]

Second Life Millionaire (http://www.gamespot.com/pc/rpg/secondlife/news.html?sid=6162315)

Here is an article detailing how a player of Second Life actually made herself a "self-made" millionaire. She could sell off all of her in game assets and be worth over $1,000,000 in the "real world."

[sooooooo]

Although I am not a lawyer, in my opinion Wizards of the Coast, and thus Hasbro, is facing enormous legal liability. Historically, they have been extremely ignorant in the legal realm with Magic Online. When they initially launched Magic Online, for at least a year they held tournaments where the prize structure was based upon the amount of entrants, despite the fact that this is clearly against US law as it mimics an online lottery. After I reported this to Magic Online(as well as my credit card company, who provided me with a full refund when I cited the laws Magic Online broke), they removed this prize structure within a month.

Currently, to the best of my knowledge, although I have not been on Magic Online for a long time, all tournaments have prize structures fixed before entry starts.

While they may or may not be currently breaking federal laws(this is up to legal debate), they are most certainly breaking numerous state laws by allowing users with credit cards in those states to win prizes online. They somehow believe having a waiver where the user must check that they understand their own state laws, will release them of all liability. This is akin to a poker site being run in the US saying: "Hey, we know your credit card is from the US, but its up to you to police yourself. We only officially do business with citizens outside the US" This would never happen, and that is why every poker site was based outside the US. They thought this would allow them to get away with the "the user should police themselves with regards to their laws." However, even that excuse is now failing.

Magic Online not only creates the concept of a 1$ ticket, but they actively endorse merchants on their website by setting up trading rooms where it is blatantly clear that tickets can be traded for cash. How on earth no one from Hasbro's legal team has discovered this yet is beyond me.

[Uglyowl]

http://img413.imageshack.us/img413/759/pyrofristxe8.png

[Valhalla1]

not only is there a "thriving" virtual economy in the Second Life MMO, but people have build casinos ! where u can spend and gamble real money playing casino games within second life, pretty much unregulated in a "wild west" sort of manner

[jlkrusty]

[ QUOTE ]
Although I am not a lawyer, in my opinion Wizards of the Coast, and thus Hasbro, is facing enormous legal liability. Historically, they have been extremely ignorant in the legal realm with Magic Online. When they initially launched Magic Online, for at least a year they held tournaments where the prize structure was based upon the amount of entrants, despite the fact that this is clearly against US law as it mimics an online lottery. After I reported this to Magic Online(as well as my credit card company, who provided me with a full refund when I cited the laws Magic Online broke), they removed this prize structure within a month.

Currently, to the best of my knowledge, although I have not been on Magic Online for a long time, all tournaments have prize structures fixed before entry starts.

While they may or may not be currently breaking federal laws(this is up to legal debate), they are most certainly breaking numerous state laws by allowing users with credit cards in those states to win prizes online. They somehow believe having a waiver where the user must check that they understand their own state laws, will release them of all liability. This is akin to a poker site being run in the US saying: "Hey, we know your credit card is from the US, but its up to you to police yourself. We only officially do business with citizens outside the US" This would never happen, and that is why every poker site was based outside the US. They thought this would allow them to get away with the "the user should police themselves with regards to their laws." However, even that excuse is now failing.

Magic Online not only creates the concept of a 1$ ticket, but they actively endorse merchants on their website by setting up trading rooms where it is blatantly clear that tickets can be traded for cash. How on earth no one from Hasbro's legal team has discovered this yet is beyond me.

[/ QUOTE ]

nh sir. I couldn't agree more. The hypocracy of banning online poker but allowing other activities like online Magic is beyond me.

Also, isn't Wizards of the Coast located in Washington? If yes, then isn't it in violation of Washington State's recent anti online gambling law?

Poker sites should be looking for examples like this to help justify why poker is no different than many other allowable activities. Heck, would it help if a poker site started using "tickets"?

[Zeldark]

[ QUOTE ]
Which MMOs explicitly allow the sale of in-game items/money for RL cash?

[/ QUOTE ]
I remember back in the day of playing the original Everquest. My friends and I would laugh at the fact that the dollar to platinum (everquest money) had a better exchange rate than most third world country currencies.

[Sniper]

[ QUOTE ]
Second Life Millionaire (http://www.gamespot.com/pc/rpg/secondlife/news.html?sid=6162315)

Here is an article detailing how a player of Second Life actually made herself a "self-made" millionaire. She could sell off all of her in game assets and be worth over $1,000,000 in the "real world."

[/ QUOTE ]

You should note, that value was created by a 25 person company /images/graemlins/wink.gif

... and is all virtual, until converted...

[CyberRyuapu]

I'm still trying to figure out why people feel the need to tell me how to spend my money. I also can't understand the concept of someone trying to protect me from myself. Geez, let me enjoy the short time I have to live on this earth.

[AncientPC]

[ QUOTE ]
I'm still trying to figure out why people feel the need to tell me how to spend my money. I also can't understand the concept of someone trying to protect me from myself. Geez, let me enjoy the short time I have to live on this earth.

[/ QUOTE ]

Just playing devil's advocate, but couldn't you make that same statement about those wanting to buy pleasure drugs? On a moral ground, anti-gambling groups probably feel that gambling addicts are hurting themselves and those around them.

It doesn't matter though, as the UIGEA is financially motiviated anyway.

[Wongboy]

[ QUOTE ]
Just playing devil's advocate, but couldn't you make that same statement about those wanting to buy pleasure drugs? On a moral ground, anti-gambling groups probably feel that gambling addicts are hurting themselves and those around them.

[/ QUOTE ]

Also playing Devil's advocate to your argument (does that make me a "Saint advocate"?).

Here is a short list of things that someone could do which would be very destructive to themselves and those around them. These things are all legal AFAIK.

Spending your entire paycheck on booze at the local bar.
Taking out payday loans at 391% annual interest to buy more booze.
Cheating on your spouse.
Ignoring your children and spouse and focusing 100% of your time and effort on your job.
Sitting in a room playing video games 24 hours a day.
Making zero effort at your job, leading to getting fired.
Buying $5,000 rims for your car when you make $7.50 an hour
Spending your entire paycheck on the Home Shopping Channel, then getting a Home Shopping Credit Card and getting into so much debt that you need to declare bankruptcy.

I personally know people who have done each of the things listed above. Should they all be in jail?

If we really want to protect people from financial ruin, we should require that everyone has their paycheck direct deposited into a government controlled escrow account. Automatic payments could go from that account to pay essential bills (rent/mortgage, car payments, utilities, etc). You would get a monthly allotment of food stamps and any other expenditures would need to be approved by a CFA that works for the government.

Since we want the government to protect us from ourselves, why don't we just go all the way with it?

[Quanah Parker]

I'd like to say I think it's petty to try to expose MMO's as breaking the laws.
While, we can use as many allies as possible, I don't want to ruin anyone else's fun, just because my government is so lame.
This line of thinking seems similiar to the stoner pointing out all the evils of alcohol, or the "he's doing it, why can't I?" arguement.

I don't think a person gets persuaded to see our side of things if we're the ones putting the spotlight on their little bit of fun. Kinda makes us the bad guys, you know. If they have too much fun, our big bad government will attack them all on it's own, and if that happens then we should welcome in any brothers-by-persecution into our fold.

[Sniper]

[ QUOTE ]
I'd like to say I think it's petty to try to expose MMO's as breaking the laws.
While, we can use as many allies as possible, I don't want to ruin anyone else's fun, just because my government is so lame.
This line of thinking seems similiar to the stoner pointing out all the evils of alcohol, or the "he's doing it, why can't I?" arguement.

I don't think a person gets persuaded to see our side of things if we're the ones putting the spotlight on their little bit of fun. Kinda makes us the bad guys, you know. If they have too much fun, our big bad government will attack them all on it's own, and if that happens then we should welcome in any brothers-by-persecution into our fold.

[/ QUOTE ]

If underage gambling is "standard" for an MMO... isn't this really the root of the problem...

[Sniper]

[ QUOTE ]
I personally know people who have done each of the things listed above. Should they all be in jail?

If we really want to protect people from financial ruin, we should require that everyone has their paycheck direct deposited into a government controlled escrow account. Automatic payments could go from that account to pay essential bills (rent/mortgage, car payments, utilities, etc). You would get a monthly allotment of food stamps and any other expenditures would need to be approved by a CFA that works for the government.

Since we want the government to protect us from ourselves, why don't we just go all the way with it?


[/ QUOTE ]

Hate to tell you, but you have a much farther way to go in your thinking to get to "all the way"...

You live in a gov't facility... eat communal gov't provided food... work at your assigned gov't job... no paycheck...

Maybe one of the politicos will remind us what form of gov't that is...

[stabn]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I'd like to say I think it's petty to try to expose MMO's as breaking the laws.
While, we can use as many allies as possible, I don't want to ruin anyone else's fun, just because my government is so lame.
This line of thinking seems similiar to the stoner pointing out all the evils of alcohol, or the "he's doing it, why can't I?" arguement.

I don't think a person gets persuaded to see our side of things if we're the ones putting the spotlight on their little bit of fun. Kinda makes us the bad guys, you know. If they have too much fun, our big bad government will attack them all on it's own, and if that happens then we should welcome in any brothers-by-persecution into our fold.

[/ QUOTE ]

If underage gambling is "standard" for an MMO...

[/ QUOTE ]

It isn't. It is standard for most mmo's to ban gambling.

[repulse]

Everything said about Magic Online so far has been accurate and insightful. I agree with all of it.

It is worth noting, however, that in no way does the company (WotC) operating it assign tangible value to the tickets or in any way facilitate their resale. As "virtual property" laws are, as far as I know, not well-defined anywhere quite yet, this might be enough to remove WotC from any sort of liability regarding gambling.

The way it goes down is like this... the most popular type of online Magic tournament takes both virtual packs and tickets to enter. The online tournaments pay out only virtual packs of cards as prizes.

WotC encourages in-game trading (an integrated part of the game for both swapping cards for cards and cards/packs for tickets), so a winning player can trade his prize packs to a player who needs them in exchange for tickets. The tickets cost $1 to buy directly from WotC but (I'm PRETTY sure I read this somewhere) have absolutely no legal cash value after they are purchased. The game economy creates the value of the tickets since everybody needs them to play the tournaments.

Wotc permits but does not encourage or facilitate external trading of in-game products such as eBaying tickets/cards or selling them for Stars cash. This is probably pretty crucial in terms of how they are allowed to legally operate. Their tournament operations consist only of awarding virtual products with no inherent value.

Another interesting aspect of this is that WotC does directly offer some degree of exchanging the virtual cards for objects of tangible value. If a player collects 1 of each card from any given in-print set, they have the option of having WotC remove the virutal cards from his or her account in exchange for getting shipped a factory-sealed real-life set of those same cards. I'm not sure if WotC places an inherent value on these physical cards, but of course the secondary market ensures that they have value. Also, this has nothing to do with the tickets.

I agree that the "opt-in prize eligibility" aspect has always seemed a bit fuzzy from a legal sense, but the factors of intangibility and lack of inherent value might be what's covering them here.

Could such an economy evolve for poker? Possibly, but of course, if it did, it would get a lot more attention and scrutiny than Magic Online has. The skill and luck aspects of both Magic Online and online poker are pretty similar, and I agree that it makes no rational sense for one to be legal and one not to be. In the world we live in today, there is probably no reconciling of this.

[sooooooo]

The fact that someone without a law degree(myself) was the first person to apparently realize that their sealed deck tournaments with prize structures based on the amount of entrants was illegal, makes me believe that almost everything else related to Magic Online has not been thoroughly analyzed by Hasbro lawyers.

Moreover, they purposely target individuals under the age of 18 in their marketing efforts. Where are all the loony grandmas that used to complain about the pentagrams on Magic cards!

-The L8 Gr8 RyanG

[jluker7]

MTGO took off their pentagrams for this reason Lawl..

yea i was thinking about mtgo the other day and how they are no different. i used to play that site and made profit winning tournaments then selling tickets on ebay for 93 cents. instead of 1 dollar value.

[Uglyowl]

FBI checks gambling in "Second Life" MSNBC (http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/17950149/)

FBI visited the online world, but it is unsure at this time if this violates UIGEA.

This has started to hit the wire today and I think it is probably good that there will be more pissed of people at our government.

[cowboy.up]

I saw that earlier and it certainly has some interesting implications. The three largest "poker rooms" said to be pulling over $1,500 a month each. That's real money too, in game you earn Linden dollars which can be converted into USD on the "Linden Exchange."