What if anything can we do to help WPEX gain market share?

[cartman]

Rake-free poker is a beautiful thing. Not only does it put a tremendous amount of extra money into our pockets, but it also allows the fish to keep more money in their pockets. Basically the the all winners win more, the big losers lose less (per unit of time), the breakeven guys win, and the small losers breakeven. When we hear the staggering revenue figures of one of the major poker sites, in my opinion we should salivate at the prospect of eventually splitting a figure like that up amongst ourselves. There are alot of poker players looking for a new home site right now due to the fallout from the recent legislation.

WPEX has given us a golden opportunity by offering rake-free poker. The problem is that most poker players, especially the fish, have never heard of it. I dont fault WPEX. After all, the advertising coffers aren't exactly overflowing because they charge no rake!

My question is...What if anything can we do to help WPEX gain market share? If we were somehow able to effectively convey the message , maybe something as simple as "WPEX has no rake. That means you are around (insert the appropriate number) 50 cents PER HAND better off by playing there compared to a raked site."

Any thoughts?

Thanks,
Cartman

[5thStreetHog]

[ QUOTE ]
Rake-free poker is a beautiful thing. Not only does it put a tremendous amount of extra money into our pockets, but it also allows the fish to keep more money in their pockets. Basically the the all winners win more, the big losers lose less (per unit of time), the breakeven guys win, and the small losers breakeven. When we hear the staggering revenue figures of one of the major poker sites, in my opinion we should salivate at the prospect of eventually splitting a figure like that up amongst ourselves. There are alot of poker players looking for a new home site right now due to the fallout from the recent legislation.

WPEX has given us a golden opportunity by offering rake-free poker. The problem is that most poker players, especially the fish, have never heard of it. I dont fault WPEX. After all, the advertising coffers aren't exactly overflowing because they charge no rake!

My question is...What if anything can we do to help WPEX gain market share? If we were somehow able to effectively convey the message , maybe something as simple as "WPEX has no rake. That means you are around (insert the appropriate number) 50 cents PER HAND better off by playing there compared to a raked site."

Any thoughts?

Thanks,
Cartman

[/ QUOTE ]I think they should be promoting their own site,but speaking for myself,the only reason i dont play there exclusively is the lack of traffic.As far as helping that,i guess you can tell people about the site when u get a chance.Other than that not sure what else you can do.

[Oberonn]

I keep seeing posts where WPX' efforts at advertising are slammed. While I have never seen a WPX advertisement on TV I have seen many of their advertisements in gambling publications distributed at B&M casinos and I have seen many more of their advertisements online.

In this current climate TV advertisements are probably not good bang for the buck.

If you really want to help WPX gain market share then play at the site more frequently. If everyone that wants to see WPX grow plays there just a little bit every week then the overall game selection will steadily improve.

[WarBus]

As nice as rake-free poker sounds it is a flawed business model. Rake is a necessary evil. The money generated from rake is needed to promote a site.

Without the help of affiliates and the thousands of links and banners they create, it is extremely difficult for a small poker site to grow.

Until WPEX starts a new affiliate program, not much growth will occur. A possible change could be to start a CPA affiliate program (much like Pokerstars) and if necessary require a 1x playthrough of the rakeback payments in the sportsbook/casino.

They need to get rid of the hype of 100% rakefree and promote it as a weekly mega bonus. The more you play the bigger the bonus. They could explain that they are returning your rake in the details of the bonus but hype that some players are getting over $3k a week in bonus money.

[bcblack]

I wouldn't mind if it became 90% RB, leaving them with a profit and some $ for marketing.

[5thStreetHog]

[ QUOTE ]
I wouldn't mind if it became 90% RB, leaving them with a profit and some $ for marketing.

[/ QUOTE ]They have money to market from their sportsbooking,its not like they are in need of charity and running a poker site out of the kindness of their hearts.They made a business decision that their poker site would be an advertisement for their booking.Although i agree that it would be nice to see them more aggressively market "poker".

[lfairban]

I downloaded it a couple of days ago. I have a problem with the way it keeps hand histories, no player names, just, "player 0, player 1, . . . ". This makes use of PokerTracker almost impossible. Last time I was on, PT wouldn't import at all. They may have changed the format or something.

I like the rackback, it is just the frustration is distracting to the point of tilt.

[PairTheBoard]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I wouldn't mind if it became 90% RB, leaving them with a profit and some $ for marketing.

[/ QUOTE ]They have money to market from their sportsbooking,its not like they are in need of charity and running a poker site out of the kindness of their hearts.They made a business decision that their poker site would be an advertisement for their booking.Although i agree that it would be nice to see them more aggressively market "poker".

[/ QUOTE ]

Along with drawing customers to their Sports Book, they may be planning to run the Poker Room rakefree as a loss leader for the Poker Room itself. When their Poker Room trafic gets large enough you may find you've shot yourself in the foot as they install Rake to profit from it.

PairTheBoard

[rwesty]

If they had good software their traffic would be much higher and growing. I think that's what they're concentrating most of their effort on at the moment and is a good first step.

[chefrm]

any way to get them to upgrade their software so it easier to Multi table......as of now....it is very difficult to focus for any period of time when multi tabling there.

[iH8poker]

[ QUOTE ]
any way to get them to upgrade their software so it easier to Multi table......as of now....it is very difficult to focus for any period of time when multi tabling there.

[/ QUOTE ]

How many tables do you multitable? They are set up for 4 tables at a time (plus tourneys I think). If you play short-handed thats a pretty fast ratio...about the same as 6 on stars because of a shorter clock on wsex. I can barely handled 4 short-handed, NL, tables myself. I'm testing the 5-top SNG waters (http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/showthreaded.php?Cat=0&Number=7693235&page=0&vc=1) .

All and all, I think the software is pretty good and the lags are less often. You gotta turn off animations though. I like the idea of the first $50 of rakeback goes to an affiliate and not the player. Something like this. "90% rakeback" is not near as good an ad as "100% rakeback" in my book. The first $50 would be a one time thing for new players only and would go to the affiliate...or maybe $35 to the affiliate and $15 for misc (free roll tourney, upgrades, ect.). What do you guys think of this idea?

iH8poker

[Little_Luck]

I like the idea of doing 1x in sportsbook/casino. This will generate revenue for wsex to be able to offer money to affliates. Any player who is smart enough to make money consistently at poker is smart enough to know how to limit the loss of 1x bonuses.

[iH8poker]

[ QUOTE ]
I like the idea of doing 1x in sportsbook/casino. This will generate revenue for wsex to be able to offer money to affliates. Any player who is smart enough to make money consistently at poker is smart enough to know how to limit the loss of 1x bonuses.

[/ QUOTE ]

What does this mean exactly? I like the idea of bonuses related to the sportsbook but their margins are thin as is so I have doubts.

1x in clearing a sports book bonus normally means you deposit $50, then bet $50, bonus is cleared. Is this what you mean?

[5thStreetHog]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I wouldn't mind if it became 90% RB, leaving them with a profit and some $ for marketing.

[/ QUOTE ]They have money to market from their sportsbooking,its not like they are in need of charity and running a poker site out of the kindness of their hearts.They made a business decision that their poker site would be an advertisement for their booking.Although i agree that it would be nice to see them more aggressively market "poker".

[/ QUOTE ]

Along with drawing customers to their Sports Book, they may be planning to run the Poker Room rakefree as a loss leader for the Poker Room itself. When their Poker Room trafic gets large enough you may find you've shot yourself in the foot as they install Rake to profit from it.

PairTheBoard

[/ QUOTE ]Your probably right.But ill enjoy it while it lasts /images/graemlins/grin.gif

[WarBus]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I like the idea of doing 1x in sportsbook/casino. This will generate revenue for wsex to be able to offer money to affliates. Any player who is smart enough to make money consistently at poker is smart enough to know how to limit the loss of 1x bonuses.

[/ QUOTE ]

What does this mean exactly? I like the idea of bonuses related to the sportsbook but their margins are thin as is so I have doubts.

1x in clearing a sports book bonus normally means you deposit $50, then bet $50, bonus is cleared. Is this what you mean?

[/ QUOTE ]

Correct. The margins are small, but it would require players to visit the sportsbook/casino on a weekly basis to receive their bonus money. Some players would only play games or place bets with a low house advantage. Others may feel like gambling it up with their free money.

The important part would be it would drive traffic to the sportsbook/casino of WPEX. Currently, the only reason for many players to visit the site is to deposit/withdraw money.

A 1x playthrough would require everyone to visit and potentially get hooked on a different form of gambling. If they add a "Sportsbetting for Dummies" section to their site for all the uninformed players, who knows how many players they could convert into long term sports bettors.

[Little_Luck]

Doing this 1x playthrough benefits us EV+ players much more than even 100 pct rb. By giving wsex additional revenue stream from donks wasting their rb checks in the sb/casino, it gives them some money to justify using to pay affliates and raise their real money players, making more rb wasted in sb/casino, and so on...

We benefit, if wsex has the ability to show a profit of x per poker client in offering affliates their piece. The players that are playing for a living or, at least, playing for a consistent profit will be smart enough to play blackjack or use it towards hedging sb bets. Say a $1,000 rb check 1x playthrough at blackjack has an expected loss with perfect play of around 5 dollars. Therefore, it turns into a 99.5 pct rakeback plus a little time spent playing blackjack.

I don't see how this 100 pct no-strings rakeback will work, except in a perfect world.

[redbeard]

lets also remember that wpex does make interest on the rake because it is not instanteoulsy returned to the player but returned at the end of the month. party used to make $4 million a day in rake. think how much interest that would add up to by the end of the month.

[Little_Luck]

Yes, but wsex has to eat the transaction costs associated with deposits and withdraws, which could be up to 3.9 percent.

[mpslg]

[ QUOTE ]
lets also remember that wpex does make interest on the rake because it is not instanteoulsy returned to the player but returned at the end of the week . party used to make $4 million a day in rake. think how much interest that would add up to by the end of the week .

[/ QUOTE ]

fyp

[Phil153]

[ QUOTE ]
What if anything can we do to help WPEX gain market share?

[/ QUOTE ]
Get them to charge rake and spend it on advertising.

[5thStreetHog]

Funny, the idea to help the gain traffic is to get them to charge rake.Catch 22 i guess,cause if they charge rake like everyone else,why even bother playing there? No bonuses,and a boat load of 2+2`rs there.The minute they charge rake im gone.

[Megenoita]

I say 75% RB, 25% rake, and friggin' advertise.

[vilemerchant]

[ QUOTE ]
Basically the the all winners win more, the big losers lose less (per unit of time), the breakeven guys win, and the small losers breakeven.

[/ QUOTE ]

If party was to stop charging rake these statements would apply. At WSEX however I would say that any fish that does find himself wandering into a game would get routed in quick time by the 7-8 TAGS that infest the tables, rakeback or not. Loose calls in a tight game is a much bigger mistake than loose calls in a loose game.

[Nietzsche]

Perhaps spam the free money tables with links to WPEX and a brief explanation of what rake is (everyone loves a bargain). To US citizens it doesn't matter if Party shuts down their accounts.

[5thStreetHog]

[ QUOTE ]
I say 75% RB, 25% rake, and friggin' advertise.

[/ QUOTE ]Id be down with that.

[sweetjazz]

[ QUOTE ]
I say 75% RB, 25% rake, and friggin' advertise.

[/ QUOTE ]

So if they rake 100% of the pot, but give you back 75% you'd be happy with that. /images/graemlins/wink.gif

I think you have the right idea. What if they raked $1 for every flop seen? That would save people money over the basic sites, but give them some revenue to advertise, upgrade software, etc.

[Synergistic Explosions]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I say 75% RB, 25% rake, and friggin' advertise.

[/ QUOTE ]

So if they rake 100% of the pot, but give you back 75% you'd be happy with that. /images/graemlins/wink.gif

I think you have the right idea. What if they raked $1 for every flop seen? That would save people money over the basic sites, but give them some revenue to advertise, upgrade software, etc.

[/ QUOTE ]

They charged rake for years. That didn't seem to encourage their affiliates to promote them hard, or a plethora of advertising.

How bout we just let them do their thing and enjoy the rake free site, OK?

Thanks.

[thetruest]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I wouldn't mind if it became 90% RB, leaving them with a profit and some $ for marketing.

[/ QUOTE ]They have money to market from their sportsbooking,its not like they are in need of charity and running a poker site

[/ QUOTE ]

rake is charity? how come people didn't say that about party?

[Sciolist]

Is there any kind of law that says you can't run adverts for a company that isn't yours? I wouldn't be too surprised if there were: You couldn't run an ad that was subtly bad for a rival, right?

[Marnixvdb]

[ QUOTE ]
Is there any kind of law that says you can't run adverts for a company that isn't yours? I wouldn't be too surprised if there were: You couldn't run an ad that was subtly bad for a rival, right?

[/ QUOTE ]

not an expert by any means but i expect there is no direct law against this, although I suppose persons and businesses are protected from this through the (copyright) protection of trademarks & images (logo's)

[5thStreetHog]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I wouldn't mind if it became 90% RB, leaving them with a profit and some $ for marketing.

[/ QUOTE ]They have money to market from their sportsbooking,its not like they are in need of charity and running a poker site

[/ QUOTE ]

rake is charity? how come people didn't say that about party?

[/ QUOTE ]Your misquoting me,i never said rake is charity,you just took a word i used out of context and applied it fit your remark.(are you a polititian? /images/graemlins/grin.gif)Iwas responding to the theory that they werent making any money to advertise because they charged no rake,and i pointed out that the POKER tables werent being run as a CHARITY to help us poor players play for free.It was done to promote their booking.It was a business move by them.

[rwesty]

The people arguing that they should be charging rake are ridiculous. They make money from their sportsbook. There are tons of sites that have 50-90% rakeback, some with over 100% if you find the right deal. 100% rakeback with no strings attached or trouble finding a certain affiliate/prop manager is exactly what separates them from the other poker rooms. This should not change.

Give them some time. Once they have quality software I think their traffic will grow steadily. They have and will spend sportsbook profits to advertise the free poker room.