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View Full Version : Property: The Great Leap Forward (Very TL;DR)


Borodog
10-16-2006, 05:32 PM
Cliff's notes at bottom.

In The Ancestor’s Tale, Richard Dawkins discusses a 40,000 year old cultural revolution that he calls the “Great Leap Forward,” after the fashion of Jared Diamond:

[ QUOTE ]
Archaeology suggests that something very special began to happen to our species around 40,000 years ago. Anatomically, our ancestors who lived before this watershed date were the same as those who came later. Humans sampled earlier than the watershed would be no more different from us than they were from their own contemporaries in other parts of the world, or indeed than we are from our contemporaries. That’s if you look at their anatomy. If you look at their culture, there is a huge difference. Of course there are also huge differences between the cultures of different peoples across the world today, and probably then too. But this wasn’t true if we go back much more than 40,000 years. Something happened then – many archaeologists regard it as sudden enough to be called an ‘event.’ I like Jared Diamond’s name for it, the Great Leap Forward.
<font color="white"> . </font>
Earlier than the Great Leap Forward, man-made artifacts had hardly changed for a million years. The ones that survive for us are almost entirely stone tools and weapons, quite crudely shaped. Doubtless wood (or in Asia, bamboo) was a more frequently worked material, but wooden relics don’t easily survive. As far as we can tell, there were no paintings, no carvings, no figurines, no grave goods, no ornamentation. After the Leap, all these things suddenly appear in the archaeological record, together with musical instruments such as bone flutes, and it wasn’t long before stunning creations like the Lascaux Cave murals were created by Cro-Magnon people. A disinterested observer taking the long view from another planet might see our modern culture, with its computers, supersonic planes and space exploration, as an afterthought to the Great Leap Forward. On the very long geological timescale, all our modern achievements, from the Sistine Chapel to Special Relativity, from the Goldberg Variations to the Goldbach Conjecture, could be seen as almost contemporaneous with the Venus of Willendorf and the Lascaux Caves, all part of the same cultural revolution, all part of the blooming cultural upsurge that succeeded the long Lower Palaeolithic stagnation . . . The Ancestor’s Tale, Richard Dawkins, p.35.

[/ QUOTE ]

What could be the cause of this “Great Leap”? Dawkins summarizes the theories that it was the origin of language, or perhaps some particular facet of language that allowed for this cultural revolution:

[ QUOTE ]
Some authorities are so impressed by the Great Leap Forward that they think it coincided with the origin of language. What else, they ask, could account for such a sudden change? It is not as silly as it sounds to suggest that language arose suddenly. Nobody thinks writing goes back more than a few thousand years, and everyone agrees that brain anatomy didn’t change to coincide with anything so recent as the invention of writing. In theory, speech could be another example of the same thing. Nevertheless, my hunch, supported by the authority of linguists such as Steven Pinker, is that language is older than the Leap . . .
<font color="white"> . </font>
If not language itself, perhaps the Great Leap Forward coincided with the sudden discovery of what we might call a new software technique: maybe a new trick of grammar, such as the conditional clause, which, at a stroke, would enabled ‘what if’ imagination to flower. Or maybe early language, before the leap, could be used to talk only about things that were there on the scene. Perhaps some forgotten genius realized the possibility of using words referentially as tokens of things that were not immediately present. It is the difference between ‘That waterhole which we can both see’ and ‘Suppose there was a waterhole the other side of the hill.’ Or perhaps representational art, which is all but unknown in the archaeological record before the Leap, was the bridge to referential language. Perhaps people learned to draw bison, before they learned to talk about bison that were not immediately visible.

[/ QUOTE ]

Personally, I have no doubt that language could have arisen swiftly, perhaps stunningly so. Language provides such an enormous selective advantage on its users that I find it difficult to conceive of what mechanism could prevent “language runaway” once a species developed sentience (which I define somewhat arbitrarily as the capacity to make long term future plans, rationally deduce and weigh the likely outcomes of alternate plans and then choose among them).

However, for precisely this reason I think it is very unlikely that the Great Leap Forward had anything to do with language. Although it is likely impossible to say from the fossil record (although theoretically not impossible to say from analysis of our DNA), I think it is quite likely that language is very old indeed, precisely because I see no mechanism that can halt its runaway development once humanity became human (i.e. rational), and that evidently happened millions of years ago. How do I know this? Because humans have been making capital goods (stone tools) for millions of years that can only be used at some distant time in an individual’s future; he must plan to use the tool and then make it before he can actually do utilize it. He does this because he realizes that he can be more productive in the future with the tool than he can be in the present without it (as an aside, he must first engage in savings and/or forego present consumption while he constructs his tool; he is willing to do this again because he realizes that he values higher rates of consumption in the future for the lower rate of consumption he must endure in the present, during the tool’s production).

So if it was not language that made the Great Leap Forward possible, what was it? My strong hunch is that it was the advent of the concept of property. More specifically, the concept of inherent respect of other people’s property.

Consider this. As I have said on many an occasion, every two year old and dog has a concept of property; both inherently understand the concept of “Mine!” If a dog has a bone and you attempt to take it from him, he will snap, snarl, bite and otherwise defend his claim. Take candy from a baby and the baby will quickly let you know that he feels he has been wronged.

But what is it that dogs and babies do not have a concept of? “Yours.” Or at least, no concept of the persistence of “Yours”.

Consider specifically a pack of wolves. A wolf with a haunch of meat will defend it from aggressors who would seek to take it from him. The wolf understand “mine.” What the wolf does not understand is “yours.” This is not to say, of course, that every wolf attempts at every opportunity to violently take away the food of every other wolf; this would be very costly. Such behavior is evolutionarily penalized. Each wolf tends to avoid the risks of violent conflict and the associated costs (unless of course he is starving, since the reward (not dying of starvation) is worth the risk (possible injury or death). Note this neatly explains the behavior of various members of the pack; the alpha male is the alpha because he is the strongest. His risk during conflict is the lowest, and hence is incentivized toward conflict and will tend to steal the meat of lesser wolves at will until he is satiated. Meanwhile, lesser ranking wolves are lesser ranking precisely because they are weaker, and their risks during conflict are greater, and they will tend to avoid conflict with the Alpha male by relinquishing their claims on their property. These same incentives work all the way down the pack order, leading to a very orderly hierarchical structure in the pack.

But what happens when a wolf is distracted and his attention leaves his property? Other wolves do not respect his claim. They will dart in and steal his property at will. I see this behavior all the time in my dogs; they do not respect other’s claims on property except when those claims are being actively defended. A dog will steal a toy as soon as the other dog is not looking. A dog will steal another’s place (or yours) on the couch when you get up for a moment.

Apparently wolves and dogs can respect others’ property only so long as those claims are actively defended; i.e. they have no persistence of respect for others’ property.

The same is true for our nearest evolutionary cousins, the great apes. Gorillas and chimpanzees certainly understand “Mine”, and they seem to understand “Yours” as long as you are watching them (again, to within a hierarchical structure created by strength ratios within the group and the associated incentives to conflict and acquiescence), but they have no “Persistence of Yours.”

How then are modern humans different, at least regarding this one notion, the persistence of “yours”, than dogs and chimpanzees? Well, modern (adult) humans clearly have a concept of the “persistence of yours”, even when you are not around. This is certainly cultural to some extent, although part of it may be innate (I suspect part of it must be, and will provide a supporting argument below).

I believe that that it is impossible to deny that in general humans actually have this quality, persistence of the respect for others’ property claims even in the absence of an active defense of those claims, either to a greater or lesser extent in every culture, purely from empirical evidence alone. How many millions of empty houses on empty streets could be looted during the day by how many millions if this were not the case? Indeed I claim that modern civilization could not be possible in the absence of this quality for the following reasons.

If human beings did not in general respect property in the absence of an active defense, what would society look like? Well, there would be no incentive to produce anything that you could not carry with you at all times and defend easily from attack. Even if you could carry it, there would still be little incentive, because you must at some point sleep, at which time you can fully expect it to be stolen. Hence people might only manufacture those things that they could physically wear, or tie around themselves, or lay across while sleeping, such that they would have to at least be woken before their property could be stolen. Such a culture could never accumulate much in the way of capital beyond skins and stone tools because there is literally no incentive to do so. Does this sound familiar to you?

I suspect quite strongly that the lack of this one concept, the persistence of the respect for property in the absence of active defense, the “Persistence of Yours,” is what kept the Paleolithic culture stagnant for a million years or more. In fact, it cannot but be that there was a transition at some point from the wolflike state of affairs without this concept to the modern state of affairs with it. What exactly should we expect to see looking back at the archaeological record during such a transition?

We should expect to see a change in the culture from very minimal capital goods to more elaborate capital goods. More time would be invested in creating them if they were less likely to be stolen. The same would logic would apply for leisure goods such as art and flutes; they are more likely to be made if they are less likely to be stolen. Furthermore, as more and more elaborate capital goods are made and accumulated, productivity will rise, as will standards of living and leisure time. More time resources could be diverted to such activities as art, for example cave paintings. In short, there should be a rapid paradigm shift, a phase change from an impoverished cultural dearth to a rich and blossoming culture. This is exactly what is observed in the Great Leap Forward.

I said that I would propose an argument for why modern humanity should innately behave in this manner. This concept, like language, provides such incredible benefits upon those who practices it that it cannot help but exert powerful selection pressure. Those who practice the Persistence of Yours will gain a tremendous evolutionary advantage over those who don’t. This is why we would expect human beings to innately behave in this manner; it could not but be selected for strongly.

One might then object that, according to my earlier arguments, this phase chase, the development of the Persistence of Yours should have developed early, like language. I would argue that that is not necessarily the case at all. In the case of language, the apparatus of language was already there, the ability to grunt and vocalize and communicate that provided the raw material for evolution to work upon was already extent. But the idea of the respect for other people’s property in the absence of them actively defending it does not seem to be an evolutionarily “obvious” solution. Hundreds of millions of years of evolution point to just the opposite; taking whatever you can when you can get away with it. There doesn’t seem to be any obvious “raw material” for this behavior to develop from, which was not the case for language.

So we must then ask, how does this mechanism operate? Is it some warm fuzzy nebulous feeling that you shouldn’t take other people’s stuff? I suspect part of it is exactly that, reinforced culturally (because cultures evolve as well, and cultures that have such an ethic will outcompete cultures that do not), but I think by far the most significant thing is actually willingness of the group to back up the property owner.

Think of a small tribe of human beings. Each must consumer, and in order to consume they must produce, and none wants to have his produce stolen. However, each is also continually tempted to steal from the other members, because it is easier than producing. In other words, this society is essentially a giant set of Iterated Prisoners’ Dilemmas, without foreseeable end. The proper strategy for such a “game”, is Tit For Tat, where the “players” (members of the tribe) cooperate (do not steal from each other), until such time as one of them “defects” (steals from someone else), at which time the victim punishes him by not cooperating in the future and/or “defecting” against him in turn (stealing his stuff back, maybe and then some). Essentially, because each member of the tribe does not want to be stolen from, he should not steal.

More importantly is the willingness by other members of the group to help the wronged by acting collectively against the individual who wronged him; i.e. they got his back. This tends to negate the power differentials that incentivize conflict and theft by the Alpha males and other strong members in a wolf pack type structure, because the entire group is willing to come to the aid of the victim. I.e. when the group “backs up” the victim because they don’t want their stuff stolen. I’m not sure what the game theoretical term for such a strategy is, if there is one. I’ll call it Backed Up Tit For Tat.

The Backed Up Tit For Tat strategy is exactly what is needed for the Persistence of Yours to get going, are again there should be powerful selection pressures favoring it. The Great Leap Forward represents the inevitable result of the falling into place of the other side of the coin that is private property, bringing “yours” and “mine” together in a kind of economic yin-yang relationship.

This is not to say, of course, that human beings don’t also still have their wolflike evolutionary heritage. When people believe they can get away with it, they steal, and the likelihood of the theft goes up with the perceived reward and down with the perceived risk. As David Sklansky loves to remind us, if an Angolan can steal a billion dollars from Bill Gates without getting caught, he’ll do it, and it doesn’t even make sense to ask questions about whether or not he “should” do it. It’s just that the Backed Up Tit For Tat strategy seeks to reduce the potential rewards of theft and increase the potential risks.

Theft, by the way, tends to occur when the individual either is in a unique situation (i.e. a single Prisoners’ Dilemma and not an Iterated Prisoners’ Dilemma), or in situations where an individual’s time preference is so high that he believes it to be like a single PD instead of and IPD (even if he has never heard the terms and does not understand the concepts; they still apply to him).

Lastly, I think I may have just explained an extremely important piece of human history. Where do I go from here with my theory?

Cliff's Notes: The cultural Great Leap Forward of 40,000 BC can be explained by the advent of the "respect" of other people's claims to property even in the absence of their active defense of those claims. I've just explained a crucial piece of human history. I rock. Etc.

Shadowrun
10-16-2006, 05:54 PM
very intresting, do you have any sort of proof why you belief the great leap foward was the concept of "yours" other than your logic/analogy?

P.S. I did read the whole post.

Borodog
10-16-2006, 06:53 PM
[ QUOTE ]
very intresting, do you have any sort of proof why you belief the great leap foward was the concept of "yours" other than your logic/analogy?

[/ QUOTE ]

Not a whit. But my gut feeling is that it is very unlikely for it to not be correct.

chezlaw
10-16-2006, 07:06 PM
Seems plausible to me. I'd call it the discovery of trust based morality but its noticable from AC discussions that this and property rights are basically the same.

Interesting stuff. Not convinced it couldn't be something else that caused the great leap forward but seems likely that morailty/property rights were neccesary at some point.

chez

Nielsio
10-16-2006, 07:09 PM
Haven't read the whole thing yet, but you'll probably enjoy this one:

http://ca.geocities.com/s.molyneux@rogers.com/Essays/history/historical_causality.htm

Borodog
10-16-2006, 07:37 PM
[ QUOTE ]
Seems plausible to me. I'd call it the discovery of trust based morality but its noticable from AC discussions that this and property rights are basically the same.

Interesting stuff. Not convinced it couldn't be something else that caused the great leap forward but seems likely that morailty/property rights were neccesary at some point.

chez

[/ QUOTE ]

I would call "trust based morality" the implementation of the property right recognition. So yes, same difference.

hmkpoker
10-16-2006, 08:12 PM
Excellent post /images/graemlins/smile.gif

The Backed up Tit for Tat (this term needs some work /images/graemlins/smile.gif) pretty much explains how a judicial system can work independent of a state. It really answers a lot of questions that non-ACists ask.

[ QUOTE ]
Lastly, I think I may have just explained an extremely important piece of human history. Where do I go from here with my theory?

[/ QUOTE ]

The logical conclusion of this is an advocacy of anarchocapitalism, you just got to it through a different route than Mises took.

guesswest
10-16-2006, 09:14 PM
I agree this is an excellent post, I really enjoyed it. It's decidedly speculative, but I don't see any reason why it couldn't be valid.

But even if it's correct, it's a huge step to to say 'the logical conclusion of this is an advocacy of AC'. The only logical conclusion is that whatever political system results should incorporate some recognition of property rights, which more or less all of them do. That's not to say AC is desirable or not but if it is this isn't the argument that gets us there.

Borodog
10-16-2006, 09:30 PM
Yeah, I don't think this article says anything at all about modern political systems, and that was not the intention.

madnak
10-16-2006, 09:40 PM
I don't think property "is" the Great Leap Forward. Or language, or art. I don't know what the Great Leap Forward "is," but I think property, language, and art all moved to the next level when it "happened." And I don't think you could have one without the others. I'd liken it to the Cambrian explosion. I'm not sure there was any single trigger - more like building momentum and feedback patterns.

laurentia
10-16-2006, 09:49 PM
[ QUOTE ]
Cliff's notes at bottom.

In The Ancestor’s Tale, Richard Dawkins discusses a 40,000 year old cultural revolution that he calls the “Great Leap Forward,” after the fashion of Jared Diamond:

[ QUOTE ]
Archaeology suggests that something very special began to happen to our species around 40,000 years ago. Anatomically, our ancestors who lived before this watershed date were the same as those who came later. Humans sampled earlier than the watershed would be no more different from us than they were from their own contemporaries in other parts of the world, or indeed than we are from our contemporaries.

[/ QUOTE ]

I didn't expect Dawkins to be that politically correct. According to data not much publicized there are race differences in cranial capacity. Which race's brain size was he comparing to the 40000 year old samples when finding no difference? Also how does he know that there weren't any major mutations around that time that couldn't be seen anatomically but increased intelligence?
Until those questions are answered I will have to go with the simplest explanation: If they seemed to be smarter then they were indeed.
It is like the extension of nature vs nurture debate by the way and as we know most expert believe that their ratio is about 70:30.(at least that is what I think,heh)

Nielsio
10-16-2006, 09:51 PM
[ QUOTE ]
But even if it's correct, it's a huge step to to say 'the logical conclusion of this is an advocacy of AC'. The only logical conclusion is that whatever political system results should incorporate some recognition of property rights, which more or less all of them do.

[/ QUOTE ]

Well: no. Statism is fundamentally against/disrespects property rights. This includes minarchism. That's what makes a voluntary society (anarchocapitalism/market anarchy/no state) so special.

hmkpoker
10-16-2006, 09:54 PM
[ QUOTE ]
But even if it's correct, it's a huge step to to say 'the logical conclusion of this is an advocacy of AC'.

[/ QUOTE ]

Oh, definately. I just said that's where I think this argument is headed.

gdsdiscgolfer
10-16-2006, 10:38 PM
You need to get this article to outlets besides this forum.

hmkpoker
10-16-2006, 10:45 PM
[ QUOTE ]
You need to get this article to outlets besides this forum.

[/ QUOTE ]

See boro, I'm not the only one /images/graemlins/wink.gif

guesswest
10-16-2006, 11:02 PM
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
But even if it's correct, it's a huge step to to say 'the logical conclusion of this is an advocacy of AC'. The only logical conclusion is that whatever political system results should incorporate some recognition of property rights, which more or less all of them do.

[/ QUOTE ]

Well: no. Statism is fundamentally against/disrespects property rights. This includes minarchism. That's what makes a voluntary society (anarchocapitalism/market anarchy/no state) so special.

[/ QUOTE ]

I'll keep this brief because it's getting off-topic and that's not fair on the OP. But statism, from socialism to minarchism, all require some degree of respect for property rights and put some value on those rights - it's identified as a necessary incentive almost accross the board. The disagreement is only as to how much importance we assign property rights and whether it's a more fundamental maxim than other ones that (possibly) compete - almost everyone agrees they have some amount of importance and should not be curtailed completely.

Borodog
10-16-2006, 11:19 PM
[ QUOTE ]
You need to get this article to outlets besides this forum.

[/ QUOTE ]

I've already delivered a copy of the third draft to a friend for possible collaboration on a publication. He's an economist; I need an evolutionary scientist.

Borodog
10-16-2006, 11:56 PM
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Cliff's notes at bottom.

In The Ancestor’s Tale, Richard Dawkins discusses a 40,000 year old cultural revolution that he calls the “Great Leap Forward,” after the fashion of Jared Diamond:

[ QUOTE ]
Archaeology suggests that something very special began to happen to our species around 40,000 years ago. Anatomically, our ancestors who lived before this watershed date were the same as those who came later. Humans sampled earlier than the watershed would be no more different from us than they were from their own contemporaries in other parts of the world, or indeed than we are from our contemporaries.

[/ QUOTE ]

[/ QUOTE ]

I didn't expect Dawkins to be that politically correct. According to data not much publicized there are race differences in cranial capacity. Which race's brain size was he comparing to the 40000 year old samples when finding no difference?

[/ QUOTE ]

The point is that the human fossils of 40,000 BC fall within the range of modern variation.

[ QUOTE ]
Also how does he know that there weren't any major mutations around that time that couldn't be seen anatomically but increased intelligence?

[/ QUOTE ]

He doesn't. He didn't claim there weren't any such. He specificlally restricted his statments to anatomy.

[ QUOTE ]
Until those questions are answered I will have to go with the simplest explanation: If they seemed to be smarter then they were indeed.

[/ QUOTE ]

Except that isn't the simplest explanation. My explanation is the simpest, and by far. My theory essentially states that:

A) We were demonstrably in the wolf-like state of disrepect of property claims in the absence of active defense in the distant past.
B) We are not in this state now.
C) Once this trait arises is it heavily selected for.
D) The consequences of this are a phase change in human culture from stagnation to flourishment.
E) This is exactly what is observed in the Great Leap Forward.

This makes my theory clearly the simplest. Simply being "more intelligent" does not help. All of my arguments about the disincentives to produce complex capital and leisure goods, i.e. culture, are correct regardless of the intelligence of the actors (so long as they are rational).

[ QUOTE ]
It is like the extension of nature vs nurture debate by the way and as we know most expert believe that their ratio is about 70:30.(at least that is what I think,heh)

[/ QUOTE ]

Mmmm. Ok. /images/graemlins/confused.gif

John21
10-17-2006, 01:23 AM
Great post and theory. I'd say the next step would be to make it testable by being falsifiable.

If you're intending to use it as a premise for AC, the only connection that comes immediately to mind is:
While 'mine' is a thing,
and 'yours' is a thing,
'ours' (us) is a non-thing.
(I exist. You exist. Us [the foundation of all orgainization and goverment] is an abstraction.)

TJ Eckleburg
10-17-2006, 04:23 AM
When I first saw that Borodog had authored a post with "Property" and "The Great Leap Forward" in the subject...

...I thought I was going to read some good capitalist truth about how farm collectivization led to the worst famine in recorded human history!

Haha.

Took me a few lines into that quote to realize that wasn't quite what you were talking about. But I thoroughly enjoyed the post nonetheless.

Get this published somewhere.

Exsubmariner
10-17-2006, 07:46 AM
[ QUOTE ]
How do I know this? Because humans have been making capital goods (stone tools) for millions of years that can only be used at some distant time in an individual’s future; he must plan to use the tool and then make it before he can actually do utilize it. He does this because he realizes that he can be more productive in the future with the tool than he can be in the present without it (as an aside, he must first engage in savings and/or forego present consumption while he constructs his tool; he is willing to do this again because he realizes that he values higher rates of consumption in the future for the lower rate of consumption he must endure in the present, during the tool’s production).


[/ QUOTE ]

How did you come up with this? Just because a primative human practices/imitates/was shown a behavior like this, doesn't mean that they knew how to articulate it.

I know a number of chodes who are very skillful in one particular thing (poker /images/graemlins/tongue.gif, for example). If you ask them to tell you about the processes involved in the doing of that thing, they are unable to communicate them. Communicators have a distinct advantage, even in modern times. Not all humans are good or even adequate communicators.

laurentia
10-17-2006, 10:15 AM
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Cliff's notes at bottom.

In The Ancestor’s Tale, Richard Dawkins discusses a 40,000 year old cultural revolution that he calls the “Great Leap Forward,” after the fashion of Jared Diamond:

[ QUOTE ]
Archaeology suggests that something very special began to happen to our species around 40,000 years ago. Anatomically, our ancestors who lived before this watershed date were the same as those who came later. Humans sampled earlier than the watershed would be no more different from us than they were from their own contemporaries in other parts of the world, or indeed than we are from our contemporaries.

[/ QUOTE ]

[/ QUOTE ]

I didn't expect Dawkins to be that politically correct. According to data not much publicized there are race differences in cranial capacity. Which race's brain size was he comparing to the 40000 year old samples when finding no difference?

[/ QUOTE ]

The point is that the human fossils of 40,000 BC fall within the range of modern variation.

[/ QUOTE ]

[/ QUOTE ]

That range is over 100 IQ point wide. Not only everybody but almost anything would fall into that or at least overlap with it now or even 40,000,000 years ago. Koko the gorilla supposedly knew more than 1000 signs and understood several thousand words.

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Also how does he know that there weren't any major mutations around that time that couldn't be seen anatomically but increased intelligence?

[/ QUOTE ]

He doesn't. He didn't claim there weren't any such. He specificlally restricted his statments to anatomy.



[ QUOTE ]
Until those questions are answered I will have to go with the simplest explanation: If they seemed to be smarter then they were indeed.

[/ QUOTE ]

Except that isn't the simplest explanation. My explanation is the simpest, and by far. My theory essentially states that:

A) We were demonstrably in the wolf-like state of disrepect of property claims in the absence of active defense in the distant past.
B) We are not in this state now.
C) Once this trait arises is it heavily selected for.
D) The consequences of this are a phase change in human culture from stagnation to flourishment.
E) This is exactly what is observed in the Great Leap Forward.

[/ QUOTE ]

To explain the Cro-Magnon murals with respect for property rights seems at least bizarre. And I am wondering what scale you are using to measure simplicity. You are introducing a new term - "the willingness by other members of the group to help the wronged by acting collectively against the individual who wronged him" - but don't explain why it appears at a certain point. The simplest explanation for me would be a change in brain chemistry. But if there is a change in brain chemistry then who needs the other unnecessary complications like whatever you introduced to explain the changes that occured 40,000 years ago.

Also I doubt that your point B is correct. We are not in a wolf-like state because we are afraid of the consequences which can range from being disliked to being killed by other members of the group. Or we simply like the other members and want them to be happy with their property. Those feelings might be seen like respect for property rights and an alien might even call them that, but only until he sees the behavior of a mob during a riot.

[ QUOTE ]
This makes my theory clearly the simplest. Simply being "more intelligent" does not help. All of my arguments about the disincentives to produce complex capital and leisure goods, i.e. culture, are correct regardless of the intelligence of the actors (so long as they are rational).

[ QUOTE ]
It is like the extension of nature vs nurture debate by the way and as we know most expert believe that their ratio is about 70:30.(at least that is what I think,heh)

[/ QUOTE ]

Mmmm. Ok. /images/graemlins/confused.gif

[/ QUOTE ]

tolbiny
10-17-2006, 10:41 AM
[ QUOTE ]
The simplest explanation for me would be a change in brain chemistry. But if there is a change in brain chemistry then who needs the other unnecessary complications like whatever you introduced to explain the changes that occured 40,000 years ago.


[/ QUOTE ]

I don't think you quite followed. A change in brain chemistry would lead to different behaviors and actions. Borodog is proposing that there was a change in behavior ~40,000 years ago, but not speculating on what might have caused that change.

Boro-
Looking at Island cultures could yield lots of support for your proposal. To reach a distant island you have to interpret smoke, waves, or weather patterns to figure out its there and then plan, build and test a boat of some kind. Coincidentally the oldest estimates that i have seen for the expansion to Australia occured between 30-40k years ago.

Borodog
10-17-2006, 11:30 AM
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
How do I know this? Because humans have been making capital goods (stone tools) for millions of years that can only be used at some distant time in an individual’s future; he must plan to use the tool and then make it before he can actually do utilize it. He does this because he realizes that he can be more productive in the future with the tool than he can be in the present without it (as an aside, he must first engage in savings and/or forego present consumption while he constructs his tool; he is willing to do this again because he realizes that he values higher rates of consumption in the future for the lower rate of consumption he must endure in the present, during the tool’s production).


[/ QUOTE ]

How did you come up with this? Just because a primative human practices/imitates/was shown a behavior like this, doesn't mean that they knew how to articulate it.

I know a number of chodes who are very skillful in one particular thing (poker /images/graemlins/tongue.gif, for example). If you ask them to tell you about the processes involved in the doing of that thing, they are unable to communicate them. Communicators have a distinct advantage, even in modern times. Not all humans are good or even adequate communicators.

[/ QUOTE ]

That wasn't my argument. My argument was that language is so incredibly useful that it would be selected for strongly as soon as human beings became rational, and they have been rational for a couple million years, as evidenced by the fact that they have been making capital goods for that long, which requires planning for the (at least somewhat) distant future. My guess would be that complex language has existed for at least 1.8 million years, although I have no way to prove it.

On the other hand, Dawkins points out that there is a family that has a mutation in the FOXP2 gene that have great difficulty with language. The FOXP2 genes of chimpanzees and field mice differ by a single nucleotide, whereas the human FOXP2 differs by another 2 nucleotides. The implication is that the FOXP2 gene is important for language, had previously been highly conserved, but has rapidly evolved in the human line sometime after the human-chimp split. Molecular genetic dating of those changes (using nearby unread DNA sequences that are free to mutate; the FOXP2 gene cannot itself be dated; it's too highly conserved) shows them to be only 200,000 years old. Although the error bars are very large.

But that is still way before the Great Leap Forward.

Borodog
10-17-2006, 11:31 AM
[ QUOTE ]
Great post and theory. I'd say the next step would be to make it testable by being falsifiable.

[/ QUOTE ]

That's the trick, isn't it?

samsonite2100
10-17-2006, 11:50 AM
I don't follow either. The following passage

[ QUOTE ]
However, for precisely this reason I think it is very unlikely that the Great Leap Forward had anything to do with language. Although it is likely impossible to say from the fossil record (although theoretically not impossible to say from analysis of our DNA), I think it is quite likely that language is very old indeed, precisely because I see no mechanism that can halt its runaway development once humanity became human (i.e. rational), and that evidently happened millions of years ago. How do I know this? Because humans have been making capital goods (stone tools) for millions of years that can only be used at some distant time in an individual’s future

[/ QUOTE ]

seems to be saying approximately the following: "I don't believe that humans only invented language 40,000 years b/c the fossilized tool record is millions of years old, and if humans were making tools millions of years ago, they must have had language, too."

There is simply no evidence that this is true, however, beyond OP's hunch. There's also no reason to think that, assuming OP is right and human language has existed for millions of years, that the concept of "yours" wasn't part of that primitive lexicon.

I actually like this theory in a speculative, cocktail party kind of way, but that's as far as it goes, for me anyway.

Borodog
10-17-2006, 12:14 PM
[ QUOTE ]
I don't follow either. The following passage

[ QUOTE ]
However, for precisely this reason I think it is very unlikely that the Great Leap Forward had anything to do with language. Although it is likely impossible to say from the fossil record (although theoretically not impossible to say from analysis of our DNA), I think it is quite likely that language is very old indeed, precisely because I see no mechanism that can halt its runaway development once humanity became human (i.e. rational), and that evidently happened millions of years ago. How do I know this? Because humans have been making capital goods (stone tools) for millions of years that can only be used at some distant time in an individual’s future

[/ QUOTE ]

seems to be saying approximately the following: "I don't believe that humans only invented language 40,000 years b/c the fossilized tool record is millions of years old, and if humans were making tools millions of years ago, they must have had language, too."

There is simply no evidence that this is true, however, beyond OP's hunch.

[/ QUOTE ]

Well, actually there is some evidence. But it is very thin and not undisputed.

[ QUOTE ]
There's also no reason to think that, assuming OP is right and human language has existed for millions of years, that the concept of "yours" wasn't part of that primitive lexicon.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yes, there is. I explained it in the OP. The raw material for language was already extent. The raw material for respecting other people property when the aren't defending it likely wasn't. Both should be selected for strongly once they got started, but language should get started a long time ago. The later might never have gotten started, but somehow did (I'm not speculating on how; I don't know) 40,000 years ago.

Exsubmariner
10-17-2006, 12:59 PM
AH-HA!
I don't know what did it, but something you wrote there made something click. As I recall, Diamond's great leap forward had to do with farming. When people figured out that they could cultivate wild plants by planting seeds and returning to the same place the next year, they eventually stopped wandering and stayed in one place as full time cultivators. In turn, the planting of certain types of plants which appealed to game made the game come to them.

I think this is what you want to take on when you talk about property being part of the Great Leap Forward. Not ownership of things, per se, because as you argued capital goods were produced for a million years. Ownership of tools must have been around for some time by this period.

I suppose that it is possible for a tool maker to wander around making tools out of available materials without the conscious realization of the tools implications. Chimpanzees make and use tools to extract termites from their nests in the wild. The Chimpanzees do not carry around a tool kit of termite extractors, however, they simply disgard them and make more later. I suppose a protohuman might be capable of making a stone tool and then recreating it again and again after disgarding it once its purpose has been fulfilled.

Clearly, it isn't ownership of tools you need to approach, but ownership of land. If a human or group of humans owns land and defends land because of the presence of game or crops, than the concept of not mine but yours becomes extremely important, as opposed to being applied to objects.

Then, once ownership of land by a certain group has been established, systems of collective defense of that territory and collective labor for the production of the lands yield can be put in place. Wha - la. You have civilization, with the concept of property rights being the key impetus. (I rock, too.)

Nielsio
10-17-2006, 01:03 PM
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
But even if it's correct, it's a huge step to to say 'the logical conclusion of this is an advocacy of AC'. The only logical conclusion is that whatever political system results should incorporate some recognition of property rights, which more or less all of them do.

[/ QUOTE ]

Well: no. Statism is fundamentally against/disrespects property rights. This includes minarchism. That's what makes a voluntary society (anarchocapitalism/market anarchy/no state) so special.

[/ QUOTE ]

I'll keep this brief because it's getting off-topic and that's not fair on the OP. But statism, from socialism to minarchism, all require some degree of respect for property rights and put some value on those rights - it's identified as a necessary incentive almost accross the board. The disagreement is only as to how much importance we assign property rights and whether it's a more fundamental maxim than other ones that (possibly) compete - almost everyone agrees they have some amount of importance and should not be curtailed completely.

[/ QUOTE ]


Every state relies on (a monopoly on) force. It is not a business that deals on a voluntary basis. It is completely dependant on various forms of wealth extraction through this power difference (taxation, inflaction, etc). And people, like yourself, then make the claim that the aim of this organization is to safeguard property rights. But this is completely impossible ofcourse, because the people in the territory stop having any property (including their bodies) the instant the monopoly is created. What happens to the people and their property is completely up to the whims of the ruling class. And like I said: the state cannot even exist without parasitical wealth extraction.

Consider the following: find out who is in charge of the police in your region. Tell him that you are concerned with the protection of your body and your property. Tell him that you feel you can get better protection from another agency. And because of this you want to opt out of the service the state provides. Ofcourse you would stop paying taxes and would have an enormous amount of money to use for security. How do you think the high ranking police officer will respond?

Or:
You are smoking marijuana on your porch. A police car drives by and they pick up the scent. What happens?

hmkpoker
10-17-2006, 01:06 PM
To anyone that is arguing for the influence of genetics in the GLF, consider any major invention or discovery.

Let's take the first man to make fire as an example. Perhaps he figured the discovery out from a long, painful logical process, or through trial and error, or through dumb luck. Let's even suppose that he was, by genetic mutation, endowed with an intellect that far surpassed everyone else.

Fire was clearly useful to civilization. Fire offered heat, light, and protection from predators. Food could be burned of its impurities. Surely anyone interested in living longer or better would want to know how to make fire.

The moment he demonstrated his discovery, at once this new, precious information began replicating itself in the minds of all the viewers. It if reasonable to believe that, within the near-future of that event, other humans began copying this discovery. Any one who rehearsed it enough could then show others how to do it. No one's DNA had to change to accomodate a "fire-building" gene. It wasn't even necessary that the inventor survived to pass on his genes; he could just as well have ben burned at the first stake, and fire would still have remained on the face of the earth forever, and instantaneously provided a survival advantage that would have taken evolution eons to rival.

It is unreasonable to beleive that, had the idea been presented ten thousand years earlier, the witnesses would not have been able to learn fire making and spread the knowledge in much the same fashion; we were simply at a waiting point, sitting around for an idea to strike and rapidly spread its advantages throughout civilization. In the last 500 years technology has exploded, yet anyone from 500 years ago born today would be fully capable of understanding it just as we do.

Social norms can exist in much the same way. Someone can propose and explain his ideas for a social policy, explain its benefits and detriments, and win followers. Said norms will obviously impact civilization (for better or worse), and can do so without the requirement of a new genetic component.

We humans are currently genetically capable of untold wonders; it is simply a matter of waiting for those wonders to be introduced.

Nielsio
10-17-2006, 01:14 PM
[ QUOTE ]
To anyone that is arguing for the influence of genetics in the GLF, consider any major invention or discovery.

Let's take the first man to make fire as an example. Perhaps he figured the discovery out from a long, painful logical process, or through trial and error, or through dumb luck. Let's even suppose that he was, by genetic mutation, endowed with an intellect that far surpassed everyone else.

Fire was clearly useful to civilization. Fire offered heat, light, and protection from predators. Food could be burned of its impurities. Surely anyone interested in living longer or better would want to know how to make fire.

The moment he demonstrated his discovery, at once this new, precious information began replicating itself in the minds of all the viewers. It if reasonable to believe that, within the near-future of that event, other humans began copying this discovery. Any one who rehearsed it enough could then show others how to do it. No one's DNA had to change to accomodate a "fire-building" gene. It wasn't even necessary that the inventor survived to pass on his genes; he could just as well have ben burned at the first stake, and fire would still have remained on the face of the earth forever, and instantaneously provided a survival advantage that would have taken evolution eons to rival.

It is unreasonable to beleive that, had the idea been presented ten thousand years earlier, the witnesses would not have been able to learn fire making and spread the knowledge in much the same fashion; we were simply at a waiting point, sitting around for an idea to strike and rapidly spread its advantages throughout civilization. In the last 500 years technology has exploded, yet anyone from 500 years ago born today would be fully capable of understanding it just as we do.

Social norms can exist in much the same way. Someone can propose and explain his ideas for a social policy, explain its benefits and detriments, and win followers. Said norms will obviously impact civilization (for better or worse), and can do so without the requirement of a new genetic component.

We humans are currently genetically capable of untold wonders; it is simply a matter of waiting for those wonders to be introduced.

[/ QUOTE ]


Like Hoppe says: the human mind and hands are specialized in being not specialized.

madnak
10-17-2006, 01:22 PM
I think there's a feedback process between biology and culture. The proportions have been distorted since the explosion of technology, but prior to agriculture, at least, I think social advancements and biological advancments probably encouraged one another. As society become more sophisticated, attributes like intelligence and communication became more fit, and as the general level of intelligence and communication increased, memes were able to propagate at a faster rate.

Borodog
10-17-2006, 01:25 PM
[ QUOTE ]
AH-HA!
I don't know what did it, but something you wrote there made something click. As I recall, Diamond's great leap forward had to do with farming. When people figured out that they could cultivate wild plants by planting seeds and returning to the same place the next year, they eventually stopped wandering and stayed in one place as full time cultivators. In turn, the planting of certain types of plants which appealed to game made the game come to them.

[/ QUOTE ]

This happened almost 30,000 years after the Great Leap Forward. It has nothing to do with what I'm talking about.

[ QUOTE ]
I think this is what you want to take on when you talk about property being part of the Great Leap Forward. Not ownership of things, per se, because as you argued capital goods were produced for a million years. Ownership of tools must have been around for some time by this period.

[/ QUOTE ]

No offense, but did you even read what I wrote? /images/graemlins/confused.gif

[ QUOTE ]
I suppose that it is possible for a tool maker to wander around making tools out of available materials without the conscious realization of the tools implications. Chimpanzees make and use tools to extract termites from their nests in the wild. The Chimpanzees do not carry around a tool kit of termite extractors, however, they simply disgard them and make more later. I suppose a protohuman might be capable of making a stone tool and then recreating it again and again after disgarding it once its purpose has been fulfilled.

[/ QUOTE ]

That's not what I said at all, in any way, shape, or form, and not even close. I said that when people don't tend to respect your property even when you are not actively defending it, there is no incentive to create anything but the most rudimentary tools that can be carried on your person. Why invest the time when they are just going to be stolen at the first oppotunity? The absence of this one facet of modern human behavior guarantees that civilization will be permanently stuck in a paleolithic level of culture. Our ancestors did not have it, like chimps and gorillas do not. We do. That means we got it sometime since our line split from theirs. There is a place in the archaelogical record where human culture is suddenly transformed from a million years of Paleolithic stagnation to a flowering evidenced by far more time invested in the manufacture of valuable goods, tools, art, flutes, etc. Again, no one would invest the time making these things if they're going to be immediately stolen. The obvious implication is that this phase change came about because people began to respect other people's property claims.

[ QUOTE ]
Clearly, it isn't ownership of tools you need to approach, but ownership of land. If a human or group of humans owns land and defends land because of the presence of game or crops, than the concept of not mine but yours becomes extremely important, as opposed to being applied to objects.

[/ QUOTE ]

Again, this has nothing to do with the Great Leap Forward that I'm talking about. This happened almost 30,000 years later.

[ QUOTE ]

Then, once ownership of land by a certain group has been established, systems of collective defense of that territory and collective labor for the production of the lands yield can be put in place. Wha - la. You have civilization, with the concept of property rights being the key impetus. (I rock, too.)

[/ QUOTE ]

This has all already been explained, see for example Hans-Hermann Hoppe.

tolbiny
10-17-2006, 02:02 PM
[ QUOTE ]

The moment he demonstrated his discovery, at once this new, precious information began replicating itself in the minds of all the viewers. It if reasonable to believe that, within the near-future of that event, other humans began copying this discovery. Any one who rehearsed it enough could then show others how to do it. No one's DNA had to change to accomodate a "fire-building" gene. It wasn't even necessary that the inventor survived to pass on his genes; he could just as well have ben burned at the first stake, and fire would still have remained on the face of the earth forever, and instantaneously provided a survival advantage that would have taken evolution eons to rival.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yep. One of the most important traits of succesful animals is their ability to mimic those who are successful. Its why kids follow you around imitating you or believe staunchly in anything you tell them. Animals that can look at someone successful and say i'll do what he does will likely be succesful as well.

Borodog
10-17-2006, 02:35 PM
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

Then, once ownership of land by a certain group has been established, systems of collective defense of that territory and collective labor for the production of the lands yield can be put in place. Wha - la. You have civilization, with the concept of property rights being the key impetus. (I rock, too.)

[/ QUOTE ]

This has all already been explained, see for example Hans-Hermann Hoppe.

[/ QUOTE ]

The Spread of Humans Around the World: The Extension and Intensification of the Division of Labor

http://www.mises.org/multimedia/mp3/hoppe/2.mp3

Rduke55
10-17-2006, 03:01 PM
[ QUOTE ]
According to data not much publicized there are race differences in cranial capacity.

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't want to get this thread off on a tangent. We've done this debate quite a bit here and that statement is not supported by then overwhelming majority of scientists studying brain evolution (cue Rushton citation).

(And even if it were, as another poster pointed out, the old brains still fall within the margin.)

[ QUOTE ]
It is like the extension of nature vs nurture debate by the way and as we know most expert believe that their ratio is about 70:30.

[/ QUOTE ]

Citation?

guesswest
10-17-2006, 03:04 PM
A statist model does value property rights, it just doesn't value them absolutely as in an AC model. Specifically it maintains that other concerns can supersede personal property rights, normally partially. The vast majority of our law concerns property rights - the fact that they can be superseded by other concerns under certain circumstances is in no way the same thing as them not being valued at all. In any event, if you want to continue this conversation I'm going to suggest you start a new thread because I don't want to derail this one.

Borodog
10-17-2006, 03:07 PM
Rduke55,

Comments on the OP? I have a new, clarified draft if you'd like it.

Rduke55
10-17-2006, 03:26 PM
[ QUOTE ]
Rduke55,

Comments on the OP? I have a new, clarified draft if you'd like it.

[/ QUOTE ]

I like it. Which is saying a lot since I was initially prepared for an AC manifesto so I was in a negative frame of mind.
I have to reread it (or PM the new copy to me) because there are a couple of things I'm uncomfortable with. Things like group ownership, indirect fitness, social debt,a nd punishment of cheaters that may play a role in a lot of the things you are talking about.
And I like the other poster's idea of ownership and agrculture in this regard.

I'm sleep deprived and have a hungry baby waking up so my brain is not at 100% right now so I'll need to revisit it.

Borodog
10-17-2006, 03:38 PM
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Rduke55,

Comments on the OP? I have a new, clarified draft if you'd like it.

[/ QUOTE ]

I like it. Which is saying a lot since I was initially prepared for an AC manifesto so I was in a negative frame of mind.
I have to reread it (or PM the new copy to me) because there are a couple of things I'm uncomfortable with. Things like group ownership,

[/ QUOTE ]

While I didn't address it in the article, there is nothing in the theory that precludes group ownership, as far as I can tell.

[ QUOTE ]
indirect fitness, social debt,

[/ QUOTE ]

You'll have to explain these to me; I'm out of my depth on those.

[ QUOTE ]
and punishment of cheaters that may play a role in a lot of the things you are talking about.

[/ QUOTE ]

That sounds exactly like what I'm talking about with the "Backed-Up Tit For Tat" (I'm sure there must be a name for this; it's very obvious, it must already be known).

[ QUOTE ]
And I like the other poster's idea of ownership and agrculture in this regard.

[/ QUOTE ]

It's great, but it's already well known (at least amongst Austrians), and happened 30,000 years later. I'm interested specifically in the transition to the Upper Paleolithic.

[ QUOTE ]
I'm sleep deprived and have a hungry baby waking up so my brain is not at 100% right now so I'll need to revisit it.

[/ QUOTE ]

No problem.

Darryl_P
10-17-2006, 06:21 PM
I assume you're not terribly interested in my opinion, but just in case...

I think it's factually and logically sound, and if it's marketed right, I don't see why it couldn't get official recognition as original scientific work...

but imagine the irony if a state-funded institution or organization were to officially applaud it as an important discovery -- they would be acknowledging that the respect of others' property rights is the key to man becoming civilized on one hand, while making their living from the systematic violation of property rights on the other. /images/graemlins/shocked.gif

Rduke55
10-18-2006, 09:13 PM
OK, now I've slept for a night and thought more about this.
As I said before, I liked it, but there was something in the back of my mind when I was reading it.
Now I realized what it was. I don't think that the leap you are talking about was due to your specific concept of property, although it is easy to imagine that it was one of the results of the leap. I (actually many scientists) think that a major leap (and it is a candidate for the great leap) is the advent of the theory of mind and the ability to handle multiple orders of intentionality (or intensionality - depending on which paper it is).
Basically the idea of other people having beliefs, thoughts, desires, emotions, etc. different from your own.

With this leap, the ideas you mentioned (and advances due to them) become possible but I think the property stuff is clearly dependent on a bigger leap.

Borodog
10-18-2006, 09:28 PM
No, no, that jibes totally. Is absolutely PERFECT in fact.

That's simply the mechanism that I left blank (note that I didn't speculate on what caused the "Persistence of Yours"). Not stealing other's stuff because you empathize with them and realize they don't want their stuff stolen any more than you want your stuff stolen, is just the thing.

All of the physical effects on capital and liesure goods that is preserved in the archaeological record still depends on the property angle, because it is still true that you are less likely to invest in creating more complex goods if they are more likely to be stolen. You've just given me the mechanism that reduces the likelihood of it being stolen in the first place. It's the property thing that gets them out of the stagnant paleolithic. Whether or not the change in brain chemistry/anatomy/whatever is "bigger" is just semantics.

Thoughts?

Also, can you provide me with some citations on those theories?

Also, do you know of any genetic disorders that cause people to be, for lack of a better term, unempathic? Like a disorder that cause kleptomania among other negative social behaviors? Because if there were, and you could find the mutation that causes it, and you could compare that gene in humans to say, the great apes, and look at non-coding stuff in the area of that gene and date a change to the right order of magnitude, I would [censored] myself.

But that's probably too much to hope for.

hmkpoker
10-18-2006, 09:51 PM
Rduke-

What are the biological requirements for supporting a theory of mind? How far apart do you think the advent of the theory was from the advent of those requirements?

The ideas presented here seem to suggest that the brain evolved very slowly, but by the time it was ready to support simple theories (understanding of "you" or "yours"), the more complex theories (relativity, economics, computers) were just a hop skip and a jump away. It's as though computers evolved phenomenally powerful hardware but ran pong the whole time, then suddenly there was a software explosion and these powerful computers found themselves running high-end CGI programs.

Borodog
10-18-2006, 10:05 PM
When selection pressures are strong, evolutionary change can occur startlingly fast, especially among small populations. Look at the pygmi elephants that went from normal elephant size to the size of large dogs in about a thousand years after they became isolated on an island.

I think that the selective advantage conferred by language must be tremendous. I think it would evolve as fast as the genetic variability required could arise.

I think the same is true of the "multiple orders of intentionality", the selective advantage conferred solely from the accumulation of capital goods would select for this trait very strongly. I think especially so in the social structures of the time, small tribes where everyone knows everyone.

Rduke55
10-18-2006, 10:38 PM
[ QUOTE ]
No, no, that jibes totally. Is absolutely PERFECT in fact.

That's simply the mechanism that I left blank (note that I didn't speculate on what caused the "Persistence of Yours"). Not stealing other's stuff because you empathize with them and realize they don't want their stuff stolen any more than you want your stuff stolen, is just the thing.

All of the physical effects on capital and liesure goods that is preserved in the archaeological record still depends on the property angle, because it is still true that you are less likely to invest in creating more complex goods if they are more likely to be stolen. You've just given me the mechanism that reduces the likelihood of it being stolen in the first place. It's the property thing that gets them out of the stagnant paleolithic. Whether or not the change in brain chemistry/anatomy/whatever is "bigger" is just semantics.

Thoughts?

Also, can you provide me with some citations on those theories?

Also, do you know of any genetic disorders that cause people to be, for lack of a better term, unempathic? Like a disorder that cause kleptomania among other negative social behaviors? Because if there were, and you could find the mutation that causes it, and you could compare that gene in humans to say, the great apes, and look at non-coding stuff in the area of that gene and date a change to the right order of magnitude, I would [censored] myself.

But that's probably too much to hope for.


[/ QUOTE ]

Yeah, I guess my problem was that the ToM, etc. allowed a bunch of other social, linguistic, etc. developments as well that may be bigger in the grand scheme of things than property. This is where you're going to run into opposition in publishing I would imagine because they will tell you that these developments amost certainly preceded property in your sense. I'll have to revisit the literature.

I have to run, and I'll get to your citations and HMK's post tomorrow, but the disorder famous for exhibiting lack of empathy is autism (but I think they are rarely criminals).

hmkpoker
10-18-2006, 11:19 PM
[ QUOTE ]

I think that the selective advantage conferred by language must be tremendous. I think it would evolve as fast as the genetic variability required could arise.

[/ QUOTE ]

Interesting point. I never thought of that.