Believing in God In Your Youth

[KUJustin]

I'm interested in getting as many perspectives as possible on this as it's something I've been giving a lot of thought.

Did you believe in God (or a higher power) as a child, if so, when did you stop believing (I know for most this was a gradual process, so feel free to walk us through it).

I know that as a pre-teen/teen I was extremely skeptical as to the existence of a higher power to the point that you could possibly call me an atheist. Prior to that though it seems like I either just had an innate sense of a higher power or the evidence of His creation was too overwhelming for me to deny. Obviously I was also exposed to the idea of a God before I was old enough to remember it so that surely played some role.

A bonus curiousity I have is I wonder if you raised chilren in isolation of the mention of a higher power if they would develop (or begin with) a belief in one anyway. Obviously that would be an extremely difficult experiment (would have to be either in near total isolation with your family or at least in a very different culture).

[madnak]

I believed in God as a child, and that ended relatively abruptly at the age of 14 (when I started to actually think about religion).

[MidGe]

Same here... about 13-14 to shed my faith in christianity. Earlier in the case of father xmas. Probably mid thirties by the time I had managed to undo all of the christian education effect, and that took a lot of work.

[Darryl_P]

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A bonus curiousity I have is I wonder if you raised chilren in isolation of the mention of a higher power if they would develop (or begin with) a belief in one anyway.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is pretty much how I was raised. At home there was never any mention of anything remotely religious, except a nutty old nanny I had for a while whose words I never took seriously. The schools I went to were culturally diverse and totally secular. There was very little mention of God or religion pretty much everywhere I went.

Up until the age of 30 or so I thought all religious people were wackos.

Then I became a wacko myself in my own unique way (through a mid-life crisis type period with depression, lots of meditation, a major career shift and a divorce) and now I see atheists as people in denial. I still think the religious folk are wackos in a lot of ways, but not in the most fundamental way.

[FortunaMaximus]

Easter Bunny, Santa, God. I think shedding those beliefs were necessary before I was allowed to enter puberty.

<shrugs> I'm re-questioning the whole ultimate observer thing. But that's more along the lines of boredom and not a real need to establish a deadman's switch for my existence.

[bunny]

I was raised by passionate atheists and always adopted the view that religious people were ignorant of science and too insecure to accept the world as it is.

The anti-religion feeling in my family is very strong (I have no relatives even amongst my extended family who share my belief in God) and this was something I adopted without conscious thought. I doubt very much that someone raised in that environment would be a believer.

[kurto]

I was raised Lutheran. I was an acolyte, Sunday school, confirmation classes... the works.

I remember being in a Sunday School class where we were supposed to debate something (the specifics are gone... this is decades ago) and I was supposed to argue the NON-Biblical side. I remember finding it pretty easy.

I also remember my brother afterwards mocking me for not-believing. (We must have been like 12 and 14) Though I was not an atheist then, it was the first time I remember being mocked for challenging something in religion. I remember being confused that the other side didn't convince me that I was wrong.

I remember having Jewish friends of the family when we were young. (this is still jr high-ish) I remember my mom telling us not to discuss religion with them. I remember her telling us that they would go to hell. (Oddly enough, it wasn't like a mean thing... it was just like the secret truth we were supposed to ignore) I remember really starting to question that something was wrong with this picture. (Not just the religions, but how you were supposed to know this about your friends but ignore the giant elephant in the room)

Anyhoo... I remember having faith wane as I got older... by the end of high school I think I felt wishy-washy about the whole thing.

The other key 'problem' I remember was that my parents (I should say my Mother) were teaching me that it was important that I study all my academics... focus on math, science, etc. I was taught to question the world. That the answers were out there. Yet on Sunday I was supposed to NOT question anything and just accept it, even if it made no sense.

It was really in college when history, science, logic and philosophy... but particularly history where I really came to the conclusion that it was all bunk. Learning the history of religions in general and the way Christianity came about in particular... Somewhere in those last years of college it really came together for me and I finally articulated that I was definitely an atheist.

I don't think it was until many years after college that I could admit to my family that I was an atheist.

It was definitely a gradual thing though... doubt fostered young and then a decade and a half or so of searching and studying.

[dandy_don]

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Did you believe in God (or a higher power) as a child

[/ QUOTE ]

I was raised in a somewhat religious environment. My parents weren't "every Sunday" type Christians, but we were members and did things such as bless dinner on most occassions. It caught on with me and my brother when we became involved in a youth group in our early teens and have been involved since. That is not to say that I have been in the church every time the doors were opend or that there weren't periods of backsliding--it happens.

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I know that as a pre-teen/teen I was extremely skeptical as to the existence of a higher power to the point that you could possibly call me an atheist.

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't know anyone that hasn't question their beliefs because it is a hard sell, particularly during your teen years. That's the time in your life when you are trying to figure out who you are, why you are here and what direction is life going to take you.

How does anyone explain a "belief" that is entirely based upon faith? We are asked to step out of the boat in the stormy seas and walk across the water, when all common sense says that we will sink to the bottom of the sea. Human nature always wants hard evidence, but that's just not going to happen.

dandy

[hmkpoker]

I had a problem with the concept that only Christians go to heaven when I was 6-8 years old, because this suggests that God is inherently unfair (someone born to an aboriginial family is NOT going to be exposed to Christianity). Never bought the whole "god reveals himself to everyone" thing. Became interested in reincarnation and eastern beliefs around 14/15 or so, eventually lost interest and atheized around 20/21.

[txag007]

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I'm interested in getting as many perspectives as possible on this as it's something I've been giving a lot of thought.


[/ QUOTE ]
The responses to the OP are interesting because the Bible says in Romans 1 that we are all born with a knowledge of God but suppress this truth in our unrighteousness.

21For although they knew God, they neither glorified him as God nor gave thanks to him, but their thinking became futile and their foolish hearts were darkened. 22Although they claimed to be wise, they became fools 23and exchanged the glory of the immortal God for images made to look like mortal man and birds and animals and reptiles.
Romans 1:21-23

[kurto]

Its more interesting that anyone thinks what the Bible says about this is meaningful.

[bocablkr]

Have never believed in god for even one millisecond of my life...

[Cue-Ball 66]

As a youth I imagine I just believed whatever I was told. My mother tells me a story about how we were walking across the road one day and I said to her about how it didn't matter if I got hit by a car because I'd just be born again anyway.

She pulled me out of the Scripture class at Primary School immediately. They had an alternative class where you learned about all the different religions in the world. That's probably when I realised they were all a great big load.

[Prodigy54321]

I was raised with Christian parents, but I don't remember ever going to church..basically because my parents weren't fans of organized religion..but I guess they believed/believe in God and Jesus because that's what they were taught...they don't believe that the bible is the inerrant word of god, or even that people who do not accept jesus as their savior don't get into heaven..that seems unjust to them...go figure

I would like to say even if I were raised in a more religious household, my reason would still have won out and I would have become an atheist anyway, but I don't know that I would have

EDIT: as for how I became an atheist, I'm not quite sure actually, I just can't remember exactly how it happened..I remember being very skeptical of religion and faith when I was about 12..I could never wrap myself around why everyone looks back at the greeks, egyptians, etc and dismiss their religions so easily as fairy tales..as if christianity isn't just as ridiculous..I remember telling another kid in class that I didn't believe in god (probably didn't even know the word atheist at that time) since I could see no proof or even evidence that he exists...that kid teased me as if I was the crazy one..thus my lack of respect for theists or believers in the supernatural was born

[kurto]

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I could never wrap myself around why everyone looks back at the greeks, egyptians, etc and dismiss their religions so easily as fairy tales..as if christianity isn't just as ridiculous..

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Basically this is as true today as when you were 12. The only difference between those religions and Christianity (or any other currently practiced religion) is none of the Zeus worshippers are around to say how you can't deny the existence of Zeus unless you have a clean heart or to quote scripture.

[FortunaMaximus]

Guess the Christians learned how to tame lions. Oh, well.

[Lestat]

As one who grew up in a Catholic household and attended CCD, etc., it's really just a matter of coming to your senses and realizing that a god is no different than a santa clause.

I'll admit, it's a very chilling revelation to make as it means you're whole world immediately changes. I think there are many people who can't accept such a drastic change to a worldview that they've clung to since childhood. Hence, they continue denying what they surely suspect is the truth.

[benjdm]

I can't recall ever believing. I was raised Catholic through Confirmation but I was an extremely passive kid and kept my opinions to myself. I also remember listening to how confession was supposed to work and Jesus' teaching about giving away all your possessions and following him to go to heaven, looking around at the people who claimed to believe these things, and realizing they didn't really believe it either. It was like it was some kind of unwritten 'wink, wink' social convention to me.

[madnak]

Salvation (http://www.courses.vcu.edu/ENG200-dwc/hughes.htm)

[AthenianStranger]

[ QUOTE ]
I was raised by passionate atheists and always adopted the view that religious people were ignorant of science and too insecure to accept the world as it is.

The anti-religion feeling in my family is very strong (I have no relatives even amongst my extended family who share my belief in God) and this was something I adopted without conscious thought. I doubt very much that someone raised in that environment would be a believer.

[/ QUOTE ]

Same for me, except my mother was always Catholic and my father was an atheist. I was pretty much raised by my atheist siblings however and sharted your feelings about the ignorance of religious people. My father has since become a Christian (at over 50, after I left the house).

Funny how everyone saw the light and made their decisions to not believe in God/be agnostic at the ages of 13-18. Not the age to which we would normally ascribe well-thought out rational decisions. It is just the opposite, in fact. Kid thinks everyone should take him seriously; he's an adult, etc., but he's just a stupid kid rebelling at what makes him uncomfortable. Of course you don't want to go to church, it's not entertaining. Later in life he ascribes this to his abnormal adolescent brilliance, wherein he was able to escape the traps of religious ignorance set by his parents at such an early age. Later in life he realizes that his parents were right about a lot of things and comes to respect them, understand that they went through a lot of the same experiences, but he never attributes this same realization to his understanding of religion.

[surftheiop]

I never really gave much thought to God until 9th grade ,since then i have been living in relationship with him and I regret those first 13 years before i believed in God.

[txag007]

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Salvation (http://www.courses.vcu.edu/ENG200-dwc/hughes.htm)

[/ QUOTE ]
Lol. Sounds like a southern baptist church!

It's actually a great illustration of how you cannot become saved by believing what other people tell you. You can only become saved by believing what the Holy Spirit tells you. Believers cannot bring other people to Christ, either. They can only plant the seed and allow God to sow it in his perfect time.

[FortunaMaximus]

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Believers cannot bring other people to Christ, either. They can only plant the seed and allow God to sow it in his perfect time.

[/ QUOTE ]

Reproduce more, please. It's a noble faith, and would be better served by more of you and less of fire and brimstone fellows. No sarcasm here for once.

[John21]

First came Bulfinch's Mythology; then ancient history; and finally Nietzsche. After that most religious claims lost all validity in my mind. But for some reason, or lack thereof, I've always believed in a God or Creator, despite a basic, albiet slight, abhorrence to religion.

[KUJustin]

[ QUOTE ]
it's really just a matter of coming to your senses and realizing that a god is no different than a santa clause.

I'll admit, it's a very chilling revelation to make as it means you're whole world immediately changes. I think there are many people who can't accept such a drastic change to a worldview that they've clung to since childhood. Hence, they continue denying what they surely suspect is the truth.

[/ QUOTE ]

Funny that you use that example as I had the exact same revelation at around age 10. I've had subsequent revelations that speak to the opposite however.

[ QUOTE ]
Reproduce more, please. It's a noble faith, and would be better served by more of you and less of fire and brimstone fellows. No sarcasm here for once.

[/ QUOTE ]

I'd be careful about reading too much into his statement. Fire and brimstone can be a seed just as easily as anything else. If your religion tells you to spread the news to all and tells you that those who don't believe will suffer (in whatever form) for eternity, then only the most selfish people would err on the side of not offending anyone.

[MidGe]

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Funny that you use that example as I had the exact same revelation at around age 10. I've had subsequent revelations that speak to the opposite however.

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Good there is hope then that you will get more/newer revelations to set things right again!

[ QUOTE ]
I'd be careful about reading too much into his statement. Fire and brimstone can be a seed just as easily as anything else. If your religion tells you to spread the news to all and tells you that those who don't believe will suffer (in whatever form) for eternity, then only the most selfish people would err on the side of not offending anyone.


[/ QUOTE ]

And I call that attitude harassment when it is directed at me, whether on the footpath, or the airways. It is pure aggression on the believers part and is extrememly obnoxious. Keep it to your church, don't bring it out wasting the time of people that have better things to do that listen to your childish and grotesques rants.

[Turn Prophet]

I was raised Catholic, with 13 years of Catholic school and Mass attendance every Sunday until I moved out around the age of 19. However, I never accepted Catholicism as it was presented to me growing up, and I always thought religion in general to be somewhat of a joke. However, not wishing to cause myself undue nagging by the folks, I marched in lock step with the congregation, I worked as an altar server, lector, etc...

I had a brief bout of religious experience and a theistic stint following a rough patch in my life and a consequent high school retreat at the age of 17. However, toward the end of high school, I picked up Ayn Rand, remembered why I thought religion was stupid, realised that I had been brainwashed, and said good-bye to religion and theism forever. I got into philosophy, then promptly realised that objectivism was stupid as well, and became a critical and philosophical agnostic.

However, I do not hold as big of a grudge toward religion per se, and plan to teach at my old Catholic high school because they pay well and provide a positive environment for students and teachers. If people want to believe, that's fine. I just hope more people can become critical thinkers.

[agent_fish]

I grew up in a very religous pentecostal family. I remembering asking my mom questions about religion and God like where did God come from and things like that. She always gave me unsatisfactory answers.

When I was in high school, I asked where did dinosaur fossils come from in one of my church bible study sessions. I was told that we don't talk about stuff like that. I was like WTF? Why can't we talk about that?

In college I started reading the Fark.com forums where there are lots of atheists. At first they kind of pissed me off, but after a while I began to think their arguments were better than the zealots arguments. I then took a philosophy class my sophomore year, and one day during this period I just kind of realized I was an atheist.

[KUJustin]

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Funny that you use that example as I had the exact same revelation at around age 10. I've had subsequent revelations that speak to the opposite however.

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Good there is hope then that you will get more/newer revelations to set things right again

[/ QUOTE ]

Actually there's not much hope on that front.

There's an analogy that describes it pretty well that you may have heard:

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Let's say you're going to the office to see if your boss is in. You see his car in the parking lot. You ask the secretary if he's in, and she says, 'Yes, I just spoke with him.' You see light from under his office door. You listen and hear his voice on the telephone. On the basis of all this evidence, you have good grounds for concluding that your boss is in his office.

But you could do something quite different. You could go to the door and knock on it and meet the boss face-to-face. At that point, the evidence of the car in the parking lot, the secretary's testimony, the light under the door, the voice on the telephone - all of that would still be valid, but it would take a secondary role, because now you've met the boss face-to-face.

[/ QUOTE ]

I've met the creator and even if I desperately wanted to I couldn't deny Him now because I've experienced the truth. I still stay mindful of the things like the car in the parking lot, or the secretary's word for the sake of those who haven't met the boss, but in realyity they have little consequence for me because I no longer have to (or even get to) rely on these clues.

[madnak]

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Funny how everyone saw the light and made their decisions to not believe in God/be agnostic at the ages of 13-18. Not the age to which we would normally ascribe well-thought out rational decisions. It is just the opposite, in fact. Kid thinks everyone should take him seriously; he's an adult, etc., but he's just a stupid kid rebelling at what makes him uncomfortable. Of course you don't want to go to church, it's not entertaining. Later in life he ascribes this to his abnormal adolescent brilliance, wherein he was able to escape the traps of religious ignorance set by his parents at such an early age. Later in life he realizes that his parents were right about a lot of things and comes to respect them, understand that they went through a lot of the same experiences, but he never attributes this same realization to his understanding of religion.

[/ QUOTE ]

Of course a 50-year-old is better qualified to consider such questions than a 13-year-old. But a 13-year-old is sufficiently qualified to answer this question. And honestly, the level of debate from teenagers to adults doesn't typically evolve much. Some adults manage to envision a synthetic God, rather than the piecemeal God most people today accept. That is, a God that is savage as well as kind, and that represents the most horrible things as well as the most beautiful things. A God, in fact, that can be no other way. (I don't mean to suggest here a God that is neither good nor evil, nor that has dual aspects) With such a God the level of discourse can rise above the norm. But more often it's the same arguments around again, more refined but unchanged.

You yourself said that according to pure reason, atheism is the correct conclusion (major paraphrase, feel free to clarify if I'm misinterpreting). And, according to you, it's the "heart" that matters. So this reasoning about age isn't very valid - the mind and the heart will both become better-developed with age, but it's largely the relative emphasis, rather than the specific level of development, that determines one's position. I have other ideas on the heart/mind process of decision-making, but they're tangential.

And my parents have been wrong about plenty. One thing I do admire about them is their ability to admit when they're wrong. It's for that reason they're still growing - rather than clinging to the ideals they grew up with, they've revised them. And at any rate, it would be shameful if I, at their age, didn't know more than they do. Even if I were half as smart as my father, I should know twice as much as he did at my age. Given the new ease of communication, with the Internet etc, and the advances over the last 26 years in every field, I'd have to be downright lazy not to. Dad did very well given what he had available - but I have more knowledge at my fingertips. And if, as some people suggest, human understanding is really progressing at an exponential rate, then the thinkers being born today should know much more than I ever will by the time they die. Taking your "respect the parents" ideal to its logical conclusion, I should believe exactly what my ancestors believed 1000 years ago.

One interesting thing I'm noticing is that the trends here are the reverse of what I'd expect. Ordinarily the atheists I meet were raised outside of a religious context, and the Christians I meet were raised within a religious context. So why, on this forum, did the atheists grow up religious and vice versa? Maybe gamblers are more independent than most?

[madnak]

Eh. The boss could be a shapeshifting alien, an artifact of the Matrix, the result of plastic surgery...

Really, there is no end to inquiry.

[FortunaMaximus]

[ QUOTE ]
Reproduce more, please. It's a noble faith, and would be better served by more of you and less of fire and brimstone fellows. No sarcasm here for once.

[/ QUOTE ]

[ QUOTE ]
I'd be careful about reading too much into his statement. Fire and brimstone can be a seed just as easily as anything else. If your religion tells you to spread the news to all and tells you that those who don't believe will suffer (in whatever form) for eternity, then only the most selfish people would err on the side of not offending anyone.

[/ QUOTE ]

Ah, I took that statement as coming from somebody who will advertise his faith but will not aggressively shoot down anyone who has interest in debating the relative merits. I said that coming relatively fresh from a discussion with Bluff in another thread that ended with "Yes, but the one faith is the true faith, all else are wrong." in regards with Catholicism. <weary sigh> Suppose I should've known better.

Offense, whether intentional or accidental, will always be a result of a proactive approach. And in this case, I like the moderation of the approach, what churches used to be. Doors were always open, priests sat and listened to you without trying to convince you of the merits and advantages of their church.

It's a depressing age to live in when a huge organization has the resources and the infrastructure to bring so much good change, and yet insists on pomp and circumstance and politics.

My best friend is a steadfast Catholic, and I realize this may be a incidental effect of 15 years of friendship and he might be somewhat used to my penchant for argumentative debates. But never once has he hidden behind the adage that says his church is right and that's all there is to it. And I don't try to convince him that Christianity is bunk in its whole form. Also, Christianity is very well entrenched in a lot of the population, and getting rid of it is not an option. Bringing it down to its necessary humility may be the best course of action, and the way to do that is not to throw them to lions. They seem to get stronger for direct attacks on them.

[FortunaMaximus]

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Eh. The boss could be a shapeshifting alien, an artifact of the Matrix, the result of plastic surgery...

Really, there is no end to inquiry.

[/ QUOTE ]

One should hope there isn't.

[KUJustin]

[ QUOTE ]
Offense, whether intentional or accidental, will always be a result of a proactive approach. And in this case, I like the moderation of the approach, what churches used to be. Doors were always open, priests sat and listened to you without trying to convince you of the merits and advantages of their church.

It's a depressing age to live in when a huge organization has the resources and the infrastructure to bring so much good change, and yet insists on pomp and circumstance and politics.

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm inclined to think most Christians agree with the above (though my sample is probably skewed).

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The boss could be a shapeshifting alien, an artifact of the Matrix, the result of plastic surgery...

Really, there is no end to inquiry.

[/ QUOTE ]

Having walked into work and met with a boss face-to-face hundreds of times, none of these have ever crossed my mind. At that point the inquiry would shift to "who is he?" rather than "is he?"

[AthenianStranger]

Sorry for not quoting, but you wrote a lot and I don't know what I am responding to specifically, except maybe this:

[ QUOTE ]
Even if I were half as smart as my father, I should know twice as much as he did at my age. Given the new ease of communication, with the Internet etc, and the advances over the last 26 years in every field, I'd have to be downright lazy not to.

[/ QUOTE ]

It just seems like you have so much faith in the wealth of information to produce wisdom, or at least knowledge in individuals. Have you considered that most of the Internet is pronography and other degenerate things, or even wrong information, stupid blogs, personal pages, shopping etc. Perhaps we have more access to info., but maybe we don't know how to use it, or find it.

Second, you should consider that the scientific progress has worked in such a way that individuals know less than they used to; the knowledge is contained in the whole of the enterprise, while on the particular level it is highly fragmented, specialized, etc. If you pursued every scientific development just in a few fields, you would not have time for anything else, let alone the endeavor of innovative science of your own. I suggest you read Francis Bacon's Novum Organum. The time of Renaissance men, who were masters of most every field of knowledge is over, and the top thinkers know less and less; they are more specialized and consequently more ignorant of the whole body of knowledge.

Finally: you're a college freshman. Unless you took two years off to 'find yourself,' you're still basically under the influence of the adolescent narcissism I was talking about. You do write better than the average college freshman, and perhaps you do have a sharp mind. But there are kinds of understanding of which you just don't know, and about which I'm sure your ancestors of a millenium past would be able to school you.
</off topic discussion>

About the atheism 'conclusion,' I said that most people, when examining the facts, etc., would conclude that there is no God, and that this is a sensible conclusion. But the activity itself, of examining the existence of God in this way, is totally irrational. If God exists, He is the reason and basically the formal mode of our understanding. We cannot turn the content of that understanding back around and contain the mode, like a snake swallowing itself.

[FortunaMaximus]

[ QUOTE ]
It just seems like you have so much faith in the wealth of information to produce wisdom, or at least knowledge in individuals. Have you considered that most of the Internet is pronography and other degenerate things, or even wrong information, stupid blogs, personal pages, shopping etc. Perhaps we have more access to info., but maybe we don't know how to use it, or find it.

[/ QUOTE ]

Good post. Should've stopped right there though.

[AthenianStranger]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
It just seems like you have so much faith in the wealth of information to produce wisdom, or at least knowledge in individuals. Have you considered that most of the Internet is pronography and other degenerate things, or even wrong information, stupid blogs, personal pages, shopping etc. Perhaps we have more access to info., but maybe we don't know how to use it, or find it.

[/ QUOTE ]

Good post. Should've stopped right there though.

[/ QUOTE ]

Ha. You like it what I talk about pronography?

[FortunaMaximus]

What's good for the wolves is fodder for the sheep.

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Perhaps we have more access to info., but maybe we don't know how to use it, or find it.

[/ QUOTE ]

This pretty much sums up the differences between the ages. The structure of the brain hasn't changed. Just the tools we use.

[NeBlis]

[/ QUOTE ]

Actually there's not much hope on that front.

There's an analogy that describes it pretty well that you may have heard:

[ QUOTE ]
Let's say you're going to the office to see if your boss is in. You see his car in the parking lot. You ask the secretary if he's in, and she says, 'Yes, I just spoke with him.' You see light from under his office door. You listen and hear his voice on the telephone. On the basis of all this evidence, you have good grounds for concluding that your boss is in his office.

But you could do something quite different. You could go to the door and knock on it and meet the boss face-to-face. At that point, the evidence of the car in the parking lot, the secretary's testimony, the light under the door, the voice on the telephone - all of that would still be valid, but it would take a secondary role, because now you've met the boss face-to-face.

[/ QUOTE ]

I've met the creator and even if I desperately wanted to I couldn't deny Him now because I've experienced the truth. I still stay mindful of the things like the car in the parking lot, or the secretary's word for the sake of those who haven't met the boss, but in realyity they have little consequence for me because I no longer have to (or even get to) rely on these clues.

[/ QUOTE ]


LMAO !!! that has got to be the worst possible example. The belief in god is more akin to believing that the boss is at work even though everyone tells you he's on vacation, the parking lot is empty, it's 10:30pm on a Friday, and your working from home.

NeBlis

[MidGe]

/images/graemlins/smile.gif

[bunny]

[ QUOTE ]
One interesting thing I'm noticing is that the trends here are the reverse of what I'd expect. Ordinarily the atheists I meet were raised outside of a religious context, and the Christians I meet were raised within a religious context. So why, on this forum, did the atheists grow up religious and vice versa? Maybe gamblers are more independent than most?

[/ QUOTE ]
Generalising, of course, but I think it's more likely that people who have changed their beliefs so fundamentally feel liberated in a sense - so want to persuade people who used to be like them.

People who have always held the same belief probably consider it "obvious" or pointless to discuss.

[madnak]

[ QUOTE ]
It just seems like you have so much faith in the wealth of information to produce wisdom, or at least knowledge in individuals. Have you considered that most of the Internet is pronography

[/ QUOTE ]

The wealth of pornography currently available is one of the strongest indicators of human progress.

[ QUOTE ]
and other degenerate things, or even wrong information, stupid blogs, personal pages, shopping etc. Perhaps we have more access to info., but maybe we don't know how to use it, or find it.

[/ QUOTE ]

I do. And part of progress is that it's getting easier to find and use the information. See: Wikipedia, Google. Those two services alone could have saved people years of time and research in the relatively recent past.

[ QUOTE ]
Second, you should consider that the scientific progress has worked in such a way that individuals know less than they used to; the knowledge is contained in the whole of the enterprise, while on the particular level it is highly fragmented, specialized, etc. If you pursued every scientific development just in a few fields, you would not have time for anything else, let alone the endeavor of innovative science of your own. I suggest you read Francis Bacon's Novum Organum. The time of Renaissance men, who were masters of most every field of knowledge is over, and the top thinkers know less and less; they are more specialized and consequently more ignorant of the whole body of knowledge.

[/ QUOTE ]

No, people know less now than they did then relative to the total accumulated knowledge of mankind. That's because the total accumulated knowledge of mankind is progressing exponentially - it supports my point, it doesn't refute it. In terms of total knowledge, people definitely know more and more. Particularly smart people. As you say, I'm a freshman in college. Yet I know of advances over only the last 50 years in physics, chemistry, and biology that have shaken the foundations of science! That's to say nothing of everyday familiarities with, for example, the Internet. If I were to hop back to 1960, I, as a simple college student, would know some things that the greatest scientists would be amazed at. The concept of the Renaissance Man hasn't fallen away, it's been refined into secular humanism.

[ QUOTE ]
Finally: you're a college freshman. Unless you took two years off to 'find yourself,'

[/ QUOTE ]

8 years including high school; I'm 24.

[ QUOTE ]
you're still basically under the influence of the adolescent narcissism I was talking about.

[/ QUOTE ]

So I should shut up and listen to my elders? Yeah, I'm under the influence of adolescent narcissism. Just as I was 10 years ago. And in retrospect, many of my ideas of 10 years ago were really childish. But I can't express how glad I am that I was coming up with those ideas - that I was thinking for myself at 14. My results were crude, but I learned more from them than I ever could have learned listening to lectures. And my results may be crude now, too. But if 20 years from now I cure some disease, I'd bet anything I will credit the thinking I'm doing now. Without the independence of thought - what you might call arrogance or impertinence - I would never be able to achieve anything satisfy.

And I'll point out again that if nobody challenged their elders, we'd still be in the Stone Age. Defying the traditions and conventions of the "ancients" is why the Renaissance Man was possible in the first place. Was Rabelais just a foolish kid? Or can you respect him, because at least he's ancient now?

[ QUOTE ]
You do write better than the average college freshman, and perhaps you do have a sharp mind. But there are kinds of understanding of which you just don't know, and about which I'm sure your ancestors of a millenium past would be able to school you.

[/ QUOTE ]

Sure. And those kinds of understanding have had little lasting impact on humanity. I want to make a difference, not come to the same old understandings that everyone else comes to just by getting old. And those understandings come in time, so there's very little need for me to bother with them in the first place. And I can get more wisdom from a psychedlic than from some crotchety guy who doesn't know the meaning of the word.

[ QUOTE ]
About the atheism 'conclusion,' I said that most people, when examining the facts, etc., would conclude that there is no God, and that this is a sensible conclusion. But the activity itself, of examining the existence of God in this way, is totally irrational. If God exists, He is the reason and basically the formal mode of our understanding. We cannot turn the content of that understanding back around and contain the mode, like a snake swallowing itself.

[/ QUOTE ]

That's not true at all. Well, it's true in the sense of Eastern religion. If I am God, then of course I can't look directly at God. But if God is separate from me, and is the basis of everything, then not only should I be able to see God, but everything should lead toward him. There should be so many arrows pointing to God I wouldn't be able to take a step without finding one. And God, being the most logical being in the universe, should appear very readily in logic.

What's your basis for the prediction that if God is the basis of everything, he's inscrutable? You're really going to have to work to establish that it's irrational to consider the existence of God.

[bunny]

[ QUOTE ]
The wealth of pornography currently available is one of the strongest indicators of human progress.

[/ QUOTE ]
/images/graemlins/smile.gif
I dont know anyone else who would make this claim.

[FortunaMaximus]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
The wealth of pornography currently available is one of the strongest indicators of human progress.

[/ QUOTE ]
/images/graemlins/smile.gif
I dont know anyone else who would make this claim.

[/ QUOTE ]

Hi. He's right. People can publicly pursue their fetishes in private. Uh. Although that has more to do with a communal aspect than it does for pornography.

Sexuality has become pretty open and accessible. For the most part.

[Darryl_P]

[ QUOTE ]
Generalising, of course, but I think it's more likely that people who have changed their beliefs so fundamentally feel liberated in a sense - so want to persuade people who used to be like them.

People who have always held the same belief probably consider it "obvious" or pointless to discuss.



[/ QUOTE ]

Excellent point. My sentiments exactly.

[AthenianStranger]

[ QUOTE ]

That's not true at all. Well, it's true in the sense of Eastern religion. If I am God, then of course I can't look directly at God. But if God is separate from me, and is the basis of everything, then not only should I be able to see God, but everything should lead toward him. There should be so many arrows pointing to God I wouldn't be able to take a step without finding one. And God, being the most logical being in the universe, should appear very readily in logic.

What's your basis for the prediction that if God is the basis of everything, he's inscrutable? You're really going to have to work to establish that it's irrational to consider the existence of God.

[/ QUOTE ]

It's true in any religion. Although strictly, Christianity cannot be considered as a religion because it breaks the wall separating man from God, which is the basis of religion. Divinity becomes human, humanity becomes divine.

Especially considering Eastern Christianity, with its focus on apophatic theology, only allowing for negative attributions about God, there is no way for man to come to any positive conclusion either way with regard to God's existence. Like you said, in the world everything should point toward God, but this is only true insofar as He appears to us, not as He is in Himself, in His essence or mere existence. But even apart from these theological exercises, we can see most poignantly in Kant's Third Antinomy of Pure Reason (in the Critique of Pure Reason) that this is not something on which the human mind can positively pronounce.

Besides this, there is no reason why the faculty with which we could perceive God would be reason, and reason alone. (Unless of course one admits of no other faculty, but even the most depraved of philosophers fail to go this far.) Consider that in Chrisianity the embodiment of logic, the Logos, is a man, Jesus Christ, a human and divine person.

[bunny]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
The wealth of pornography currently available is one of the strongest indicators of human progress.

[/ QUOTE ]
/images/graemlins/smile.gif
I dont know anyone else who would make this claim.

[/ QUOTE ]

Hi. He's right. People can publicly pursue their fetishes in private. Uh. Although that has more to do with a communal aspect than it does for pornography.

Sexuality has become pretty open and accessible. For the most part.

[/ QUOTE ]
What I found particularly madnakian was his claim that it is one of the strongest indicators of human progress. I dont know anyone who has quite the same take on the world as madnak does. /images/graemlins/smile.gif

[FortunaMaximus]

Madnakian. Heh. It's not an altogether common viewpoint, anyway.

He's got a point, though. Sex, for better or for worse from a moral standpoint, is and has always been a valued good. The fact it's as accessible as information on, oh, dark matter... Says a lot about the nature of the Informationn Age.

[madnak]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

That's not true at all. Well, it's true in the sense of Eastern religion. If I am God, then of course I can't look directly at God. But if God is separate from me, and is the basis of everything, then not only should I be able to see God, but everything should lead toward him. There should be so many arrows pointing to God I wouldn't be able to take a step without finding one. And God, being the most logical being in the universe, should appear very readily in logic.

What's your basis for the prediction that if God is the basis of everything, he's inscrutable? You're really going to have to work to establish that it's irrational to consider the existence of God.

[/ QUOTE ]

It's true in any religion. Although strictly, Christianity cannot be considered as a religion because it breaks the wall separating man from God, which is the basis of religion. Divinity becomes human, humanity becomes divine.

Especially considering Eastern Christianity, with its focus on apophatic theology, only allowing for negative attributions about God, there is no way for man to come to any positive conclusion either way with regard to God's existence. Like you said, in the world everything should point toward God, but this is only true insofar as He appears to us, not as He is in Himself, in His essence or mere existence. But even apart from these theological exercises, we can see most poignantly in Kant's Third Antinomy of Pure Reason (in the Critique of Pure Reason) that this is not something on which the human mind can positively pronounce.

Besides this, there is no reason why the faculty with which we could perceive God would be reason, and reason alone. (Unless of course one admits of no other faculty, but even the most depraved of philosophers fail to go this far.) Consider that in Chrisianity the embodiment of logic, the Logos, is a man, Jesus Christ, a human and divine person.

[/ QUOTE ]

That's all true, but none of it implies that it's irrational to consider the existence of God. You've already acknowledged that atheism is a sensible position. If you were arguing otherwise, these would be good points. But they don't support your suggestion that it's irrational even to begin an inquiry.

Also, this isn't exactly a common take on Christianity. It's refreshing, I'll grant you that, but it's inconsistent with the approach of various Christians on these boards.

[evil twin]

I believed until I was 9 or 10. At school we were made to pray every morning, and I just took it on board like any child will do. My parents never said a word about religion. One day in the school playground a good friend and fellow 10 year old said to me:

Friend "You know there isn't a God right?"
Me "What do you mean?"
Friend "There's no God. Think about it, it's obvious."
Me "Uhhhh"
Friend "I don't know why those teachers make us pray, it's clearly not true"
Me "Whaaaa?"

It took approximately a week from that point for me to actually think about the concept and realise my friend was correct. If only other 10 year olds had such wise friends.

[FortunaMaximus]

[ QUOTE ]
It took approximately a week from that point for me to actually think about the concept and realise my friend was correct. If only other 10 year olds had such wise friends.

[/ QUOTE ]

But they do. They recognize who is worth arguing this point with and who isn't. And not at 10 either.

[AthenianStranger]

[ QUOTE ]
That's all true, but none of it implies that it's irrational to consider the existence of God. You've already acknowledged that atheism is a sensible position. If you were arguing otherwise, these would be good points. But they don't support your suggestion that it's irrational even to begin an inquiry.

Also, this isn't exactly a common take on Christianity. It's refreshing, I'll grant you that, but it's inconsistent with the approach of various Christians on these boards.

[/ QUOTE ]

Atheism may be sensible, but it's fatally false. My point is not that it's irrational to begin an inquiry of this sort, but that it's irrational to consider God only rationally. If man was created by God, God created both his reason and any subrational, irrational or arational elements that he may have.

Edit: Excepting the passions that exist as a result of our fallen nature, that is.

[txag007]

[ QUOTE ]
I believed until I was 9 or 10. At school we were made to pray every morning, and I just took it on board like any child will do. My parents never said a word about religion. One day in the school playground a good friend and fellow 10 year old said to me:

Friend "You know there isn't a God right?"
Me "What do you mean?"
Friend "There's no God. Think about it, it's obvious."
Me "Uhhhh"
Friend "I don't know why those teachers make us pray, it's clearly not true"
Me "Whaaaa?"

It took approximately a week from that point for me to actually think about the concept and realise my friend was correct. If only other 10 year olds had such wise friends.

[/ QUOTE ]
So what you're saying is that at age 10 you were smarter than someone like C.S. Lewis (just to throw a name out)? Is that correct?

[FortunaMaximus]

There was a four year old, once, who asked his mother one night out of fear whether death was solvable. He realized his mother didn't know, neither did most adults.

This problem has preoccupied him for a quarter-century. So far he's fine with the immutability of the concept. But if he can find a solution, he will.

Is this really so inconcieveable, txag? The topography of the Universe implies nothing can be destroyed or created, only reconstituted. Matter. Energy. Awareness?

C.S. Lewis? A notable author, right? On the fundamentals of belief and such? I reckon even he would tell you he started thinking of those concepts in his childhood. Don't we all as thinking beings?

I'd hate to be wrong about this, as it'd sadden me to realize that there truly aren't that many people who think as I'd originally assume.

But I wax contemplative. Some statements have nothing to do with ego, but a lack of.

At the end of the day, it's a wondrous riddle, and there's certainly a gigantic fear associated with the unknown and realizing every person will arrive at the solution, regardless of how and why he gets there.

[txag007]

[ QUOTE ]
C.S. Lewis? A notable author, right? On the fundamentals of belief and such? I reckon even he would tell you he started thinking of those concepts in his childhood. Don't we all as thinking beings?

[/ QUOTE ]
But to say, "I'm an athiest because I decided there wasn't a god at age 10" is about as silly as someone who claims Christ solely on the basis of his parents' faith, no?

[Prodigy54321]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
C.S. Lewis? A notable author, right? On the fundamentals of belief and such? I reckon even he would tell you he started thinking of those concepts in his childhood. Don't we all as thinking beings?

[/ QUOTE ]
But to say, "I'm an athiest because I decided there wasn't a god at age 10" is about as silly as someone who claims Christ solely on the basis of his parents' faith, no?

[/ QUOTE ]

Would you say that a 10 year old coming to the conlcusion that there is no easter bunny is just as "silly?"

[Prodigy54321]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
That's all true, but none of it implies that it's irrational to consider the existence of God. You've already acknowledged that atheism is a sensible position. If you were arguing otherwise, these would be good points. But they don't support your suggestion that it's irrational even to begin an inquiry.

Also, this isn't exactly a common take on Christianity. It's refreshing, I'll grant you that, but it's inconsistent with the approach of various Christians on these boards.

[/ QUOTE ]

Atheism may be sensible, but it's fatally false. My point is not that it's irrational to begin an inquiry of this sort, but that it's irrational to consider God only rationally. If man was created by God, God created both his reason and any subrational, irrational or arational elements that he may have.

Edit: Excepting the passions that exist as a result of our fallen nature, that is.

[/ QUOTE ]

by "subrational, irrational, arational" (or what you propose we must use to come to the conclusion that God does exist) do you mean basically the "heart" or the like...

developing an untestable, unobservable, unfalsifiable mechanism that can supposedly detect an untestable, unobservable, unfalsifiable entity does not solve the problem.

1) can you provide evidence that this even exists?
2) can you provide evidence that if this does exist, it is more capable of bringing us to truths? (more capable than reason that is)

also, people's "hearts" bring them to different conclusions..

I guess you would say that Muslims aren't really "following their hearts" if it has brought them to the conclusion that Islam is correct, but they could say the same about you...how are we to decide which is actually being led by the "heart"?

[AthenianStranger]

[ QUOTE ]
I guess you would say that Muslims aren't really "following their hearts" if it has brought them to the conclusion that Islam is correct, but they could say the same about you...how are we to decide which is actually being led by the "heart"?

[/ QUOTE ]

Just as there is a correct way to employ the reason, not just following 'what seems reasonable' in some vague way, there is a correct way to employ the heart, not just ambiguously 'following one's heart.'

[madnak]

[ QUOTE ]
But to say, "I'm an athiest because I decided there wasn't a god at age 10" is about as silly as someone who claims Christ solely on the basis of his parents' faith, no?

[/ QUOTE ]

10-year-olds are silly. They almost have to be, in order to function well.

[David Sklansky]

"Just as there is a correct way to employ the reason, not just following 'what seems reasonable' in some vague way, there is a correct way to employ the heart, not just ambiguously 'following one's heart."

So why would Muslims purposely choose the "incorrect" way? Might they in fact agree with your above statement and claim claim Christianity is the "incorrect" way?

[FortunaMaximus]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
C.S. Lewis? A notable author, right? On the fundamentals of belief and such? I reckon even he would tell you he started thinking of those concepts in his childhood. Don't we all as thinking beings?

[/ QUOTE ]
But to say, "I'm an athiest because I decided there wasn't a god at age 10" is about as silly as someone who claims Christ solely on the basis of his parents' faith, no?

[/ QUOTE ]

It's not something you decide, so, your line of reasoning is accurate here. Faith's a two-way street. It isn't always lack of faith in a God, it is faith that the Universe doesn't need a God watching over it or micromanaging.

In any event, wearing that as a badge of pride in the way that you go, "But I figured out that God didn't exist when I was 10." It isn't a race, man. It's just with some minds at these ages, they are able to form logical arguments even if they do not have the definite language for it.

I suppose for Muslims, the decisions aren't that different, and indeed the differences are fundamentally cultural. In a extremely male-dominated culture, even moreso than the West, you find Allah to be an even more paternalistic, angry but not vindictive god who final word is final. And the reason his word is final is because generally under Islamic law, women do not have the weight of vote. Well. And the reward for this, is the virgins in Paradise. This is in line with the cultural aspects of living in a Islamic world. Just an example.

The fundamental difference, surprisingly, is one of interpretation and enviroment, logically.

Faith and belief are the two most personal individual values you can hold within yourself, external forces be damned. No amount of rhetoric or dogma will sway what a person truly thinks or feels without poisoning the purity of the logic that is inherently individual.

<shrugs> The Universe is self-recursive. It doesn't need an external force to keep it together. It's full of mystery. The joke may be that this entity is just one of us. He could be any one of us. He may not know what's going on either, but has the benefit of insight, if not hindsight. And it's a vast place. To think at this stage in our development we know all the answers... We're groping in the dark on pure initution, really. Whatever we build is our legacy. And this lends our descendants the shoulders and the structure to continue building.

And as far as we know, this is an eternal build. So far nobody's stopped by to tell us otherwise. The infighting and spite is silly.

Pax Terra. Regardless of background, of belief, of personal vendettas, of justifiable reasons to bring your point across... Does it really matter? And does it really matter also, when an individual comes to this reckoning within himself or herself? Sure, provide the structure and lead the way... But using moral or intellectual force to bring a whole segment of population into line with what you believe is right... That is truly the most selfish aspect of Christianity and of Islam. It's a shame, really.

I don't know why I needed so many words to paint the whole picture. The first two paragraphs might have been enough.

Anyway.

[txag007]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
C.S. Lewis? A notable author, right? On the fundamentals of belief and such? I reckon even he would tell you he started thinking of those concepts in his childhood. Don't we all as thinking beings?

[/ QUOTE ]
But to say, "I'm an athiest because I decided there wasn't a god at age 10" is about as silly as someone who claims Christ solely on the basis of his parents' faith, no?

[/ QUOTE ]

Would you say that a 10 year old coming to the conlcusion that there is no easter bunny is just as "silly?"

[/ QUOTE ]
That's a silly question really. To decide or come to a true belief that God doesn't exist (a belief that isn't based on ignorance), there are a lot of issues one must reconcile in his or her mind. Do you agree? You don't just decide to disbelieve. If you did, it would require just as much faith as the believers, no?

[bunny]

[ QUOTE ]
That's a silly question really. To decide or come to a true belief that God doesn't exist (a belief that isn't based on ignorance), there are a lot of issues one must reconcile in his or her mind. Do you agree? You don't just decide to disbelieve. If you did, it would require just as much faith as the believers, no?

[/ QUOTE ]
I dont think this is right. I think most strong atheists are of that view because they can see no evidence for god's existence. This is a different thing than faith in god as atheists have good grounds (ie the success of the scientific method) for restricting their beliefs to precisely those things for which there is evidence. Theists have no such reason for choosing whatever method of forming beliefs allows faith.

[AceofSpades]

<- christian 5 yrs to 21yrs old

I'm 22 now. I deconverted because of biblical problems, creationist lies, and unanswered prayers. But I guess the primary reason was having a friend that was a sincere christian deconvert, he felt was making the right decision even after praying about it and I couldn't reconcile it with my belief about god/christianity. Creationism being wrong was just icing on the cake. Of course it took about two years of praying for answers but receiving none. So
I guess it was gradual, going from belief with doubts to wanting to believe but not being sure, to the place where you're not sure what is true, to becoming convinced it's not true.
Joseph

[Jim T]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
C.S. Lewis? A notable author, right? On the fundamentals of belief and such? I reckon even he would tell you he started thinking of those concepts in his childhood. Don't we all as thinking beings?

[/ QUOTE ]
But to say, "I'm an athiest because I decided there wasn't a god at age 10" is about as silly as someone who claims Christ solely on the basis of his parents' faith, no?

[/ QUOTE ]

Would you say that a 10 year old coming to the conlcusion that there is no easter bunny is just as "silly?"

[/ QUOTE ]
That's a silly question really. To decide or come to a true belief that God doesn't exist (a belief that isn't based on ignorance), there are a lot of issues one must reconcile in his or her mind. Do you agree? You don't just decide to disbelieve. If you did, it would require just as much faith as the believers, no?

[/ QUOTE ]

I was around 8. Up until then I was quite religious.

I was very upset about something, I may have been being punished for something I did. I decided to "punish" God for whatever "cruel injustice" I was suffering under by disbelieving in Him. After a few days, I decided to give Him another chance - all he had to do was prove himself. It hasn't happened yet.

I think this whole thing about becoming an atheist at 7 or 8 or 15 or whenever isn't the complete truth. I suspect that what most of the posters are instead chronicling is when they first put the burden of proof where it belongs. Instead of assuming that God was real and had to be disproven, they began to start with the assumption that He was NOT real and must be proven.

They, like me, are still waiting for God to prove Himself. If He ever gets around to it, I'll be happy to oblige Him by believing again but I think the chance is vanishingly remote.

[vhawk01]

[ QUOTE ]
<- christian 5 yrs to 21yrs old

I'm 22 now. I deconverted because of biblical problems, creationist lies, and unanswered prayers. But I guess the primary reason was having a friend that was a sincere christian deconvert, he felt was making the right decision even after praying about it and I couldn't reconcile it with my belief about god/christianity. Creationism being wrong was just icing on the cake. Of course it took about two years of praying for answers but receiving none. So
I guess it was gradual, going from belief with doubts to wanting to believe but not being sure, to the place where you're not sure what is true, to becoming convinced it's not true.
Joseph

[/ QUOTE ]

I wonder how Christians would reconcile themselves with your story. I mean, I bet most of them have no problem that I'm going to Hell, I don't much like Christianity and was only nominally Christian throughout my childhood. I've obviously never given Christ the chance you did. But you gave a whole-hearted, earnest effort, and God basically ignored you. BURN! And now (according to them) you get to go to hell. That sucks.

[txag007]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
<- christian 5 yrs to 21yrs old

I'm 22 now. I deconverted because of biblical problems, creationist lies, and unanswered prayers. But I guess the primary reason was having a friend that was a sincere christian deconvert, he felt was making the right decision even after praying about it and I couldn't reconcile it with my belief about god/christianity. Creationism being wrong was just icing on the cake. Of course it took about two years of praying for answers but receiving none. So
I guess it was gradual, going from belief with doubts to wanting to believe but not being sure, to the place where you're not sure what is true, to becoming convinced it's not true.
Joseph

[/ QUOTE ]

I wonder how Christians would reconcile themselves with your story. I mean, I bet most of them have no problem that I'm going to Hell, I don't much like Christianity and was only nominally Christian throughout my childhood. I've obviously never given Christ the chance you did. But you gave a whole-hearted, earnest effort, and God basically ignored you. BURN! And now (according to them) you get to go to hell. That sucks.

[/ QUOTE ]
In the words of Jesus:
27My sheep listen to my voice; I know them, and they follow me. 28I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; no one can snatch them out of my hand.
John 10:27-28

[FortunaMaximus]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
<- christian 5 yrs to 21yrs old

I'm 22 now. I deconverted because of biblical problems, creationist lies, and unanswered prayers. But I guess the primary reason was having a friend that was a sincere christian deconvert, he felt was making the right decision even after praying about it and I couldn't reconcile it with my belief about god/christianity. Creationism being wrong was just icing on the cake. Of course it took about two years of praying for answers but receiving none. So
I guess it was gradual, going from belief with doubts to wanting to believe but not being sure, to the place where you're not sure what is true, to becoming convinced it's not true.
Joseph

[/ QUOTE ]

I wonder how Christians would reconcile themselves with your story. I mean, I bet most of them have no problem that I'm going to Hell, I don't much like Christianity and was only nominally Christian throughout my childhood. I've obviously never given Christ the chance you did. But you gave a whole-hearted, earnest effort, and God basically ignored you. BURN! And now (according to them) you get to go to hell. That sucks.

[/ QUOTE ]
In the words of Jesus:
27My sheep listen to my voice; I know them, and they follow me. 28I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; no one can snatch them out of my hand.
John 10:27-28

[/ QUOTE ]

So if an individual wavers and settles on non-belief later in life, this can be interpreted as to say that doesn't matter, that once he has believed, that is enough of a qualifying criteria?

[txag007]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
<- christian 5 yrs to 21yrs old

I'm 22 now. I deconverted because of biblical problems, creationist lies, and unanswered prayers. But I guess the primary reason was having a friend that was a sincere christian deconvert, he felt was making the right decision even after praying about it and I couldn't reconcile it with my belief about god/christianity. Creationism being wrong was just icing on the cake. Of course it took about two years of praying for answers but receiving none. So
I guess it was gradual, going from belief with doubts to wanting to believe but not being sure, to the place where you're not sure what is true, to becoming convinced it's not true.
Joseph

[/ QUOTE ]

I wonder how Christians would reconcile themselves with your story. I mean, I bet most of them have no problem that I'm going to Hell, I don't much like Christianity and was only nominally Christian throughout my childhood. I've obviously never given Christ the chance you did. But you gave a whole-hearted, earnest effort, and God basically ignored you. BURN! And now (according to them) you get to go to hell. That sucks.

[/ QUOTE ]
In the words of Jesus:
27My sheep listen to my voice; I know them, and they follow me. 28I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; no one can snatch them out of my hand.
John 10:27-28

[/ QUOTE ]

So if an individual wavers and settles on non-belief later in life, this can be interpreted as to say that doesn't matter, that once he has believed, that is enough of a qualifying criteria?

[/ QUOTE ]
Yes.

[FortunaMaximus]

Interesting. In a rational sense, it does seem like cheating, not unlike a deathbed recantation. But I see the logic behind it. Once you've learnt to ride a bicycle, you need never ride the bicycle again, it is enough to know the basic skills...

[KUJustin]

[ QUOTE ]
In a rational sense, it does seem like cheating, not unlike a deathbed recantation.

[/ QUOTE ]

The problem with either of those is that it assumes that even if there is a God that you are still better off/happier pursuing your own will rather than God's will for you (which God, creater of the universe, has told you is good for you). I don't think people realize this but when they talk about accepting Christ on their deathbed it's one of the most outrageously prideful things you can say even if you're approaching it from an atheist's perspective (and don't think I'm trying to say I'm above that, I'm just as prideful).

[AthenianStranger]

[ QUOTE ]
Interesting. In a rational sense, it does seem like cheating, not unlike a deathbed recantation. But I see the logic behind it. Once you've learnt to ride a bicycle, you need never ride the bicycle again, it is enough to know the basic skills...

[/ QUOTE ]

God is not just. Why do we think we can restrain God with our rampant legalism? Why does everyone here think that Christianity is just some dumb arbitrary rule based system-- ooh, you committed adultery--HELL! you didn't believe in God-- HELL! No wonder so many Christians become atheists- this has to be false. Forunately these ideas are only the product of our perverted imaginations. People make up the silliest excuses for hating God and following their base desires.

It seems like any explanation of soteriology to somone who doesn't see the need for salvation seems like either we are cheating God or God is cheating us.

[FortunaMaximus]

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In a rational sense, it does seem like cheating, not unlike a deathbed recantation.

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The problem with either of those is that it assumes that even if there is a God that you are still better off/happier pursuing your own will rather than God's will for you (which God, creater of the universe, has told you is good for you). I don't think people realize this but when they talk about accepting Christ on their deathbed it's one of the most outrageously prideful things you can say even if you're approaching it from an atheist's perspective (and don't think I'm trying to say I'm above that, I'm just as prideful).

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Hardly. Pragmatic, I suppose. It's not a question of belief as much as it is a question of acknowledging the rules of engagement for an Universe with an all-powerful oversight solution in place.

For me, personally, it's more of a question of a civilization that encompasses the Universe. To such as us, those entities violate the self-recursive process that is an emergent Universe, and cannot be held above reproach. The amount of power they hold is vast, and unknowable by its nature. Because it is implied they can alter the fundamental physical laws or violate them as they see fit. Acknowledge God as one name for this much power is an easy way of interpreting omnipotence, at least to h. sap.

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Forunately these ideas are only the product of our perverted imaginations. People make up the silliest justifications for hating God and following their base desires.

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Not an correction, Athenian, but a redefinition of your gist. Frequently people commit an action that is against the moral codes of their religion, then backtrack to justify those actions, so they can present a clearer conscience to those that can judge them still on their mortal path.

This is somewhat of a distinction from presenting such a case to an entity that presumably knows everything and anticipates everything. Omnipotence is never described quite accurately in religion, but it is often worn as robes to dictate over a mass of people, using this same entity as justification to implement a personal moral code. In history, see Popes. There is an easy correlation between some historical Popes and their own personal, selfish agendas. And how they swayed people into doing crimes that are presumably against the code of God (commandments) for reasons that have nothing to do with God and morals, but a desire to conquer and leave a legacy in history.

Pragmatically, you should assume such entities exist, if only to narrow the decision-making processes of your actions towards a more morally acceptable human path. This often results in defaulting to the choices that are inherently good, instead of evil.

These decisions are not ours to judge, nor is it for individual humans to judge.

And the entity in question will be aware of this factor in its decision-making process. That is an unavoidable consequence of the role it has presumably chosen in allowing a broad interpretation of free will.

[AceofSpades]

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<- christian 5 yrs to 21yrs old

I'm 22 now. I deconverted because of biblical problems, creationist lies, and unanswered prayers. But I guess the primary reason was having a friend that was a sincere christian deconvert, he felt was making the right decision even after praying about it and I couldn't reconcile it with my belief about god/christianity. Creationism being wrong was just icing on the cake. Of course it took about two years of praying for answers but receiving none. So
I guess it was gradual, going from belief with doubts to wanting to believe but not being sure, to the place where you're not sure what is true, to becoming convinced it's not true.
Joseph

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I wonder how Christians would reconcile themselves with your story. I mean, I bet most of them have no problem that I'm going to Hell, I don't much like Christianity and was only nominally Christian throughout my childhood. I've obviously never given Christ the chance you did. But you gave a whole-hearted, earnest effort, and God basically ignored you. BURN! And now (according to them) you get to go to hell. That sucks.

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I guess some people justify it as more of "God's time" isn't our time thing. Like that God's going to prove himself to me, it's just a matter of time since I'm not dead yet. Seems a horribly inefficent way to run an enterprise, but I guess it beats the mental strain of having to think that your son is going to hell through no real fault of his own.

[madnak]

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God is not just. Why do we think we can restrain God with our rampant legalism? Why does everyone here think that Christianity is just some dumb arbitrary rule based system-- ooh, you committed adultery--HELL! you didn't believe in God-- HELL!

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This is the image of Christianity presented by Christians. For those of us who consider Christianity a mere belief, that's pretty much all there is to it, and all there should be.