Dealing with a clown at your poker table (WPT event)

[Bozo2P2]

This is a serious thread. I am going to give 0.5% of my final table action to the poster who gives the most insightful comments on how being a clown will affect my opponents in this bracelet winning event. I will contact you before the tournament starts so you know my real identity and can follow me in the tourney.

<font color="blue">
I will be dressing up like a clown for an upcoming WPT event and I am coming to my good friends at 2+2 to help give me strategy suggestions for insight on how this will effect the way that my opponents play against me</font>


Background (skip if not interested)
http://www.jameswoodcock.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2006/06/clown.jpg


-I can't make this post under my normal 2p2 name because I am a frequent contributor in the MTT forum and have outlined how I am going to play in this 3 day tournament under my other account and I don't want all of my plays to be exposed
-I also like the anonymity if I make it to the final table. I work in an industry where gambling is an enormous and unforgivable sin and dressing up will help me play in this TV tournament.
-I have a goofy personality in general. And have toyed with this idea for a little while.
-I have worked for years as a "Caring Clown" someone who dresses up with a group of other clowns and visits children's hospitals. If I make it to the final table I will donate a portion of my winnings to a local children's hospital and will encourage others to volunteer their time if I get a TV interview.

http://www.kalamalkacaringclowns.com/images/clown_onmonkeybig.jpg

Background over... Time for strategy

I am not sure on my exact costume yet but it will be a typical 'happy clown' look. My table demeanor is going to be very gregarious. I plan on buying a few bags of lollypops and giving them out to people when they fold a pot to me and possibly buying some baloons on which I will write corny saying like "I donated money to a clown"

Everyone at the table is going to recognize how I play.

My general strategy in super deep tournaments is to play TAG for a while and then change gears when appropriate (I don't want to give up too much of my strategy away here.) However, I will try to show off a couple big bluffs early on to cultivate the image of a loose clown.


My question to the 2p2 Psych community is how would you (or put yourselves in the shoes of one of the top tournament players in the world who will be attening this event) react to a clown at the table?

Would you tend to think that he was bluffing more?

Would you make thin calls down against him to see what he is holding (if a player sees me as entertainment then it would be like paying to see my cards with a thin valubet)

Would you try to bully the clown?

Would you try to run him over? and push him off hands?

Would you just want to avoid him for fear that you could not keep a straight face and would give off tells?

Would you try to trap him?

If you knew that the clown was going to get on TV when he got busted would you want to call with hands (mid pairs for set value or suited connectors) that could deliver a knockout blow to him?

If he was using a play like a stop and go shortstacked late in the tournament would you be more inclined to think that he is bluffing because he is a goofy clown?

If you answer any of these questions specifically please state your rational for your answers because it is the theory that will cause these reactions that I am interested in.

My theory is that people are going to give me a lot less respect (I am a clown) and will be eager to enter into pots with me. I believe that it will be harder for me to bluff but easier to value bet my big hands. I believe that whenever a flush or a straight hits I will be given too much credit for hitting that card because people will associate a clown with the type of person who would river their TPTK.

[Dementia]

I think this guy might've already beat you to it.

http://img146.imageshack.us/img146/2071/tictacok2.jpg

Robert "Tic-Tac" Border from Aruba Poker Classic

[jtr]

Clowns are scary.

[Freelancer]

[ QUOTE ]
Clowns are scary.

[/ QUOTE ]

QFT

[deadbody]

I don't believe that you'll be able to play with full make-up on.

I can't imagine changing my play just to bust a clown. I don't think too many people will.

[italianstang]

I would assume that a player dressed up like a clown was not very good. As you know in large live tournaments there ara high percentage of total donkeys and I would quickly put someone dressed this way in to that category. Until I saw some seriously good play I would probably keep assuming that the clown was a bad player who felt that the extra gimmick might get him some TV exposure but who didnt have a significant chance to win the tournament.

If the clown played generally tight I would guess that the clown's friend gave him a few poker lessons in the days before and instructed him to only play premium hands. Until I saw differently I would remain under that assumption.

If the clown showed down a couple big bluffs early I would still probably not change my attitude as the amount of good players who show down bluffs has lessened I believe. This would further my belief that the clown was trying to get attention/get on TV.

As such I would probably assume that except for attention getting bluffs the clown played straightforward big hands and I would try to trap him. I assume that he might be a slight calling station as many newish players are. I would avoid big pots without big hands because I think deception against a clown might be wasted.

[zelwood]

Some thoughts; I believe I would play significantly looser against a clown in a tournament setting. There are several reasons for this, including subconscious psychological ones I think many players, even professionals, aren't aware of. The clown's wacky make-up (often white with exaggerated red lips and big red noses) is meant to exaggerate the feelings of the clown, whether positive or negative. This exaggeration seeks to emphasize that the clown's persona is larger than life; their ups are higher than other people's, their downs are lower than others; have you ever seen a crying clown? You feel really sorry for them. So I think people are influenced to see the clown as a very mercurial figure, who might be swinging at the fences one minute but who might be very down in the dumps the next.
Myself, personally, I would try to trap the clown. I would wait for the clown to make a move with a substandard hand, and then trap him for all of his chips. Setting the trap would be a great strategy against a clown in my opinion. Another alternative yet equally effective strategy might be to bully the clown. The clown might be easily intimidated, as the clown's usual environment tends to be with young children, and they are not used to dealing with brute aggression. I would say that either trapping or bullying the clown might be the way to go, but I wouldn't do both, unless you had a good read on the clown. Clowns by nature are hard to read; the make-up and the silliness tend to obscure the normal reads. I would recommend looking for whacky accoutrements or props that the clown has brought with him; such as a large manually operated horn, or a top hat, or a puppet. His use of these in big pots may tell you a lot about his playing style.
I'm very intrigued by these ideas. I've actually considered writing a book where I would give strategies for playing against a wide-range of unorthodox opponents; these would include religious authorities, Vietnam veterans, people in wheelchairs, Sumo wrestlers, and maybe I should include clowns, not sure.

[Bozo2P2]

I don't believe that you'll be able to play with full make-up on.

This will not be a problem. You forget about the makeup after a while and do not notice it.
-----------------------
I would assume that a player dressed up like a clown was not very good. As you know in large live tournaments there ara high percentage of total donkeys and I would quickly put someone dressed this way in to that category. Until I saw some seriously good play I would probably keep assuming that the clown was a bad player who felt that the extra gimmick might get him some TV exposure but who didnt have a significant chance to win the tournament.

This is what I am counting on. So the question might dissolve down to how do you play in a big tournament against someone who you think does not know what they are doing.
------------------------

If the clown showed down a couple big bluffs early I would still probably not change my attitude as the amount of good players who show down bluffs has lessened I believe.

So if the stacks start at 20,000 with 90 minute levels and 25/50 blinds and I am a good enough reader of players to sense weakness does it make sense for me to show down a couple bluffs in small pots early on in order to cultivate a clowinsh image?

--------------------------

I would avoid big pots without big hands because I think deception against a clown might be wasted.

This might be interesting but don't most 'solid' players try to avoid big pots without big hands?

Would you be more likely to fold a set when a flush card hits against a clown?

-------------------------


Some thoughts; I believe I would play significantly looser against a clown in a tournament setting. There are several reasons for this, including subconscious psychological ones I think many players, even professionals, aren't aware of.

I think that you are dead on with this and many people will play looser against me because the makeup etc. will cause them to lose their focus. I expect people to go too far with 2nd pair decent kicker type hands if I fast play against them as they won't be able to take me seriously.

---------------------

Another alternative yet equally effective strategy might be to bully the clown. The clown might be easily intimidated, as the clown's usual environment tends to be with young children, and they are not used to dealing with brute aggression.

This is an interesting thought. The counterargument to this is if I am seen as being a bad player (because of my demeanor) then skilled players might follow the maxim of "don't bluff bad players" and I think that only lesser players might try to bully me.

-------------------------

I'm very intrigued by these ideas. I've actually considered writing a book where I would give strategies for playing against a wide-range of unorthodox opponents; these would include religious authorities, Vietnam veterans, people in wheelchairs, Sumo wrestlers, and maybe I should include clowns, not sure.

I assume this is second level joke to protect yourself in case I have trapped you into giving me a serious response to a rediculous question. I assure you that I am very serious about playing in this tournament in a clown costume and I am legitimately interested in how this will effect my opponents.

--------------------

I think that something that I have to keep in mind is that pro players will have very different reactions to my costume than will amateurs than will internet donks...

I am thinking very seriously about this subject and will share more of my feelings once I finalize them.

Thank you for your help so far. The most helpful response will get 0.5% of my final table action.

[alphatmw]

this guy is trying to find the people stupid enough to give this thread a serious response.

[Cornell Fiji]

Edit: You edited your post saying that you were playing the WPT Canada tournaments... feel free to come out to dinner with us before the tournament starts as I think I have some good ideas for how this will effect your game.

I think this is a very interesting question. I enjoy the psychological aspect of the game and I think one of the best skills that I have at a table is getting people to do what I want them to do (exhibiting the body language to entice a call, raise, or fold.)

Bozo,
I think that if you are a thinking player who wants to be able to effect his opponents then a gimmick like yours could certaintly be +EV if you can learn what people think of you going in... I have a really long post (only partially written) for you but I am going to bed soon so I am saving it in a word file and I will respond to this thread later with my advice.

Shoot me a PM with your contact info and we will meet for a drink before the tournament

[Bozo2P2]

[ QUOTE ]
this guy is trying to find the people stupid enough to give this thread a serious response.

[/ QUOTE ]

I am going to the Canadian Poker open. If I do well I will lay in the North American poker open.

I will be there... dressed as a clown.

If you are a doubter then put your money where your mouth is with your beief that I am not serious I will bet you $1000 that I am true to my word and will compete in the Canadian Poker Open tourney dressed as a clown. I'll even pay you out in American if I win the wager and you can pay me out in Canadian if you win the wager. This is a serious thread looking for serious input.

There are interesting things that my clown attire will cause my villains to do I am hoping that we can discuss them further in this thread

[Rottersod]

[ QUOTE ]
I don't believe that you'll be able to play with full make-up on.

This will not be a problem. You forget about the makeup after a while and do not notice it.

[/ QUOTE ]

I think what the poster meant was that you will not be allowed to play dressed as a clown.

[redpen]

IMO this is a joke post but since there is nothing wrong with a little humor in life I will play along.
#1. IF the Casino/WPT reserve the right to refuse to serve anyone at anytime for any reason I can't think of a better time to institute the policy. Case closed, experiment over. I imagine the conversation going something like this....
CASINO: Hey you can't play dressed up like that!
IDIOT IN HOT UNCOMFORTABLE CLOWN SUIT/MAKEUP: Why not? There is no written rule against it. Prove that I can't wear this attire as opposed to a Brioni suit!
CASINO: Ummmm....NO. Either go put some normal clothes on or get ready to FORFIT your buyin you jerk!
IDIOT IN HOT UNCOMFORTABLE CLOWN SUIT/MAKEUP: Changes clothes, sits down and is eliminated in the first hour after being put on tilt because the casino would not act as an enabler for his retarded desperate act for attention idea.

[italianstang]

[ QUOTE ]
IMO this is a joke post but since there is nothing wrong with a little humor in life I will play along.
#1. IF the Casino/WPT reserve the right to refuse to serve anyone at anytime for any reason I can't think of a better time to institute the policy. Case closed, experiment over. I imagine the conversation going something like this....
CASINO: Hey you can't play dressed up like that!
IDIOT IN HOT UNCOMFORTABLE CLOWN SUIT/MAKEUP: Why not? There is no written rule against it. Prove that I can't wear this attire as opposed to a Brioni suit!
CASINO: Ummmm....NO. Either go put some normal clothes on or get ready to FORFIT your buyin you jerk!
IDIOT IN HOT UNCOMFORTABLE CLOWN SUIT/MAKEUP: Changes clothes, sits down and is eliminated in the first hour after being put on tilt because the casino would not act as an enabler for his retarded desperate act for attention idea.

[/ QUOTE ]

Well you're not gonna with the .5% thats for sure...

[BigBuffet]

[ QUOTE ]
Clowns are scary.

[/ QUOTE ]

Mimes are scarier.

Ventriliquists are just plain psycho.

[GrinningBuddha]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I don't believe that you'll be able to play with full make-up on.

This will not be a problem. You forget about the makeup after a while and do not notice it.

[/ QUOTE ]

I think what the poster meant was that you will not be allowed to play dressed as a clown.

[/ QUOTE ]

Casinos have this... thing... about being able to ID people. Ever seen anyone with a balaclava or in a mask playing in a casino? There's a reason for that. The same would apply to full facial makeup such as you are planning to wear. Since your getup would obscure your face, you will not be able to enter the casino wearing it.

If you were to lose the facial makeup and just go with the wig and clown suit, you'd probably be fine. At that point, it's up to the poker manager as to whether your costume would violate any dress codes that the casino has.

As for your question, your persona would be more likely to throw off the amateurs rather anyone who'd played more than a dozen $10k buyin events. But then, most amateurs are likely to be off their games anyway, so I have my doubts that you would see much of a result from your experiment. Good luck all the same. /images/graemlins/smile.gif

[WhoIam]

I doubt dressing as a clown would have any noticeable effect other than a few laughs and bad jokes directed your way. I'm sure most people in the tournament play on the internet and see all kinds of ridiculous or offensive player names, avatars, and chat. It's more or less agreed that this has no noticeable effect on opponent behavior. If I were you, I would do something extra like speak in a ridiculous falsetto voice at the table so no one could take you seriously.

[MrFizzbin]

My initial thought would be: Idiot.

My Play would be weak means strong, Idiot means sharp, so I'd give respect untill I see play that makes me think otherwise.

Personally I think this is a dumb Idea, but its your buy-in so as long as the costume is laundered and you bath beforehand I probably wouldnt care.

PS If you really want to be annoying, make balloon animals/hats between hands or while not involved in hands.

[bryan4967]

dude...come on...

[Youre A Towel]

I like the idea. I almost wore a goofy mask to the WSOP this year, but decided i'd be too hot.

[DeuceKicker]

I went through and answered point-by-point, but it was repetitive and annoying. Cliff notes:

I don’t think a clown suit will fool the pros for more than a round or two (maybe even only an orbit or two). If I were a pro, my initial assumption might be that you were a gambooler, but if anything, it would make me pay closer attention to you. Non-pros might play even more loosely and more aggressively against you, which I woudln't really want if I were trying to play TAG. You can probably value bet a little more early against bad players (you can do that anyway)

Forget bluffing early. You'll win a few tiny pots from the pros, but the Donks will call early and often.

By the time you get to the point where stealing blinds is important, the pros will have already figured you out, and the donks never were going to figure you out. Some donks will still be around, having luckboxed their way to big stacks, but they'll be playing their cards and all but ignoring you, anyway.

I think you're putting too much emphasis on top pros trying to see into your soul, and not giving them enough credit for looking past the clown suit, paying attention, and replaying hands in their head after you've shown down. They'll figure you out pretty quickly.

[siwicki]

lawl

[elliot]

first thought: youre a jackass and an attention whore.

after reading your post: youre a jackass and an attention whore.

[beaver]

If I was at a table with a clown I would probably try to avoid playing with him much in the first place. I would be interested in seeing how other players deal with him. If I ever did wind up in a hand with him, I would probably try to trap him just so he would turn into a sad clown. Sad clowns are funny.

If you really want an edge you should take the angle of a scary, angry clown. Ever seen Pee Wee's Big Adventure? Those are the kinds of clowns you want to mimic. An angry clown with scary makeup and big fangs would scare the crap out of most people at a table.

Scary clown = big winner!

Silly, happy clown = fool that everybody wants to bust

http://img169.imageshack.us/img169/2058/pennywiseyy0.jpg

S.B.T.C /images/graemlins/spade.gif

[Apathy]

Well this is bizarre,

The biggest effect this would have on me was that I would assume this stunt got them into the event in some way so I would believe them to be huge donks but then again that's what I always assume about anyone I don't know yet.

[Albert Moulton]

I think you would do well to take a page out of the books of other clowns that just don't wear the clown suit.

Like the "quack quack" guy. He's really good, but gets under people's skin because he's a clown with all the bets and raises in increments of "quack" (2) and "quack quack" (22).

Make rainbow bets. Stack you chips in the shape of a pyramid or something. Periodically make donk min-bets on every street that gets checked just to piss every body off - as you smile and say, "value betting the best hand here, I bet 1 green chip..."

Early on while the stacks are deep, play a lot of pots in late position, especially limped pots multi-way 4xBB pots. You can't get attention and build an image if you play only 10% of the hands for the first 5 hours. Loose up, and play for 2-pairs and unlikely straights - just be careful who your in with and don't bluff a monster.

If you can make them uncomfortable both with silly antics AND bets/raises/turn&amp;river moves, it will be very diconcerting to villains and you'll get a number of them to pay you off - provided, of course, you don't bluff into a monster &amp; get crippled early on.

[BS Yee]

I didn't read the other responses so forgive me if I repeat what others have said. My 2 cents.

My question to the 2p2 Psych community is how would you (or put yourselves in the shoes of one of the top tournament players in the world who will be attening this event) react to a clown at the table?

-- A top player will see thru the stunt and adjust accordingly. HOWEVER, as much as they will try to make a mental adjustment, they will have an unconscious prejudice against you that you are a clown. Much like we all have ingrained attitudes against women, minorities, midgets, etc but we try to deny that in these politically correct times, there will be underlying attitudes that will affect a decision or two. (And if you're a black female midget, my apologies)

Would you tend to think that he was bluffing more?

-- I would suggest showing a bluff early so that you can then reinforce that you will bluff. If you play straight TAG, then you will get respect. You're doing this not to get respect so do something stupid early to get paid off later. -EV early to get +EV later.

Would you make thin calls down against him to see what he is holding (if a player sees me as entertainment then it would be like paying to see my cards with a thin valubet)

--Yes. You are not dressed seriously so you won't be taken seriously.

Would you try to bully the clown?

--Yes. I would try and bust you. And I would be enraged when you beat me. You have raised the stakes by wearing a clown costume. What you have to do is not play like a clown but you can certainly act like a clown. If you can seperate your decision making from your persona, that's the trick. Have the squirting flower. Have the hand buzzer. Have a horn. Be annoying. But make good poker decisions. Your persona should be opposite of your card playing.

Would you try to run him over? and push him off hands?

--Yes. See above.

Would you just want to avoid him for fear that you could not keep a straight face and would give off tells?

--People will try harder. What did Shakespeare say, "the lady doth protest too much, methinks". This should work to your advantage. The harder they try to not specifically give you a tell, the more likely you might be able to pick something up. If you've gotten to him with the costume, then the player is already a little off his normal game. Again, you have raised the stakes. If you can get someone to avoid you, then it's definitely +EV for you.

Would you try to trap him?

--I would try and trap everyone.

If you knew that the clown was going to get on TV when he got busted would you want to call with hands (mid pairs for set value or suited connectors) that could deliver a knockout blow to him?

--At that point of the tournament, it's not personal, it's to get to TV. By that time, the novelty would have worn off and you would have had to have gotten some respect by then. However, underlying prejuidices would still be in play.

If he was using a play like a stop and go shortstacked late in the tournament would you be more inclined to think that he is bluffing because he is a goofy clown?

--I'm always suspicious of any stop and go play. If you're a short stack ninja, then I'm more apt to call. If you've got chips, then it's based on a read.

[ReidDeCardes]

The picture of the clown in the playground is creepy. Is the clown's name 'NAMBLA the clown'?

[pacecar86]

can't beleive this thread is still going on - will someone please put it out of its misery....at least the clown will be suited &lt;&lt;&lt;errrkkk&gt;&gt;&gt;

[benfranklin]

If I was playing against someone in a clown suit, I would ask the floor to verify his age and identity every time he left the room and came back, to make sure that it was still the same person. Unless his drivers license showed him in clown make-up, that would require a clean face.

There are already enough clowns in the game. We don't need another one.

[MrFizzbin]

So how did you do, and who got .05% of nothing....

[Bozo2P2]

I was going to play in the Canadian Poker Championship but it was sold out before I could enter.

I will reply here when the plan takes effect