AK facing turn resistance

[Jimbio]

Reads of villain is a loose passive opponent (54/2/0.4) this is a very, very limited samplesize ~100 hands. (these numbers are (vp$ip/preflop-raise/aggr. factor) right?)
I am fairly new in the game and pick up A/images/graemlins/heart.gif K /images/graemlins/diamond.gif in the CO
We both got full stacks in 50$NL
fold to villain who limps, mp limp. i raise to 2.5$, blinds fold, villain calls, 2:nd limper folds. 2 players to the flop. pot ~6.25$

I dont got the hand converted, so forgive me, but i hope the play from here on is comprehendible.
> Dealing the Flop(3/images/graemlins/diamond.gif 5/images/graemlins/spade.gif A/images/graemlins/club.gif)
> villain checked
i usually bet out no matter i hit or miss, but i decided this was a safe flop and checked behind. (comments?)
> Hero checked
> Dealing the turn(9/images/graemlins/heart.gif) pot ~6.25$
> villain bet for $3
> Hero raised for $10
> Villain raised for $42
> Hero ?

This is my thinking: Considering he is kind of passive in this session, his raise clearly stands out of the ordinary.
Limp - call? did he flop a set? Do i want to commit my entire stack with just TPTK?

All comments are welcome - Thank you.

[ajmargarine]

Thanks for posting this. It's hands like this that serve as a reminder why it's often best to just play ABC poker, especially when all you have is one pair on the flop. You're strong on the flop, just bet. You say you are making continuation bets all the time, which is even more reason to bet here.

His 3-bet on the turn now can mean many things since he doesn't think you have an ace. I don't like to get stacked with one pair unless it's me initiating all the action. (not that I am fond of that either /images/graemlins/smile.gif ) I think you have to begrudgingly fold, even though you are folding the best hand sometimes.

[Niwa]

Bet flop. Call turn and river.

[ajmargarine]

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Bet flop. Bet turn and maybe even bet the river.

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FYP

[Jimbio]

(Board; just for reference 3/images/graemlins/diamond.gif 5/images/graemlins/spade.gif A/images/graemlins/club.gif(9/images/graemlins/heart.gif)) My hand: (A/images/graemlins/heart.gifK /images/graemlins/diamond.gif)


If i had stayed in my old mindset, i would probably bet the flop, and when called on a dry board - i'd put my opponent on some kind of hit. I'd check behind on the turn, and call a riverbet, bet it myself if checked to.

the reasoning? The limp-call preflop screams suited ace or a small pocket pair, probably the latter.
Checking behind on the turn is good versus the flopped set, flopped 2-pair (Ax) and weak versus an A with missed kicker. The board was dry enough to justify a free card.
The check might also induce a bluff on the river versus several hands that i have beat.
Betting the turn and facing a raise would put you to a terrible Decision if you call and faced with a substantial bet at the river (as he is first to act.)

How is my line? Is the money won vs. a weaker ace greater than the money lost when i do happen to run into a set/2-pair? The question is... Do i play for my entire stack with a paired AK?

[ajmargarine]

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The board was dry enough to justify a free card....

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I don't want to give a free card (ever) if I only have one pair. If you play TAG, I think it's best just to bet that flop. You're making continuation bets, you're putting constant pressure on your opponents, sometimes you got the goods, sometimes you don't. Here, you got the goods, so just bet and let them make the tough decisions. You ended up having to make the tough decision here, and we want that shoe on the other foot.

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How is my line? Is the money won vs. a weaker ace greater than the money lost when i do happen to run into a set/2-pair? The question is... Do i play for my entire stack with a paired AK?

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I prefer with TPTK to bet flop, bet turn, and then check behind on the river if applicable, and sometimes value bet it depending on the board. Instead of bet flop, check turn, and then maybe be faced with a decision on the river if villian bets pot or something. I want to be the one controlling the action in the hands I am playing, plus I am doing the betting, so I am the one deciding how big the pot gets. You usually find out by the turn if you are up against a set or two pair. If villian checks to you on both the flop and turn, you are good almost always.

Most of the time it's a weaker ace calling you down hoping to outkick you. If you are representing TP or better with a turn bet, it's harder for villian to bluff you off your hand with air. I just want to be aggressive when I have position in a hand, and the bet flop, bet turn line works best for me as it compliments the other plays I like to make when I have position.

[Jimbio]

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I prefer with TPTK to bet flop, bet turn, and then check behind on the river if applicable, and sometimes value bet it depending on the board. Instead of bet flop, check turn, and then maybe be faced with a decision on the river if villian bets pot or something.

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If you check behind on the turn, a pot bet wont be so big. And i'd rather face a decision on the river than a check raise on the turn.

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I want to be the one controlling the action in the hands I am playing, plus I am doing the betting, so I am the one deciding how big the pot gets. You usually find out by the turn if you are up against a set or two pair. If villian checks to you on both the flop and turn, you are good almost always.

Most of the time it's a weaker ace calling you down hoping to outkick you. If you are representing TP or better with a turn bet, it's harder for villian to bluff you off your hand with air.

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These are great replies, thank you for your point of view.

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I don't want to give a free card (ever) if I only have one pair. If you play TAG, I think it's best just to bet that flop. You're making continuation bets, you're putting constant pressure on your opponents, sometimes you got the goods, sometimes you don't. Here, you got the goods, so just bet and let them make the tough decisions. You ended up having to make the tough decision here, and we want that shoe on the other foot.


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You are right - and i learned my lesson. But I think you misunderstood my post at hand. The free card i was refering to in my reply was the rivercard, not the turn card. In the actual hand, i DID give a free turncard. But in my alternative line, i bet the flop, and check behind on turn - as you commented above.

To continue the discussion wich is turning out to be very creative (at least for me /images/graemlins/crazy.gif) is to bring up the texture of the board.

On a more dangerous flop and turn - i wouldnt give any freecards. Lets say the flop is 8/images/graemlins/diamond.gif 9/images/graemlins/club.gif A/images/graemlins/diamond.gif and the turn is the 6/images/graemlins/club.gif. I'd come out betting on the turn.

But the thing we need to consider is the hands that villain would limp-call, Check-call on a dry board, and then check-call when another blank falls? I dont know about you, but check-call makes bells go off in my head. Am i just being paranoid? Sure enough - there is money to be earnt where a weaker ace might be calling you down, but betting the turn just to prevent a bluff from an otherwise passive opponent seems like wasted bullets. (and would air call that turnbet?) Inducing hands that you have beat to bet makes you money on the river and saves you money on the turn those times where he is sandbagging a monster.
And if he happens to check to me on the river, i can still valuebet what i figure to be the best hand as A8 would be looking for a showdown, and 55 wouldnt check to me on the river after I checked behind on the turn - afraid i wouldnt bet. ´

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I just want to be aggressive when I have position in a hand, and the bet flop, bet turn line works best for me as it compliments the other plays I like to make when I have position.

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I love this discussion and the "plays" you mention in your reply might shed some light on the would-be turn bet.

[SideCash]

What about calling the turn and calling reasonable size river bet? Does anyone think this is way to weak?

[Jimbio]

if villain would lead out on the turn - i'd raise to know where i stand, and/or to get a cheap showdown.

[ajmargarine]

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if villain would lead out on the turn - i'd raise to know where i stand, and/or to get a cheap showdown.

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I might be missing something here. /images/graemlins/crazy.gif So I might be off base. I'm assuming the above quote is talking about the line you took in the OP. Check flop and then raise a lead bet from villian 'to see where you stand.' Right? That's *one* of the reasons you bet the flop. To see where you stand. How villian reacts to your bet better defines his hand for you and you know better how you stand. As you played it in the OP, I think your best line is to just call his turn bet, and see what he does on the river, calling him down probably.

I think in our dialogue here sometimes we are talking about two different things. My bluff with air worry has to do with your line of checking the flop. /images/graemlins/smile.gif Anywho, my default is bet flop, bet turn. Against unknowns, that is what I am usually doing. If I feel I am missing value somewhere against certain opponents, I will mix it up. Bet flop, check turn with these kinds of hands is something I also do sometimes. That's one thing I am working on, as a matter of fact, getting more value out of my winning hands.

[Jimbio]

yeah, this thread got really complicated as the discussion we are having is about a turn where i have led the flop. But the OP is me checking the flop. Kinda gets confusing - OP being one thing / discussion is about another scenario. Been an interesting dialogue, will be exiting if the OP gets any more replies.

[Ranma4703]

Hero is [censored] because he didn't bet the flop, and thus doesn't know where he stands. Also, any 2 or 4 puts a 1 card straight out, AND if your opponent has any part of the flop, you want to bet before 1. an over card hits (if he has no ace and thinks you are c-betting) or 2. he hits a second pair and makes two pair. Hero folds and promises to never check behind with TPTK unless he is trying to keep the pot small or thinks he has already lost.