AKo.....Why is this wrong?

[Kwaz]

Party Poker 2/4 Hold'em (9 handed) FTR converter on zerodivide.cx (http://www.zerodivide.cx/converter)

Preflop: Hero is UTG+1 with A/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, K/images/graemlins/club.gif.
<font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises</font>, <font color="#666666">5 folds</font>, SB calls, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>.

Flop: (4 SB) A/images/graemlins/club.gif, Q/images/graemlins/heart.gif, 8/images/graemlins/spade.gif <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">SB bets</font>, Hero calls.

Turn: (3 BB) 3/images/graemlins/club.gif <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">SB bets</font>, Hero calls.

River: (5 BB) 7/images/graemlins/spade.gif <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">SB bets</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises</font>, <font color="#CC3333">SB 3-bets</font>, Hero calls.

Final Pot: 11 BB



Under what circumstances; when is it appropriate to wait 'til the river?

I think this hand is very similar to a post i made a back ago
http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/showthreaded.php?Cat=0&amp;Number=4098529&amp;page=

Deranged didn't seem to like it but i am still not totally convinced. The reason that i think it should be ok to wait with the raise is basically that no worse hand have the odds to draw to anything and the chance his flop bet is a bluff is very big, so a raise is very likely to induce a fold. And we don't want that if he doesn't have a better hand obviously.

So i'd like to hear some more oppinions about this myself.

[soon2bepro]

Raise the turn yo.

If he IS bluffing there is no need to give him another cheap card since he won't bet at it again at the river. He's not even likely to c/c the river with high cards since you raised from early position.
Have in mind that club draw out there. He may even have a gutshot like KT/KJ or JT. It's also a possibility that he has Ax. In this case he'll c/c the river if you call but will likely also do this if you raise. So there is not much of a point to wait 'till the river unless he's the kind of sucker that will bet into you three times with a pair other than ace in this spot but will fold to a turn raise.

If he 3-bets you @ turn calldown.

In the situation you give you're pretty much [censored]. Without knowing anything about him you'll have to call, but if he's decent it's probably a fold.

[GMMigge]

[ QUOTE ]
Under what circumstances; when is it appropriate to wait 'til the river?

[/ QUOTE ]

With AK and TPTK I can't think of many situations. Even if villain is aggressive and a habitual bluffer there's simply the risk of him just checking the river, and also, bet/folds on the turn are very rare at 2/4. I raise the turn every time against all opponents, expecting to get called down by worse hands most of the time, and get 3-bet by better hands (as you'll get on the river too).

I've been wrong before though /images/graemlins/smile.gif I suppose that if you have very specific reads on villain, like if he _is_ a habitual river bluffer, and he _does_ make bet/folds on the turn frequently, then I'll go with your line. But I believe that you in that case have to be sure about the reads, just because he has bet/folded the turn once before doesn't mean he'll do it this time.

[toss]

Usually against "betting stations" who aren't completely idiotic.

Like say Action Jackson raises fromt he Small Blind, we 3-bet on the BB with AKo, he calls. Flop comes A72r. He leads into us. Waiting till the river is an option. Why not raise the flop? Sure he'll call us down a lot, but we can make more if wait till a bigger street. Also we want him to bluff the river if he has air. Why not raise the turn? Well theres a small chance he'll fold a hand here that he'll call a river raise with. You know because he can't stand not showing down with a small pair HU for one bet on the river in a semi-large pot that he incorrectly built. Also we want him to bet the river if he's bluffing. That why we want to do take this line against a betting station.

We also require villain not to be a moron since we can usually extract multiple bets on the flop and turn versus such a player.

[NickPappagiorgio]

This hand is very similar to a section of HPFAP called "Waiting to Raise" on page 147. The board is a bit more coordinated in this hand but there aren't any glaringly huge draws either. What S &amp; M say is that you need to take into account your opponent and what kinds of hands he would be holding and betting. I'm not going to get into too much detail because we can all read if we have the book, but the idea is that we don't mind them betting middle pair or TPWK on the flop and turn (and maybe the river) because the pot is small and he doesn't have the odds to draw. A raise on the flop could get the villain to c/f the turn with MP. Also, if the villain has a big hand he may be less likely reraise on the river for fear of you slowplaying a monster.